Launch Bar available?

[macrossMX]

Will the F4U come with a catapult launch bar?

 

I can only imagine the difficulty of launching a full a2g loadout just by rolling off the deck. Also I am sure some people may try to launch a Corsair off a Nimitz just for the fun of it or to simulate a skyraider.

[AG-51_Razor]

Fully loaded Corsairs and Skyraiders were routinely deck launched from Essex class carriers. The times when they used the catapults were when operating off of CVEs, or when the number of a/c on the deck of an Essex class carrier left not enough room for a deck launch. There should be no doubt at all of the Corsair's ability to launch from any carrier in DCS World without a. catapult, even the Tarawa with a little wind in the mission.

[71st_AH Rob]

Corsairs were not capable of using a launch bar like the modern Nimitz carriers we have use but used a Bridle. The Essex class carriers and Forestall carriers should have them and the early Nimitz carriers did, not sure which carries were the last equipped with them, but the carriers we have didn't. ED would need to make an exception or add the early Nimitz to launch Corsairs.

[Baco]

wel collosus carriers did launch Corsairs till late60s  

Edited May 24, 2021 by Baco

[AG-51_Razor]

On 5/22/2021 at 10:50 AM, 71st_AH Rob said:

Corsairs were not capable of using a launch bar like the modern Nimitz carriers we have use but used a Bridle. The Essex class carriers and Forestall carriers should have them and the early Nimitz carriers did, not sure which carries were the last equipped with them, but the carriers we have didn't. ED would need to make an exception or add the early Nimitz to launch Corsairs.

I was under the impression that the shuttle on the current Nimitz class carriers could accomodate a bridle but regardless, the Corsair would definitely not need to use it for takeoff even fully loaded.

[Raisuli]

On 5/22/2021 at 11:50 AM, 71st_AH Rob said:

Corsairs were not capable of using a launch bar like the modern Nimitz carriers we have use but used a Bridle. The Essex class carriers and Forestall carriers should have them and the early Nimitz carriers did, not sure which carries were the last equipped with them, but the carriers we have didn't. ED would need to make an exception or add the early Nimitz to launch Corsairs.

The enterprise was the last carrier to lose the bridle catchers, I believe.  Those were the big things that stuck out in front of the flight deck and 'caught' the bridles so they could be re-used.  As far as I know, and I am not a SME, any carrier could launch a bridle.  Once.  Because the bridle ends up at the bottom of the ocean.

 

The French do not re-use theirs last time I checked.

[Mogster]

With all these “bridles” littering the sea floor I wonder if future civilisations will be able to determine what they were used for...

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 6/3/2021 at 7:15 PM, Mogster said:

With all these “bridles” littering the sea floor I wonder if future civilisations will be able to determine what they were used for...

Wonder no more. Aluminium literally starts disappearing submerged in salt water due to a chemical reaction in about 70-80 years. They won't find a thing .

 

S!

[AG-51_Razor]

I'm pretty sure that the bridles in this case were not made of aluminium. They were steel braded rope with eyes swedged onto both ends.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:27 PM, AG-51_Razor said:

I'm pretty sure that the bridles in this case were not made of aluminium. They were steel braded rope with eyes swedged onto both ends.

The truth is, now I see, I misread "bridles" for "birdies" out of my dyslexia. Thought he meant the actual warbirds on the ocean's floor  .

 

S!

Edited June 10, 2021 by Ala13_ManOWar

[AG-51_Razor]

[macrossMX]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:50 AM, 71st_AH Rob said:

Corsairs were not capable of using a launch bar like the modern Nimitz carriers we have use but used a Bridle. The Essex class carriers and Forestall carriers should have them and the early Nimitz carriers did, not sure which carries were the last equipped with them, but the carriers we have didn't. ED would need to make an exception or add the early Nimitz to launch Corsairs.

 

The Forrestal Class that Heatblur is also working on has Bridle Catchers for launching older aircraft from Corsairs to Phantom IIs. I doubt Magnitude and Heatblur will collab to give that function to the Corsair, but we can hope they do.

[-Rudel-]

Actually both teams will need ED's support to usher in the new dynamics of it.  Especially to ensure cohesiveness for future projects by anyone.

