Hind tempting, obviously, but what exactly are we going to do with it?

[Steel Jaw]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Hardly ... that's why I don't do Multiplayer 

 

Depends upon the server, but I grant you many of the servers are completely uncivilized and polluted with Air Quakers.

[Baaz]

4 hours ago, Mower said:

 

Depends upon the server, but I grant you many of the servers are completely uncivilized and polluted with Air Quakers.

Far, far too true.   I use to play heavily on servers like DDCS and BlueFlag.  But with the arrival of the 18, 14, and 16, I haven't touched those servers one bit.  I now stick to cold war servers, Vietnam era stuff.  F-5, Huey, and a LOT of A-4 is my game now.  The Hind will be a welcomed addition.  

[Gierasimov]

With limited ground AI but still fun to setup I already started crafting small land battle, with BTR-80 APC dropping troops (each carries 7 soldiers in DCS) and then storming a village full of enemy elements. Its quite fun already, with RPGs, mortars, small arms fire, some MANPADS. It plays quite nice and of course I will support this assault with my Hind.

I have no concerns, and most likely it will take me about 50 flight hours before I can actually use it effectively in combat.

[Nealius]

20 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

The idea of wide area suppression and shock tactics being more it's thing. I.e. difficult to coordinate in DCS.

 

This is the part that concerns me. Exception to the ATGMs, which I believe are only usable from the front seat, the main weapons are unguided rockets and the gun. As you said, suppression. The DCS ground AI has no "fear" logic, and has perfect LOS through smoke, making suppression rather nonexistent at the moment. 

 

The Su-25A is in rather the same situation, with the majority of its weaponry being unguided rockets with a similar doctrine of area suppression for CAS and interdiction roles. I've tried to employ it in missions/campaigns multiple times only to be frustrated because the AI units don't react to suppression, and mobility kills are not modeled.

 

From a game perspective, the Hind is going to be hard to employ without significant scripting in the missions. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Nealius

[CrazyGman]

9 hours ago, Mower said:

 

Depends upon the server, but I grant you many of the servers are completely uncivilized and polluted with Air Quakers.

Just be careful. The Mi-24 can bring 4 R-60m's, (sometime in early access) and carry a ton of counter measures. If Gazelles can swat down Hornets in multiplayer just think what some sneaky Hind pilots can do.

[Grievo]

14 hours ago, Chapelmaggot said:

Maybe I'm not educated enough to add to this thread so please excuse my somewhat uneducated opinion, but I feel like improvement to ground troops is necessary for the Hind to reach its full potential. We need more infantry, we need terrorists, we need small militia groups and insurgents (I'm talking about the 3d models here) but mainly, we need better AI. AI that's scared, intimidated, AI that will retreat, maybe even surrender. We need AI that "thinks" (or at least feels like it thinks) and acts depending on their chances of victory. Ground unit behavior and ground combat needs to be improved upon greatly to get the most out of the Hind. Don't get me wrong, I'm still excited as ever to get to fly the damn thing but I feel like these are some features that need to be worked on. I've always felt this way, even a few years back. One day it'll all come true, I'm sure. I just felt the need to say this cause it's SUCH a necessity for even more immersive combat, especially for a multirole(-ish) chopper like the Hind. That would be the next step towards an all-round amazing battlefield simulation and it would greatly improve the Hind's versatility in combat.

 

 

I agree, but the keywords being "full potential", I think we can sort something fairly entertaining with what we have.

 

Ideally, for helicopters in DCS we need a big improvement to infantry, if you guys will forgive me my hobbyhorse. We need infantry that can move, go prone, crouch, move around tree's and building to stay in cover, retreat from open areas into urban/forested areas etc. We need infantry scripting that allows for advancing to contact, or breaking contract, so we can provide fire support for that retreating or attacking element. We need infantry in foxholes, observation posts, trenches, machine gun pits etc. For the transport helos we need infantry carrying casualties, or stretcher bearers. Infantry that dismounts the aircraft in a vaguely tactical pattern, rather than like they've just got off the bus. We also need a variety of models, insurgents, soldiers from practically all factions in the game, downed pilots, damsels in distress, life rafts and and people in life jackets. 

 

There is HUGE potential for DCS helicopters, and one of the main SP limitations is the lack of depth to the personnel/infantry models. The vehicles are great, look amazing and behave reasonably well, but helicopters support INFANTRY primarily, and we would see a great boost to campaigns and single player missions, or even multiplayer scenarios if we had this investment in the infantry AI and models.

