bruh, you guys good?

[Spectre11]

Be assured the team is alive, work progresses and an update should not be too far away.

[F-2]

1 hour ago, WobblyFlops said:

That's not how they operated previously. They often posted updates, smaller, not really that noteable pictures, interviews or really anything to keep interacting with the community. There are dozens of people asking them on their IG if the project is dead. Even if there's nothing to report, I would imagine that it's in their best interest to squish any rumors, not to mention that previously they posted a lot and had great PR. People may not remember but there was another DCS Eurofighter in development ages ago (coincidentally it was also somewhat related to official training products) and in fact that was much further along in development than this one and the MOD still iced the project.

I thought the dev was just way in over their heads?

1 hour ago, WobblyFlops said:

That's not how they operated previously. They often posted updates, smaller, not really that noteable pictures, interviews or really anything to keep interacting with the community. There are dozens of people asking them on their IG if the project is dead. Even if there's nothing to report, I would imagine that it's in their best interest to squish any rumors, not to mention that previously they posted a lot and had great PR. People may not remember but there was another DCS Eurofighter in development ages ago (coincidentally it was also somewhat related to official training products) and in fact that was much further along in development than this one and the MOD still iced the project.

I thought the dev was just way in over their heads With the last attempt.

[Hummingbird]

3 hours ago, Spectre11 said:

Be assured the team is alive, work progresses and an update should not be too far away.

 

That's great to hear, thanks for the update Spectre 

[OPEC]

15 hours ago, Spectre11 said:

Be assured the team is alive, work progresses and an update should not be too far away.

 This. 

 

Don't forget - Its a german dev team. If there is nothing important to share, you wont be hearing anything. Thats just german efficency.

[THERION]

3 hours ago, OPEC said:

german efficency

 

Man, this term has been used so many times in the past and still is. I fear a bad outcome...

[OPEC]

Not really. What do you want them to do? Share a picture of the coding? 

 

You guys are so spoiled by devs like razbam posting a million screenshots that everyone is getting nuts if a dev is more silent than usual. I'd prefer silence and actually getting stuff done instead of posting stuff all over social media and not getting stuff done. 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 hours ago, OPEC said:

Not really. What do you want them to do? Share a picture of the coding? 

 

You guys are so spoiled by devs like razbam posting a million screenshots that everyone is getting nuts if a dev is more silent than usual. I'd prefer silence and actually getting stuff done instead of posting stuff all over social media and not getting stuff done. 

This .

 

S!

[ojanim]

5 hours ago, THERION said:

 

Man, this term has been used so many times in the past and still is. I fear a bad outcome...

 

In spite of being german myself every time I hear that sentence "german efficiency" I wish to have at least meet one person who would conform to this prejudice.

So, yes! Your fear would be justified.

Edited June 22, 2021 by ojanim

[WobblyFlops]

4 hours ago, OPEC said:

You guys are so spoiled by devs like razbam posting a million screenshots that everyone is getting nuts if a dev is more silent than usual. I'd prefer silence and actually getting stuff done instead of posting stuff all over social media and not getting stuff done. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with Razbam. TrueGrit themselves had a different approach to PR and communications and updates and it abruptly stopped. They don't communicate anywhere, they don't check this forum anymore and don't respond to anyone on their Instagram. Which in and of itself wouldn't be that strange if TG hadn't approached the whole topic of pre release communications completely differently before this sudden silence. It's possible that they don't have any news to share but the sudden and sharp shift in communications is definitely strange to some degree.

 

2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

getting stuff done instead of posting stuff all over social media and not getting stuff done

How long do you think it would take for the person who's in charge of the TG Instagram page to post a short little update stating that they are working on the project and they currently have no other news to share? It would make sense to do this after a sudden shift in communication. This project revolves around the most advanced and most capable aircraft that we're getting in DCS while having ties to the British MOD, who are paranoid enough to keep the English Electric Lightning still classified. The developers also announced the project way too early and their methods of gathering information legally can also be prone to failure. It's 100% within the cards that the Typhoon is not possible to develop after all, projects (not just in DCS) die all the time after the modelling is done to some degree and since it's so classified and they announced it so early, it's a very reasonable and logical conclusion to think that the project can die at any point.