 

It's not just the bridle, it's also the tensioner on the rear side, whether it's pulling on the hook, a tie down, or some other latch.

 

Another interesting dynamic for Essex carrier ops, is having the user know when to turn to line up on the cat.

Normal procedures were placing wood planks on the deck in such a way that the pilot would bump into them with the left or right main gear, knowing, "ok swing the tail now".  The tail wheel would also hit a plank, so the aircraft eventually lines up.

 

Here's a nice vid... starts at about 8:40

 

 

[VH-Rock]

On 6/15/2021 at 10:11 AM, -Rudel- said:

Actually both teams will need ED's support to usher in the new dynamics of it.  Especially to ensure cohesiveness for future projects by anyone.

 

It's not just the bridle, it's also the tensioner on the rear side, whether it's pulling on the hook, a tie down, or some other latch.

 

Another interesting dynamic for Essex carrier ops, is having the user know when to turn to line up on the cat.

Normal procedures were placing wood planks on the deck in such a way that the pilot would bump into them with the left or right main gear, knowing, "ok swing the tail now".  The tail wheel would also hit a plank, so the aircraft eventually lines up.

 

Here's a nice vid... starts at about 8:40

 

 

 

 

Really interesting video! Looking forward to some Corsair carrier ops!

[Mogster]

Launching that way looks very slow.

[VH-Rock]

18 hours ago, Mogster said:

Launching that way looks very slow.

 

I'm sure they could do this in just over 1 minute when the crew was operating at full capacity - really not too bad

[Andrew8604]

On 6/15/2021 at 2:11 AM, -Rudel- said:

Actually both teams will need ED's support to usher in the new dynamics of it.  Especially to ensure cohesiveness for future projects by anyone.

 

It's not just the bridle, it's also the tensioner on the rear side, whether it's pulling on the hook, a tie down, or some other latch.

 

Another interesting dynamic for Essex carrier ops, is having the user know when to turn to line up on the cat.

Normal procedures were placing wood planks on the deck in such a way that the pilot would bump into them with the left or right main gear, knowing, "ok swing the tail now".  The tail wheel would also hit a plank, so the aircraft eventually lines up.

 

Here's a nice vid... starts at about 8:40

 

 

 

Rudel,

Are you going to release a WWII-era Essex-class carrier to go with your F4U Corsair?

 

If so, any chance of a Fletcher-class destroyer and a Cleveland-class cruiser to go with it, for escorts?  Or do they need to be made by ED, or whoever made those detailed Perry-class frigates and Ticonderoga-class cruisers?

[Andrew8604]

 

On 6/16/2021 at 11:12 AM, Mogster said:

Launching that way looks very slow.

 

The video says it is slower than "fly-away takeoff", but a good catapult team should be able to launch aircraft at 45-second intervals.

 

I think they only launched the first few by catapult and then there would be deck space for fly-away takeoffs, depending on sufficient wind over the deck.

So, the deck would be loaded for a mission.  These escort carriers were about 500 feet long and capable of only about 19 knots.  Would probably set speed for 12 knots and turned into a  7-knot wind, for instance would give them about 19 knots wind-over-deck.  I don't know what the nominal wind-over-deck was.  There was probably a range with min and max.  Too much wind might make deck handling difficult?  In this training video, that officer on the island said there wasn't enough wind for fly-away takeoffs and that they'd have to use the catapult (those carriers only had one).  They carried 9 Avengers and 18 Wildcats, full load.  In the video, those are FM-1 Wildcats, which are General Motors license-built F4F-4's with only four 50-cal guns instead of six.  So they would place maybe 6 Avengers aft on the flight deck, wings folded, 4 abeam.  Then spot maybe 10 Wildcats in front of them, wings folded, and a couple Wildcats at the front of the pack with wings extended.  Might not be enough deck space for a fly-away takeoff, so the first 3 to 5 Wildcats would be catapulted.  After that, the remaining Wildcats might be able to make the fly-away takeoffs in quicker succession.  And then the bigger, heavier Avengers would make the fly-away takeoffs....deck cleared...6 Wildcats and 3 Avengers below on the hangar deck.  Those could be brought up for fly-away takeoffs, if needed.

So, the catapults likely weren't used to launch every plane.  Although, in the video they did because there wasn't enough wind.