[Charly_Owl]

15 hours ago, Mower said:

Target for my Hornet...carry on

 

Despite all their shiny toys, Hornet drivers can't capture airfields or FARPs in Blue Flag...

 

I see modules in terms of mission capability, not airquake potential. This is where the cool missions are at.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Charly_Owl

[AvroLanc]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

This is the part that concerns me. Exception to the ATGMs, which I believe are only usable from the front seat, the main weapons are unguided rockets and the gun. As you said, suppression. The DCS ground AI has no "fear" logic, and has perfect LOS through smoke, making suppression rather nonexistent at the moment. 

 

The Su-25A is in rather the same situation, with the majority of its weaponry being unguided rockets with a similar doctrine of area suppression for CAS and interdiction roles. I've tried to employ it in missions/campaigns multiple times only to be frustrated because the AI units don't react to suppression, and mobility kills are not modeled.

 

From a game perspective, the Hind is going to be hard to employ without significant scripting in the missions. 

 

 

Exactly. This is kinda what I meant. Unfortunately DCS AI, particularly infantry and other soft target AI isn't good enough at the moment to support many attack helicopter roles, other than pure anti-armour.

This will be an issue for Apache as well, although not as pronounced, as the pure precision of an incoming Hellfire doesn't rely on a suppression or splash damage effect. And they are lots of authentic scenarios where an anti-armour mission is a classic use case of that Helo. Unlike Hind.

Perhaps when the damage model of modern ground units is looked at things will improve....I honestly think that will enhance the gameplay a-hundred fold in the future. That and wingman AI.

 

I've just taken the Mi-8 up for a spin and re-learnt what I feared - using rockets and gunpods in the current helicopters is a lesson in frustration, they need a direct hit to be effective.

Edited May 29, 2021 by AvroLanc

[Chapelmaggot]

6 hours ago, Grievo said:

 

I agree, but the keywords being "full potential", I think we can sort something fairly entertaining with what we have.

 

Ideally, for helicopters in DCS we need a big improvement to infantry, if you guys will forgive me my hobbyhorse. We need infantry that can move, go prone, crouch, move around tree's and building to stay in cover, retreat from open areas into urban/forested areas etc. We need infantry scripting that allows for advancing to contact, or breaking contract, so we can provide fire support for that retreating or attacking element. We need infantry in foxholes, observation posts, trenches, machine gun pits etc. For the transport helos we need infantry carrying casualties, or stretcher bearers. Infantry that dismounts the aircraft in a vaguely tactical pattern, rather than like they've just got off the bus. We also need a variety of models, insurgents, soldiers from practically all factions in the game, downed pilots, damsels in distress, life rafts and and people in life jackets. 

 

There is HUGE potential for DCS helicopters, and one of the main SP limitations is the lack of depth to the personnel/infantry models. The vehicles are great, look amazing and behave reasonably well, but helicopters support INFANTRY primarily, and we would see a great boost to campaigns and single player missions, or even multiplayer scenarios if we had this investment in the infantry AI and models.

YES! I agree with everything you said 100%. I do believe the Hind is going to be amazing either way but obviously I'd love to see major improvements to infantry and ground units. That would elevate the Hind from amazing to really amazing. I totally agree! 

[Moriarty]

5 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

 

I've just taken the Mi-8 up for a spin and re-learnt what I feared - using rockets and gunpods in the current helicopters is a lesson in frustration, they need a direct hit to be effective.

 

This is true. The implied task for ED is to correct it, and thinking back to the days of Blackshark standalone about 10-11 years ago, it should be getting close to the top of their to-do list by now.

[gnomechild]

6 hours ago, Charly_Owl said:

 

Despite all their shiny toys, Hornet drivers can't capture airfields or FARPs in Blue Flag...

 

I see modules in terms of mission capability, not airquake potential. This is where the cool missions are at.

 

Yup. Thinking about flying the Hind in a server like Blueflag, or any server with a good implementation of CTLD and base capturing is super exciting. Also, IT'S A FREAKING HIND!! 

[CoBlue]

Rockets, bombs, CMs will be ineffective against light armor, if not a direct hit, coz of simplistic splash damage. They are basically dead-weight in DCS . Gun is 250 rounds, so the joy will be short lived. Try the gun in Su-25 & see. Then you have all seeing sniper AI...we all know how the helis thrive in the current DCS environment.

It maybe will be good at anti-tank, I dunno, not counting on it, Mi-8pilot said the periscope sight will be challenging.

 

In semi-realistic combat environment it will be very weak. If you like sighting in multi-crew & shooting at cows it will be a beast .