 

Even releasing a module isn't a guarantee for anything, there is a highly detailed addon for another simulator that the developers had to stop selling it to the public due to ITAR concerns. Things like this happen all the time. 

 

23 hours ago, F-2 said:

I thought the dev was just way in over their heads?

 

Their communications regarding that incident stated that specifically the consumer version of the Typhoon had to be cancelled, presumably due to the MOD changing the deal. 

[OPEC]

26 minutes ago, WobblyFlops said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with Razbam.

 You do know what an example is, right? And Razbam is a prime example on how NOT to approach communication. Being all over social media, starting a hundred projects and not getting stuff done. 

 

Besides: TG don't owe you any communication. It's not like you can actually demand that. 

 

If i read some posts here it's like: "Oh they have to tell us everything they are doing." But that's not the case. It's their decision, like it or leave it. 

[OPEC]

50 minutes ago, ojanim said:

 

In spite of being german myself every time I hear that sentence "german efficiency" I wish to have at least meet one person who would conform to this prejudice.

So, yes! Your fear would be justified.

 

That would be me then.

[WobblyFlops]

2 minutes ago, OPEC said:

You do know what an example is, right?

My point about Razbam referred to the fact that what you attribute to them (communicating clearly, creating updates) also applied to TG for almost a year and they stopped it abruptly.

 

4 minutes ago, OPEC said:

Besides: TG don't owe you any communication. It's not like you can actually demand that. 

 

Straw man. What people argue here is that there are a lot of rational arguments that make the situation look concerning. Wishful thinking is irrelevant, if you rationally examine the situation and the facts you shouldn't be surprised if the project got axed for whatever reason.

[Rick50]

Typhoon is simply NOT a "simple" machine. Complex is almost an understatement.  It seems to take about a year, or more, to make a WW2 Warbird... for some reason I don't get, the Corsair is taking a long time to get to the runway!  But there's loads more weapons systems in the EF, each of which is more complex than it's predecessors. Then there is the complex display pages. The aerodynamics and flight model/characteristics will be at least as much a challenge as the Viper or Hornet, but with the unique canard specific flight representation to create test and validate.

 

It's gonna take some time, probably 2-4 years since starting, to get it to an Early Access state that's got truly minimal bugs/issues. The upside is, with their partnerships, accessing data in a friendly format, sorting through how to get around "secret" systems and still represent something plausibly realistic, would seem to make the job faster, maybe a little easier as there would be less guesswork involved. Hopefully their aerospace industry partners are actually serious about giving real help and access, and not simply lip-service "why do you keep bugging us? We gave you permission and a airshow brochure, what more do you want? Go away now."  It would be nice of the partners to let TG make laser scans of the exterior and interiors, give them details about all the "unclassified" display pages and generally how they work, and maybe a real but partial (omitting the classified stuff) flight envelope diagram and engine thrust performance chart...

 

Maybe eventually someone will make a map to go with this Eurobird, maybe looking something like this, so we can sneak through the valleys and fjords, surf the glaciers:

 

[OPEC]

10 minutes ago, WobblyFlops said:

What people argue here is that there are a lot of rational arguments that make the situation look concerning. Wishful thinking is irrelevant, if you rationally examine the situation and the facts you shouldn't be surprised if the project got axed for whatever reason.

Don't think so. If you look at the structure of the company and what's behind i would like to think that the EF we get in DCS is more a byproduct of an EF Simulation actually done for military customers, the Luftwaffe. 

 

I don't think it gonna be axed for financial reasons, since i believe that there are some quite financially potent company's or contractors behind that. 

