DCS MiG-23 development update

[Mr_sukebe]

I did think that Raz had sold the Mirage to the French airforce.
My guess is that a corporate license will be a lot more profitable than consumer licenses

[addman]

On 1/8/2022 at 4:14 PM, Dudikoff said:

Yeah, it seems F-15E is getting the priority at Razbam now. It makes sense since it will sell like hotcakes..

I've loved the F-15E since the Microprose days, though personally, I'm kind of rooting for the MiG-23MLA even more in some ways. My take on it is that somebody else would have done the F-15E sooner or later, but a MiG-23 has much lesser prospects of coming to fruition (which would be a shame given how it was a mainstay of USSR Frontal Aviation for quite some time).

 

I think you are wrong, the MiG-21Bis is one of the most popular modules out there just like cold war servers. High fidelity is great but cold war low-fidelity is more FUN and I think that's why the Viggen and the MiG-21Bis are such popular multiplayer modules. I think the MiG-23 will be a seller for Razbam, IF they get it right I know I'm looking forward to it more than the F15E.

[Boosterdog]

On 1/10/2022 at 2:23 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

I did think that Raz had sold the Mirage to the French airforce.
My guess is that a corporate license will be a lot more profitable than consumer licenses

I dont fully buy the argument. Working with the military or other large corporates isnt automatically a licence to print money. Both can penny pinch every bit as much as they can squander believe me. Just cos a Mirage costs muliple millions to run in the RL doesnt mean a sim version of it will, especially given its soon to expire service life and the limited application. Miltary have accountants just like everyone else. 

Also there is the matter of it being one licence (for one squadron effectively) versus many thousands of potential consumer ones. I dont recall there being mention of any formal business arrangment and took it as an access for supply arrangement with an eye on perhaps a future -5 or -D and a bit of much needed Kudos as the real payoff.  

If all that comes across as "meh" and dismissive of the links- i dont mean it be - I think its great RAZBAM have developed those links for all concerned, especially consumers.    

 

[FlankerKiller]

On 11/4/2021 at 5:51 PM, Fynek said:

Mig23 and the Mirage F1 is guaranteed buy for me. Hopefully we will able to fly the Mig23 in 2022, cannot wait. We really need more Soviet aircrafts high fidelity, my wet dream is Mig31 (OMG if only.. even a Mig25 would be so awesome) and Mig29 high fidelity but i'll settle for a Mig23 on the short term , best of luck in your work

 

  Sorry to necro this comment only to disagree. But the other issue I see with the Mig-25 and Mig-31 is their gameplay would be unbelievably one-dimensional. They have one purpose, take off, go really really fast, and intercept bombers. It's cool to have them in missions, but the effort required to simulate them, I believe, would not be worth the payoff. I believe people wouldn't buy it.

  What makes the Mig-23 a great option is it is so versatile. It's been used in the ground attack role, it's an interceptor, it's an air superiority fighter, and it can dog fight. The Mig-21, Mig-23, Mi-24, MI-8 are already a potent late 80s early 90s era Red Air Force. If we got an SU-17/22 to go with it we would have most mission sets covered for that time period. And that time period is looking to get crowded soon.

F-14A out 

A-7E in development

A-4E basically out

A-6 in development

F-5E out

F-4E probably in development

UH-1H out

Mirage F1 in development

Mirage 2000 out. It kinda fits 

Mig-21bis out

Mig-23MLA in development

Mig-29A maybe

MI-24P out 

MI-8 out

That's a good looking but still  unbalanced plane set. 

  The Su-17/22 would go a long way to balancing it, as would an SU-25A or especially a Mig-27. The Soviets aren't making it to the Rhine in 7 days without some offensive air power. Unfortunately, the Mig-25 is so one dimensional I just don't see how it would help balance the equation.

  The Mig-21 and Mig-23 can do the intercept mission in DCS, as well as ground attack. Additionaly they can mix it up in a dogfight with the Western Jets mentioned above. Gameplay in the Mig-25 would basically be run in, shoot off your missiles, and haul ass. If you ever get into a furball you are dead. 

  Still I agree it would be a pretty cool jet, just don't think it'll sell. Also, man the cold war server is gonna be packed in a few years. Hopefully I will see you there comrade, as I will still buy any aircraft mentioned above, even the Mig-25, on day one. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by FlankerKiller
Grammar errors and typos

[Badger1-1]

People bought an acrobatic plane in DCS....people(and myself) will buy anything, and if its a Mig25 they will 100% buy it.