 

Yeah my expectations are very low, better that way, so if it turns out better it will be a bonus!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by CoBlue

[Nealius]

That's basically it, really. If anyone wants a glimpse of what it will be like to fight in the Hind, take the Ka-50 or Su-25A/T in missions or campaigns with only S-5 or S-8 rockets, and see how effective it will be. 

[Gierasimov]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

That's basically it, really. If anyone wants a glimpse of what it will be like to fight in the Hind, take the Ka-50 or Su-25A/T in missions or campaigns with only S-5 or S-8 rockets, and see how effective it will be. 

This. Exactly what it did.

Liked it very much too.

[AvroLanc]

4 hours ago, CoBlue said:

Rockets, bombs, CMs will be ineffective against light armor, if not a direct hit, coz of simplistic splash damage. They are basically dead-weight in DCS . Gun is 250 rounds, so the joy will be short lived. Try the gun in Su-25 & see. Then you have all seeing sniper AI...we all know how the helis thrive in the current DCS environment.

It maybe will be good at anti-tank, I dunno, not counting on it, Mi-8pilot said the periscope sight will be challenging.

 

In semi-realistic combat environment it will be very weak. If you like sighting in multi-crew & shooting at cows it will be a beast .

 

Yeah my expectations are very low, better that way, so if it turns out better it will be a bonus!

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Nealius said:

That's basically it, really. If anyone wants a glimpse of what it will be like to fight in the Hind, take the Ka-50 or Su-25A/T in missions or campaigns with only S-5 or S-8 rockets, and see how effective it will be. 

 

2 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

This. Exactly what it did.

Liked it very much too.

 

 

100% true, although I have no doubt that flying the Hind will feel awesome and fun for the first few hours. I'm immensely looking forward to it.

 

However, we do have to accept that game mechanics in DCS are currently biased towards dropping smart munitions from high flying fast jets, and its whole eco-system over the last few years has been geared towards that. Hornet, Viper, Tomcat, JF-17, Supercarrier and others. Without heavy scripting the SP experience won't feel as real or immersive, and the employment of a relatively low tech helo will have many frustrations. I'll still buy it though.....but that's a whole other issue.

[Stratos]

18 hours ago, Grievo said:

Ideally, for helicopters in DCS we need a big improvement to infantry, if you guys will forgive me my hobbyhorse. We need infantry that can move, go prone, crouch, move around tree's and building to stay in cover, retreat from open areas into urban/forested areas etc. We need infantry scripting that allows for advancing to contact, or breaking contract, so we can provide fire support for that retreating or attacking element. We need infantry in foxholes, observation posts, trenches, machine gun pits etc. For the transport helos we need infantry carrying casualties, or stretcher bearers. Infantry that dismounts the aircraft in a vaguely tactical pattern, rather than like they've just got off the bus. We also need a variety of models, insurgents, soldiers from practically all factions in the game, downed pilots, damsels in distress, life rafts and and people in life jackets. 

 

Agree 100% we really need a complete rethinking of how the DCS infantry behaves + better damage from fragmentation. Also mobility/mission kills are also a must. 

Some months ago I asked for a "dumb" infantry making it less sniper, they said that they will think about it, no news yet.

[Fri13]

9 minutes ago, Stratos said:

 

Agree 100% we really need a complete rethinking of how the DCS infantry behaves + better damage from fragmentation. Also mobility/mission kills are also a must. 

Some months ago I asked for a "dumb" infantry making it less sniper, they said that they will think about it, no news yet.

Would be nice to have the infantry skill actually be sensible for accuracy. 

Untrained is like hitting a man size target at 150 meters to 1-2 meters, while excellent skill is for head size area.

 

Similar to compensate for flmoving target, a lowest is missing by 5-7 meters lagging. While expert is hitting half a body area off.

 

We need a system for AI to not know target real distance automatically. So they misjudge range by 50-100 meters at ground and for air targets it can be hundreds of meters off. So they can have proper lead for helicopter flying by but miss because range was estimated 600 when it was 1000 meters. So flying toward makes you easier target than flying past.

 

Flying near untrained infantry is not so dangerous than flying toward a well trained special forces with years experience.

 

 

 

[lmp]

I think the problem is less with fragmentation damage simulation and more with the rudimentary ground unit AI. The AI doesn't panic under fire but also doesn't disperse, take cover, fight back effectively. This decreases the effectiveness of area effect weaponry and at the same time increases the effectiveness of PGMs. You can't force an enemy to retreat with rocket attacks, which is bad, but you can park your Kamov a few kms behind the front line and plink away a whole company of tanks with Vikhrs, which is even worse. Sure, a better damage model would perhaps allow for a few mission or mobility kills here and there, but the real strength of tactical aviation is not it's amazing killing potential (particularly against armour the effectiveness of air attacks has been routinely and greatly overestimated) but rather the tactical and psychological effect it has on the troops.