 

But that's just guessing. 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by OPEC

[Ghostraider]

So it is, and its not only for the Luftwaffe but the things wich Rick50 wrote above are also true.

 

I can wait......

Edited June 22, 2021 by Ghostraider

[Hummingbird]

2 hours ago, ojanim said:

 

In spite of being german myself every time I hear that sentence "german efficiency" I wish to have at least meet one person who would conform to this prejudice.

So, yes! Your fear would be justified.

 

 

Germans are known to be perfectionists, which tends to work against efficiency in some areas  

 

So expect a quality product, just don't expect it to arrive in record time 

[MAXsenna]

Yup! Guess what car i drive.

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I would imagine that it's in their best interest to squish any rumors.

Why? Would they sell less when it comes without a hype?

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[Rick50]

1991 Polo ?

[Rick50]

3 hours ago, OPEC said:

I don't think it gonna be axed for financial reasons, since i believe that there are some quite financially potent company's or contractors behind that. 

 

Ah well hang on a sec...

 

Just because you have "partners", doesn't nessisarily mean there would be shared ownership,  shared financing or shared profits.  Remember, the Luftwaffe is govt, seen as taxpayer's money,  I'm guessing the Luftwaffe has a directive from govt that does not include taking profits, 

 

So say the Luftwaffe heard about this project, and got excited to get a super cheap sim, for the low low cost of sharing unclassified data. That's a HUGE win. But that doesn't mean the Luftwaffe, or other companies, are going to give True Grit money to complete the project. I'm doubting they'd get money, but who knows. The Luftwaffe maybe gets to pay for the same retail product as the rest of us. Or maybe they get the "Special version", where they can put in real numbers themselves into classified data. Maybe they pay TG a significant bonus upon delivery and product assesment.

 

Or maybe the partnership is simply: we give you access and info, you offer the final product to us for free, and make the profit off the civilian users, and the Luftwaffe signs up for a DCS account, and waits for the seasonal sales to save the German taxpayers money! 

 

Partnerships don't always mean money changes hands, usually yes, but not always. 

 

 

Ever heard of PPP projects? Public Private Partnerships. When a government, often regional or municipal, realises they don't have the resources to pay for a huge costly project that's desperately needed (say like a new very large bridge say 6 or 8 lanes), they will team up with a private financial company, say a bank or fund management, to get it done. So the bank gathers their money, hires a construction contracting company, and when the bridge is built, the govt and taxpayer haven't had to pay a thing! Beauty right? But since the bridge is owned by the bank... they monetize it by putting a toll price on using the bridge, and open an Onlyfanz account. Ok maybe not that last part. In the past, when a govt needed to use tolls to pay for a project, after say 20 or 30 years the toll would be eliminated. But since this is private for profit bank money, the toll likely won't go away ever, unless govt specifies this ahead of time. Also, the bank could adjust it's pricing as it sees fit unless specified by the govt whom it partnered with.  The upside is the govt still keeps the taxes for other things, but also gets the new fancy needed bridge. The downside is, some taxpayers will still be paying for it, and because it's toll based, those who use the bridge regularly will pay WAY WAY more than some local rich dude who never uses the bridge and doesn't pay the toll. This ends up penalising trades workers and trades companies, like plumbers, roofers, renovation construction crews a great deal more. But bridge and no tax increase. This MIGHT be a little bit how such a partnership could have materialised:  we give you data to help your quality and speedy completion, you give us cheap modules at $79usd, instead of buying from CAE for $5 million each.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Rick50

[MAXsenna]

1991 Polo ?

München.

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[rrohde]

Didn't we establish before that modules of this magnitude take about 3-5 years to be ready for the consumer? How long has it been since the DCS: Eurofighter was announced? Just wondering why we need constant reminders that patience is a virtue.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

1 hour ago, rrohde said:

Just wondering why we need constant reminders that patience is a virtue

Well, we can philosophize but apparently it has all the elements that use to be called postmodernity…

 

S!

