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AI missile shennanigans?


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Simple BVR engagement: F-14B (there is an F-15C slot, but it was not occupied) against 2 Su-30s armed with R-27ER, -27ET, -77 and -73.

 

The enemy group fired a single R-27ER (not ET) at me. I turned ECM off as soon as they burned through (when the RWR started to make noise again). As I climbed and launched my Phoenix, the launching aircraft turns away by at least 90 degrees, and my RWR went silent and did not sound again. I remained hot on the bandit, climbed through ~45k AGL at M1.2 when the missile hit me.

 

I'm curious, what exactly was guiding it?

 

image.pngimage.png

SARH hit with no illuminator.trk Tacview-20210512-225539-DCS.zip.acmi Cacausus F14 vs 2 Sukhoi.miz

image.png


Edited by Nobody Special
Removed redundant image
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Looks like the Flanker detects your launch via AI Space Magic, goes defensive, and then decides to turn back hot. I imagine at this point it has locked on to you again and is supporting the missile. 

 

I have noticed that if an airborne emitter disappears from your RWR, either because they turned away or because you maneuvered in such a way to occlude one of the receivers, it takes some time for the RWR to generate the shot warning, if it does it at all. I don't know if this is a feature of the RWR, or a bug. I hope it's a bug. 

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23 hours ago, near_blind said:

Looks like the Flanker detects your launch via AI Space Magic, goes defensive, and then decides to turn back hot. I imagine at this point it has locked on to you again and is supporting the missile. 

 

I have noticed that if an airborne emitter disappears from your RWR, either because they turned away or because you maneuvered in such a way to occlude one of the receivers, it takes some time for the RWR to generate the shot warning, if it does it at all. I don't know if this is a feature of the RWR, or a bug. I hope it's a bug. 

 

Can R-27ER re-acquire like that? Regardless I'd think the RWR should be providing warning if I were locked.

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On 5/14/2021 at 11:27 PM, Nobody Special said:

Can R-27ER re-acquire like that? Regardless I'd think the RWR should be providing warning if I were locked.

 

SARH missiles in general have pretty generous conditions for reacquiring a lock right now (assuming they haven't been chaffed). The R-27ER might have some IRL features that also make it more capable in this regard. 

 

 

I was fooling around happened to witness an example the RWR behavior I was trying to describe
 


Tacview-20210516-154051-DCS.zip.acmi

 

In this I lose the lock warning when I over-rotate after my second shot, and I'm assuming occlude multiple antennae. The RWR seems to pick up the Fulcrum once I roll back out (I get a new contact tone and when I briefly glance at the RWR it shows a 29 emitter ahead), but I never get the lock tone again. 

The MiG-29 was never nose cold, and was locking me the entire way (as evidenced by the Alamo I end up eating). Like I said, I'm not sure if this is intended behavior or a bug. Maybe @IronMikecould chime in when he gets a chance. 

 

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  • 1 month later...
9 hours ago, SspectrumM said:

It's magic? it's science? what is it?

 

R-27.jpg

Home-on-jam? Did you have your self protection jammers on?

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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If it has home on jam capability then it will home in on your jammer emissions, like a passively guided missile. Hence, once in a burn-through range of an enemy radar, it's usually a good practice to turn-off your jammers.

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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14 hours ago, Nealius said:

HOJ is the missile capability on SARH? I thought it was a capability of the host aircraft's radar, meaning if if the host radar drops lock for whater reason a HOJ SARH will still go stupid. 

 

If there's a jammer (more specifically an OECM jammer - think noise/barrage jamming), the missile basically just acts as an ARM - it's not reliant on the host aircraft's RADAR at all.

 

Though most fighter aircraft probably only have DECM systems, which due to the techniques they use, would render HOJ missiles less effective (especially if the threat RADAR has been destroyed).


Edited by Northstar98
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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That being said, if you had maneuvered hard or/and put the missile on your 3-9 line while your jammer was still on, the missile would have had a decent chance of missing, either by running out of energy or being rate-defeated, this is because when in HOJ mode, the missile does not lead the target, but goes into pure pursuit, if the angle is high enough and missile energy is low enough, it simply will not be able to hit you.

 

That being said, it is still a good idea to turn off jamming, but just know your death is not an absolute certainty with jamming on. I've dodged HOJ missiles with barrel rolls and putting the missile on my 3-9 line. Give it a try with mission editor. 

 


Edited by WelshZeCorgi
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