[cfrag]

2 hours ago, Stratos said:

 

Agree 100% we really need a complete rethinking of how the DCS infantry behaves + better damage from fragmentation. Also mobility/mission kills are also a must. 

Some months ago I asked for a "dumb" infantry making it less sniper, they said that they will think about it, no news yet.

 

Forget all that, ED must first increase the AI of ground troops over that of the common fruitfly. In preparation for my Hind adventures, I've written a couple of Huey missions where you pick up and drop commandos (6-8 per squad) to clear areas and take airfields. They do nothing fancy: after being dropped, they just try detect enemy units (600m range), and then move towards and engage them. 

 

The result would be utterly comic if it wasn't so depressing. In Syria, my troops, after being dropped, look for, and find their adversaries. Next step: in orderly fashion (first number 1, then 2, and so forth), they start running towards the enemy group they want to engage. 30% of the group dies to enemy fire while they wait for their turn to start moving. Ouch. The surviving troops then move over the ground, and, yes, occasionally take a shot at the enemy. Until they reach their destination, at which point they just stand and look around, poking their noses. Infuriatingly, the enemy units (also infantry) usually stand less than 10 feet away, separated only by a slender olive tree. Those units are equally content at doing nothing. Heck, from my time at the military I know you can frigging smell your opponent at that distance. But no, everyone is content to overlook each other, just stand there, doing nothing but navel gazing, and have not a care in the world. They are definitely not looking nor engaging their opponents that's in frigging kicking distance. 

 

To make matters worse, when I had enough and come in to pick up the troops again, the enemy guys can shoot at me, while my own troops grin at the fireworks, doing nothing.

 

With this kind of AI it'll be really, really difficult to write good HIND missions. ED seriously needs to polish Infantry AI so we can use this whirly-bird to its potential.

 

 

[Fri13]

52 minutes ago, cfrag said:

 But no, everyone is content to overlook each other, just stand there, doing nothing but navel gazing, and have not a care in the world. They are definitely not looking nor engaging their opponents that's in frigging kicking distance. 

 

To make matters worse, when I had enough and come in to pick up the troops again, the enemy guys can shoot at me, while my own troops grin at the fireworks, doing nothing.

 

With this kind of AI it'll be really, really difficult to write good HIND missions. ED seriously needs to polish Infantry AI so we can use this whirly-bird to its potential.

 

I have always thought that AI will stop shooting once they are out of ammo.

 

But if on your scenario they would, they wouldn't definitely shoot at you when you come to pick them up. Unless they are enemies that has retreated further outside of engagement ranges.

 

As that has happened on me, infantry starts moving further and further away from harms way and they then will just sit there waiting.

[Stratos]

I feel like ED will not fix it anytime soon, so maybe we should share ideas of how we can model infantry behaviour in a more realistic way. Also I hate the sniper gunners on the APCs.

[tusler]

I'm going to fly around on multiplayer server and get shot down by fixed wings like I do now when I take a helo out to drop troops or do CSAR. LoL

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, Stratos said:

I feel like ED will not fix it anytime soon, so maybe we should share ideas of how we can model infantry behaviour in a more realistic way. Also I hate the sniper gunners on the APCs.

 

Yes, I remember doing the beach interdiction in the Viggen, and the BMP-2s were more effective at air defence than the dedicated air defence units that were present.

[Hobo 1-1]

For me I’m looking forward to learning to fly it and using it much the way I use the UH-1 on PGAW. I might shuttle troops or slings, capture airfields or with the Hind’s firepower perform CAS, or even bomb a power plant or ammo dump. How much I fly it remains to be seen as some modules click with me more than others. My current favs are the UH-1, JF-17 and F-14A. makes no sense, I know but those are my favorites. 

[sublime]

2 hours ago, Palmetto 1-1 said:

For me I’m looking forward to learning to fly it and using it much the way I use the UH-1 on PGAW. I might shuttle troops or slings, capture airfields or with the Hind’s firepower perform CAS, or even bomb a power plant or ammo dump. How much I fly it remains to be seen as some modules click with me more than others. My current favs are the UH-1, JF-17 and F-14A. makes no sense, I know but those are my favorites. 

Those are my favorites too. Along with the p51/f86