[Rick50]

5 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

München.

 

Sorry, I saw yer post and just HAD to!  I actually rented a brand new Polo, in 1991, drove through France and Germany for two months with it! Was pretty good for a cheap rental when it was new... be awfully old nowdays though! We drove it to München, and also Paris. Good car... but no Porsche 911 Carerra!

 

[OPEC]

7 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

Ah well hang on a sec...

 

Just because you have "partners", doesn't nessisarily mean there would be shared ownership,  shared financing or shared profits.  Remember, the Luftwaffe is govt, seen as taxpayer's money,  I'm guessing the Luftwaffe has a directive from govt that does not include taking profits, 

 

So say the Luftwaffe heard about this project, and got excited to get a super cheap sim, for the low low cost of sharing unclassified data. That's a HUGE win. But that doesn't mean the Luftwaffe, or other companies, are going to give True Grit money to complete the project. I'm doubting they'd get money, but who knows. The Luftwaffe maybe gets to pay for the same retail product as the rest of us. Or maybe they get the "Special version", where they can put in real numbers themselves into classified data. Maybe they pay TG a significant bonus upon delivery and product assesment.

 

Or maybe the partnership is simply: we give you access and info, you offer the final product to us for free, and make the profit off the civilian users, and the Luftwaffe signs up for a DCS account, and waits for the seasonal sales to save the German taxpayers money! 

 

Partnerships don't always mean money changes hands, usually yes, but not always. 

 

 

Ever heard of PPP projects? Public Private Partnerships. When a government, often regional or municipal, realises they don't have the resources to pay for a huge costly project that's desperately needed (say like a new very large bridge say 6 or 8 lanes), they will team up with a private financial company, say a bank or fund management, to get it done. So the bank gathers their money, hires a construction contracting company, and when the bridge is built, the govt and taxpayer haven't had to pay a thing! Beauty right? But since the bridge is owned by the bank... they monetize it by putting a toll price on using the bridge, and open an Onlyfanz account. Ok maybe not that last part. In the past, when a govt needed to use tolls to pay for a project, after say 20 or 30 years the toll would be eliminated. But since this is private for profit bank money, the toll likely won't go away ever, unless govt specifies this ahead of time. Also, the bank could adjust it's pricing as it sees fit unless specified by the govt whom it partnered with.  The upside is the govt still keeps the taxes for other things, but also gets the new fancy needed bridge. The downside is, some taxpayers will still be paying for it, and because it's toll based, those who use the bridge regularly will pay WAY WAY more than some local rich dude who never uses the bridge and doesn't pay the toll. This ends up penalising trades workers and trades companies, like plumbers, roofers, renovation construction crews a great deal more. But bridge and no tax increase. This MIGHT be a little bit how such a partnership could have materialised:  we give you data to help your quality and speedy completion, you give us cheap modules at $79usd, instead of buying from CAE for $5 million each.

 

That's not what I'm talking about. If you do a little research you'll find out that there is a company called Adams Group behind it who are developing professional sims for professional users. That's what I meant: True Grit and the EF is probably only (again, guesswork) a byproduct from the Adams Group. 

 

Because of public private partnerships - that's not how it works in Germany. At least I've never heard of something like that in Germany. I'm certain that the Luftwaffe is not putting money into the project right now, but there are for shure private investors how would be interested to invest into a project like this. The market is there, the need for an easy to use, cheap VR Training possibility also. 

[MAXsenna]

 
Sorry, I saw yer post and just HAD to!  I actually rented a brand new Polo, in 1991, drove through France and Germany for two months with it! Was pretty good for a cheap rental when it was new... be awfully old nowdays though! We drove it to München, and also Paris. Good car... but no Porsche 911 Carerra!
 

Don't worry, I stuck my neck out, so it was pretty much expected. VAG makes decent cars too.

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