Canapy Reflections destroys combat.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

1 hour ago, KAKTYC_11 said:

  For me your excuses  sound -stupid , like : "We create soviet plane , but with pit color of banana republic  !" (i dont mean Bulgaria , but the sence is that ) You can make any color you want even banana , but after creating historic original - Turquoise . Cause first of all MIG-21 is Soviet plane & its iconoic for people who live on the territory of former USSR  ! 

 

Yeah, perhaps you're newer than the module around here, but, if you followed any of the original development, the MiG-21Bis we have was done thanks to a Croatian (was it Croatian?) pilot and data they could pull out from that air force, no matter where the aeroplane was originally built. Even I remember a thread where some of the devs got into an airbase with the pilot we talk about, and made it to the -21 simulator there to much concern of some commanders unaware of the module and wondering how on Earth did the guy there know so much about their front line fighter… and that was, luckily for them, with the guy himself who helped them, go ask other airforces to share their data on their aircraft. Right now I haven't a clue what the cockpit of Croatian MiGs did or do look like (I can recall some grey but that could be Rumanian ones), but devs got their sources from where they could, not where you would like 7 years later. If you have any better info please don't hesitate to help devs with it as well as enlightening all of us, spoiler-> a couple pics from Google aren't source enough. Remember high quality sims like DCS are based on sources, and not always they have access to the sources they would like. If you like the green cockpit (I do) there are mods out there without the need of spreading any crazy logic, conspiracy theories, or insults. All of that info is on these very same forums, one has only to search and read.

 

S!

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ala13_ManOWar

[m4ti140]

Currently there are 2 sets of reflections it seems, baked in and dynamic, at the same time. Particularly visible on the ASP glass, with the baked in reflection of the projector that looks out of place with fixed net on. Don't think there are any on canopy though, though dynamic ones are excessive.

The dynamic reflections on windshield in particual don't make sense, instead of reflecting the top of the dash which is monotonic plate and would barely be visible, it reflects the instruments it has no line of sight to.

Edited May 24, 2021 by m4ti140

[Schmidtfire]

3 hours ago, rossmum said:

Perspex will throw some quite obnoxious reflections, especially in the right lighting conditions. It doesn't need any sort of coating, that's just how it is. As they are right now they're maybe a little too opaque, but they're not nearly as exaggerated as people are making out and while in real life you can focus your eyes past them, I haven't found them to "destroy combat". The most common reason I lose sight of people remains my own canopy bars, followed by visual clutter like trees or buildings, followed by (a new contender) cloud shadows. As I said in the other thread: if you think this is bad, be glad the canopy isn't nearly as scuffed or crazed as most real aircraft canopies are after a decade or two of service, and be glad you don't have to deal with distortion at all. Or bug guts, when flying low level in the summer.

 

I seriously hope the reflections aren't toned down too far, DCS already has enough issues with "I want realism, but not like this" any time a feature hampers a player's ability to perform, or makes them feel like it's hampering them.

I have not read anywhere that reflections from MiG-21 did affect the pilots the way they affect the average DCS player. If it was a well documented issue on the MiG-21 in real life, please make it as reflective as you want. Loads of scratches... again, was this a real problem IRL? Many different countries operated the MiG-21, but we have to assume that most tried to keep the canopy as protected as possible. The cost of loosing pilot and aircraft because a bad canopy is just too steep. I agree that the vision out of MiG-21 was known to be bad, but it has more to do with the overall design.

As for realism, it is highly subjective when it comes to vision and perception. Both of us are sticklers for realism, but we have two different approaches to the same subject.        

[rossmum]

6 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

I have not read anywhere that reflections from MiG-21 did affect the pilots the way they affect the average DCS player.    

 

Because they would have had the exact same experience in any other aircraft, so it's not even worth mentioning. In the real world, perspex does not magically change its physical properties based on what jet it's installed in. In DCS, it does, because different developers used different materials with different properties in their modules. As it is, the reason we have reflections in the 21's cockpit is due to a material change, because it originally didn't use the same material as ED's modules (which is the one said reflections have been applied to in 2.7).

 

I don't want to pull the "how many people here have flight hours" thing, but honestly... you guys do realise we're not dealing with automotive glass here, right? Go look at photos of actual cockpits. Go watch gopro videos recorded from pilot's perspectives. Go sit in the things yourselves. We're finally approaching some semblance of realism with regards to visibility in DCS, and people are tripping over themselves to call it "unrealistic" because they think it makes them less likely to be able to spot and kill someone in a dogfight.