 

When the planes returned, they would make arrested landings and be quickly taxied forward, wings folded and spotted at the very front of the flight deck.  Other aircraft were then taken below on the forward elevator, down to the hangar deck.  The carrier would either be in launch mode or recovery mode.  Could not launch and recover simultaneously.  Once all aircraft were recovered, they would be moved aft by the deck crews to get ready for the next mission, rearmed and refueled.  Those needing servicing were likely taken below to the hangar deck and replacements brought up to the flight deck.  There's another, related video on YouTube showing the recovery process.

 

If an aircraft returned to the carrier while it was not "spotted" for recovery, it would have to circle and wait, or if in emergency, either recover on another carrier, land on an airfield, bail out or ditch.

 

As there is a DCS module called Supercarrier, there should probably also be a module called WWII Carrier.  (I know there probably never will be, though).

[rkk01]

That will depend on / show how serious ED are about WW2 Pacific / Marianas…

 

… and if Mag3 are doing the Essex class that would pose a very interesting question of “what carrier” ED would need to offer to go with the much speculated Hellcat

 

CV-6 Enterprise / Yorktown class would be the most obvious choice, but Illustrious class would inject some variety and also be useful for ETO / MTO, maps allowing

 

 

 

 

[Harlikwin]

Yeah itl be curious as to how it all shakes out. The current naval stuff is pretty atrocious with the ship damage models as well. 

[Mogster]

On 7/5/2021 at 8:05 AM, rkk01 said:

That will depend on / show how serious ED are about WW2 Pacific / Marianas…

 

… and if Mag3 are doing the Essex class that would pose a very interesting question of “what carrier” ED would need to offer to go with the much speculated Hellcat

 

CV-6 Enterprise / Yorktown class would be the most obvious choice, but Illustrious class would inject some variety and also be useful for ETO / MTO, maps allowing

 

 

 

 

Med convoy Pedestal type scenarios with RN v Luftwaffe & Regia Aeronautica would be fantastic. Huge air battles. Some of the largest air v naval force engagements of WW2, but of course carriers v lots and lots of land planes.

[Cunctator]

What about launching sideways from the hangar deck? Apparently most HIVA catapult were already removed from the ships that have had them by the time Essex class ships were operating F4U squadrons and not sure if this was ever done outside of training, but it certainly looks challenging and if the Hellcat is indeed coming to DCS...

[Andrew8604]

Whether launch bar or steel-cable bridle, the physics are a force applied to the aircraft for a set distance.  For the post WWII, H-8 hydraulic catapults, that was up to 15,500 lbs for 150 feet of stroke, which took 1.69 seconds reaching a top end-of-run speed of 105 knots.  For steam catapults, the length of stroke, force and speed attained are greater.  For launch bar, the aircraft is pulled by its reenforced nosewheel strut.  For bridle launch, the aircraft is pulled by a cable wrapped around the catapult shuttle horn and each end attached to launch hooks on the underside of the aircraft or in its main-gear wheel wells.  In DCS, force is applied to the aircraft to accelerate it to given speed in the given stroke distance.  Whether launch bar or bridle cable is simply cosmetic, except for possibly where and at what angle the force is applied.

The Essex-class carriers' catapults used a launch bridle.  Interestingly, the Essex, CV-9, as originally built, had no catapults on its flight deck.  Just one on the hangar deck, as the post above shows an example of.  8 of the 24 Essex-class had 1 catapult on the flight deck and the other 15 had 2 catapults.  These were all H-4 hydraulic catapults, I believe.  In the early 50s, the H-4's were changed out for H-8 on 8 units and C-11 steam catapults on 7 others.  For the other 9, they kept what they had from WWII, I believe.  3 of those 9 ships that were designated LPH's (helicopter carriers) in the early 60s may have had their catapults removed.

[AG-51_Razor]

My Dad was the first Flight Deck officer for the new Yorktown CV-10, a plank holder, and said that this hanger deck catapult was used just a time or two during the shake down cruise to prove that it worked but never again. He told me that the pilot that went out that hanger door had told him it was the most terrifying thing he had ever done as a Naval Aviator!!

[streakeagle]

I never knew they had hangar deck catapults. Like Vipers launching from Battlestar Galactica. That should have been the normal way they launched to leave the deck free for landing/parking.