 

Im pretty sure even a U2 would be bought

 

So yeah, dont try to use logic here, we want more

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Not really. After trying the F-104 mod with accurate FM I can understand why that's a really limited and useless aircraft unless on it's actual fast local interceptor role, in which it is extremely good, but how many times you have that scenery online, for instance? And how many times it would remain interesting after you intercept a bunch of bombers a couple times? Makes absolute sense ED or some other third party wouldn't be willing to spend development effort in a module like that which would be a let down to many people idealising it without really understanding what's the purpose of the aircraft and how it works. Either offline but specially online it would be a pretty boring and useless aircraft and probably after the initial hype push wouldn't be any sales success after people realize what the aircraft really is and what it's not (something only happening in DCS, anywhere else you come to know that close an airframe). Aside from oneself wishes and eagerness we have to agree some historic and iconic aircraft aren't what we see them from the outside, at all, and would disappoint most of us, if not everybody, once we had the chance to fly them properly. After all ED is also a business company and they have to care about those details despite our wet dreams on these forums.

[FlankerKiller]

2 hours ago, Badger1-1 said:

People bought an acrobatic plane in DCS....people(and myself) will buy anything, and if its a Mig25 they will 100% buy it.

 

Im pretty sure even a U2 would be bought

 

So yeah, dont try to use logic here, we want more

I'm one of those people, and I fly it alot. The reason I keep coming back to it is because nothing in DCS can do what it can, and it's a real challenge to put a good routine together.  Issue is Mig-25 is just a fast fox 1 carrier. It was I good jet in it's role. A homeland defender for Russia. But not much else. It was slaughtered every time it was used as a fighter. The Mig-23 can fire fox ones and it's fast. But it can pull Gs, lots of them. It's the better choice. As is said above once you figure out how limited it is it's going to get old fast. 

[okopanja]

5 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

It was slaughtered every time it was used as a fighter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurra_Air_Battle

[FlankerKiller]

34 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Not really. After trying the F-104 mod with accurate FM I can understand why that's a really limited and useless aircraft unless on it's actual fast local interceptor role, in which it is extremely good, but how many times you have that scenery online, for instance? And how many times it would remain interesting after you intercept a bunch of bombers a couple times? Makes absolute sense ED or some other third party wouldn't be willing to spend development effort in a module like that which would be a let down to many people idealising it without really understanding what's the purpose of the aircraft and how it works. Either offline but specially online it would be a pretty boring and useless aircraft and probably after the initial hype push wouldn't be any sales success after people realize what the aircraft really is and what it's not (something only happening in DCS, anywhere else you come to know that close an airframe). Aside from oneself wishes and eagerness we have to agree some historic and iconic aircraft aren't what we see them from the outside, at all, and would disappoint most of us, if not everybody, once we had the chance to fly them properly. After all ED is also a business company and they have to care about those details despite our wet dreams on these forums.

I would be careful saying "accurate flight model" in reference to mod. My understanding is most of the work goes into the edge cases, and out of envelope caricaturists of an FM. That being said the F-104 wasn't called the widow maker for nothing. 

On your point about getting to really know an aircraft in DCS, I can agree more. I'm actually a little nervous whenever I buy an iconic aircraft. There is always a bit of fear that I just won't like it, or it won't live up to the hype. So far I haven't really had that happen. But I'm a pretty big aviation geek. So I kinda know what I'm expecting going in. But yeah something really specialized is going to catch some people off guard. 

 

[FlankerKiller]

12 minutes ago, okopanja said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurra_Air_Battle

So fired it's Fox 1s and ran away. Kinda my point. What is the kill to loss ratio of the Mig-25 vs the F-15 again? Also if your going to charry pick the operational history of the Foxhound why not the actual shoot down of an F-18? My issue isn't with the jet itself. It was fine in the role it was ment to perform. It's that it would be a best one dimensional l, and at worst extremely frustrating to play in DCS. IRL most of those pilots have never had a missile actually fired at them. In DCS most of the people you will engage have been avoiding AMRAAMs and Phoenix from day one. Good luck not getting notched. And then what. Run away? Try to open the gap to reengage before your out of fuel. Yes if you sculk around maybe you will be able to run down a true fighter and kill it. But if you ever merge it's over. And that is the definition of one dimensional game play. The Mig-23 can sculk too. And it can turn, and pull G. And even for the 23 it's going to be an uphill fight.  It's a very limited jet, and would only appeal to a limited number of players. Which equals a limited number of sales. And back to my point, the Mig-23 is a much better business decision to simulate. After it I would do an SU-17 or 22. Or if possible a Mig-27. With it's optics, and laser guided wepons the mission set would be rounded out. Then maybe see if the SU-25A would be possible. And only then would I even think about a Mig-25 in DCS. As it dose nothing that the Mig-23 can't. 