 

 

I'm trying not to sound overly snarky but this discussion is taking a pretty ridiculous direction... I wonder if our pilot here filed a complaint with Stavka VVS upon landing. "Canopy is too reflective, destroys combat".

[Hadwell]

7 hours ago, rossmum said:

 

 

I'm trying not to sound overly snarky but this discussion is taking a pretty ridiculous direction... I wonder if our pilot here filed a complaint with Stavka VVS upon landing. "Canopy is too reflective, destroys combat".

I agree, they aren't THAT bad, I still don't like them, it rarely, if ever, has prevented me from seeing someone, at least not as bad as the old dirty glass... it does seem wrong though i can't put my finger on why, that's what i mean by unrealistic, they seem fuzzy/pixelated, maybe there's too much light?...

[rossmum]

They are pretty pixellated, and there are black bands that seem to cut across them - probably a limit of how the reflections are executed. Not sure if that'll be tweaked in future. It's probably more noticeable in the 21 because they are fairly strong.

[Schmidtfire]

A Gopro does not mimic human vision, it is a single lens camera with tiny latitude. It is not a good example for a reference.
Im not saying you are wrong, I have sat in a couple of jets in museums, but not up in the air under a beating sun.
My stance is that it should be adjusted in relation to us watching on a 2D monitor, with varying resolutions and options

enabled.The reflections are also of quite poor quality render wise. That is fine when they are subtle, but very noticeable
when they are as strong as now.

Anyways, looks like they have been adjusted and tweaked for next update. Im pretty sure this discussion will continue then 
   

Edited May 25, 2021 by Schmidtfire

[rossmum]

I can tell you from personal experience that a GoPro may not have the exact same optical qualities as a human eye, but it is a close enough approximation for discussion's sake, either that or my human eyes need more tuning than I thought. Bright sunlight in particular throws really strong reflections and even a less extreme curve than most single-seaters use will produce visible distortion in places (not modelled in DCS, or any sim I know of). You also get quite nasty glare with some canopies as the sun catches tiny cracks and scratches at just the right angle and produces what could best be described as a giant illuminated scuffmark.

 

I learnt to fly in a very sunny place in a plane with a perspex half-bubble, I haven't got any seat time in any military types but perspex is perspex. I wouldn't be pushing back so strongly on this if I didn't have good reason to believe I'm right.

[CoBlue]

3 hours ago, rossmum said:

I can tell you from personal experience that a GoPro may not have the exact same optical qualities as a human eye, but it is a close enough approximation for discussion's sake, either that or my human eyes need more tuning than I thought. Bright sunlight in particular throws really strong reflections and even a less extreme curve than most single-seaters use will produce visible distortion in places (not modelled in DCS, or any sim I know of). You also get quite nasty glare with some canopies as the sun catches tiny cracks and scratches at just the right angle and produces what could best be described as a giant illuminated scuffmark.

 

I learnt to fly in a very sunny place in a plane with a perspex half-bubble, I haven't got any seat time in any military types but perspex is perspex. I wouldn't be pushing back so strongly on this if I didn't have good reason to believe I'm right.

So did I, got 1500h GA, flown over CA & I never experienced any glass-reflections that hindered my vision outside like in the 21. The reflections are overdone.

Have you tried dogfighting PvP & A2G with the 21 over coastal area? It's impossible to keep eyes on bandit or target, so there's a big problem. Or are you just doing sighting flights & don't notice?

[Skysurfer]

6 hours ago, CoBlue said:

So did I, got 1500h GA, flown over CA & I never experienced any glass-reflections that hindered my vision outside like in the 21. The reflections are overdone.

Have you tried dogfighting PvP & A2G with the 21 over coastal area? It's impossible to keep eyes on bandit or target, so there's a big problem. Or are you just doing sighting flights & don't notice?

 

GA glass is also different from fighter jet canopy glass and 99% of GA aircraft don't have a bubble or frame canopy (DA-40 or RV-8 being somewhat closer). These types of reflections are very much a thing in real life and can vary greatly in intensity based on lighting conditions - however, in a real jet you have depth perception and can focus your eyes on the outside, alleviating most of these effects. They still can be a problem at times though and having used the current build 21 in PvP, dogfights etc. I did not find the reflections to be too much of a hiderance in terms of spotting or keeping sight (unless you have a hard time with that to begin with or your settings make it worse). Spotting in general can be fairly sketch against the ground or water in DCS, with planes seemingly disappearing out of existence at times but 2.7 seems to have generally gotten better in that regard.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Charly_Owl]

The reflections look pretty realistic to me.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Charly_Owl

[rossmum]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:41 PM, CoBlue said:

So did I, got 1500h GA, flown over CA & I never experienced any glass-reflections that hindered my vision outside like in the 21. The reflections are overdone.

Have you tried dogfighting PvP & A2G with the 21 over coastal area? It's impossible to keep eyes on bandit or target, so there's a big problem. Or are you just doing sighting flights & don't notice?

 

Considering most of what I've been doing in DCS for the past two years has been PvP over cities and coastal areas in the MiG-21, I'll let you guess the answer to that last bit

[some1]

There are several things that will always make the reflections in DCS, or any other computer game, not quite realistic.

 

1. In real life the reflections and dirt on the glass are close to your eyes, while if you look outside your eyes are focused on the far plane, and the reflections appear as just a blur. That's why you can drive your car around in a sunny day or with a dirty windshield and not notice this stuff much. In computer graphics everything is focused at the same distance, no matter if you use 2D or VR. This makes anything painted on a windshield more noticeable.

 

2. Pilot's body and helmet is a big thing that blocks a lot of sun in a small fighter cockpit. In DCS half of the aircraft does not even have pilot body modelled, and those that do, don't have the head casting shadow. I think Razbam is the only exception where we have the shadow of pilot's helmet. I don't think the shadows affect the new dynamic reflections much though. I have clouds and sun reflecting on the radar display in the MiG-21 even though the part is in permanent shadow. 

 

3. In real life the pilot can use his hand, and just block the sun. Of course not always and not in every situation, depends on cockpit geometry too. 

 

So just because something looks pretty on a youtube video, doesn't mean this is what a pilot sees and perceives with his eyes. 

[Schmidtfire]

All good points.

Probably not possible, but it would be quite cool if the helmet visor could lower amount of canopy reflections when in use.
Giving it a bit more purpose in the sim. Maybe not the most technically realistic approach, but it will give perception of realism. 

 

[CoBlue]

mods deleate

Edited May 29, 2021 by CoBlue
Whole post just dissapeared

[CoBlue]

On 5/27/2021 at 5:36 AM, Charly_Owl said:

The reflections look pretty realistic to me.

It's camera angle not what pilot sees, see below.

15 hours ago, some1 said:

There are several things that will always make the reflections in DCS, or any other computer game, not quite realistic.

 

1. In real life the reflections and dirt on the glass are close to your eyes, while if you look outside your eyes are focused on the far plane, and the reflections appear as just a blur. That's why you can drive your car around in a sunny day or with a dirty windshield and not notice this stuff much. In computer graphics everything is focused at the same distance, no matter if you use 2D or VR. This makes anything painted on a windshield more noticeable.

 

2. Pilot's body and helmet is a big thing that blocks a lot of sun in a small fighter cockpit. In DCS half of the aircraft does not even have pilot body modelled, and those that do, don't have the head casting shadow. I think Razbam is the only exception where we have the shadow of pilot's helmet. I don't think the shadows affect the new dynamic reflections much though. I have clouds and sun reflecting on the radar display in the MiG-21 even though the part is in permanent shadow. 

 

3. In real life the pilot can use his hand, and just block the sun. Of course not always and not in every situation, depends on cockpit geometry too. 

 

So just because something looks pretty on a youtube video, doesn't mean this is what a pilot sees and perceives with his eyes. 

Exactly,

 

Most cameras are placed close to canopy glass at an angle far from pilot eyes, making canopy appear like a mirror, but that's not what the pilot sees, just like in the car pic, it's not what driver sees.

 

Vidd 1: Camera shifts between pilot helmet, very little reflections & back cockpit view, obvious difference. Vidd 2: camera very close to pilot eyes, hardly any reflections.

 

[Docsnuggles]

On 5/27/2021 at 5:36 AM, Charly_Owl said:

The reflections look pretty realistic to me.

 

 

 

 

if you think it is realistic to have a reflection of the stick in the hud - well, ok.

On 5/27/2021 at 5:36 AM, Charly_Owl said:

The reflections look pretty realistic to me.

 

 

the side reflections ok - but how do you get a reflection of the stick in the hud? realistic? (in DCS)