[okopanja]

6 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

So fired it's Fox 1s and ran away.

I sent you the link so you have the opportunity to learn more about the history. I did not mean to go into debate reds vs blue here.

Short story: This was 2x2 F-15s flight where one wing got intercepted by 2 Mig-25s, fired on,  then ran away, and Mig-25 afterwards ran away from second wing of F-15.

The fact is F-15 got smoked or even downed in this incident, so you can not claim the Mig-25 is "slaughtered every time".

Your comments show that you have no respect to the real pilots involved in this incident. Please do not compare them with the video game players.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

1 hour ago, FlankerKiller said:

I would be careful saying "accurate flight model" in reference to mod. My understanding is most of the work goes into the edge cases, and out of envelope caricaturists of an FM. That being said the F-104 wasn't called the widow maker for nothing. 

On your point about getting to really know an aircraft in DCS, I can agree more. I'm actually a little nervous whenever I buy an iconic aircraft. There is always a bit of fear that I just won't like it, or it won't live up to the hype. So far I haven't really had that happen. But I'm a pretty big aviation geek. So I kinda know what I'm expecting going in. But yeah something really specialized is going to catch some people off guard. 

 

"Accurate enough" so it gives you a quite vivid impression on what the airframe really is and what is not. Still a mod but FM wise (and following proper intercept profiles from mod publisher's vids, not just messing around with it) it's good enough to make you know you don't really want that aircraft for the kind of ops mostly done in the sim, either offline or online. Better?

That only talks good of the FM coder for the mod, as well as DCS for allowing a mod to be so accurate, better than some competence "official" aircraft if I have to say…

But yeah, wishlists everywhere aside, that's why MiG-23 makes all the sense and 25 for instance really doesn't, same as some others iconic aircraft but quite limited on their real capabilities once inside the sim no matter how hyped we can be about them.

[Volator]

If only there were some recent MiG-23 updates / news by Razbam/Overstratos in this thread instead of off-topic talk. 

[Semor76]

4 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

If only there were some recent MiG-23 updates / news by Razbam/Overstratos in this thread instead of off-topic talk. 

For the rest of you: please stay on topic and stop with this usless non topic related discussions and fightings.

It get me on the nerves...

Thx

[FlankerKiller]

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

I sent you the link so you have the opportunity to learn more about the history. I did not mean to go into debate reds vs blue here.

Short story: This was 2x2 F-15s flight where one wing got intercepted by 2 Mig-25s, fired on,  then ran away, and Mig-25 afterwards ran away from second wing of F-15.

The fact is F-15 got smoked or even downed in this incident, so you can not claim the Mig-25 is "slaughtered every time".

Your comments show that you have no respect to the real pilots involved in this incident. Please do not compare them with the video game players.

One, saying that the Mig-25 isn't a fighter isn't debating "Reds vs Blues". Two, I read your link, like I said intercept and run away, as a good interceptor should do. Three, since we're throwing around Wikipedia, how about you go read the operational history. While your at it count up the number of time the phrase "and was shot down by" is used in reference to the Mig-25. Having the operational history begin with "The Mig-25 was more useful to the Soviet Union as a reconnaissance air craft, then as an interceptor." is telling. I'm not debating that it was a bad interceptor. I'm saying it was only ever useful as an interceptor, and that would not be a really fun module. 

[FlankerKiller]

21 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

If only there were some recent MiG-23 updates / news by Razbam/Overstratos in this thread instead of off-topic talk. 

 

12 minutes ago, Semor76 said:

For the rest of you: please stay on topic and stop with this usless non topic related discussions and fightings.

It get me on the nerves...

Thx

Thank you. 

[Hodo]

On 1/14/2022 at 6:00 PM, FlankerKiller said:

  Sorry to necro this comment only to disagree. But the other issue I see with the Mig-25 and Mig-31 is their gameplay would be unbelievably one-dimensional. They have one purpose, take off, go really really fast, and intercept bombers. It's cool to have them in missions, but the effort required to simulate them, I believe, would not be worth the payoff. I believe people wouldn't buy it.

  What makes the Mig-23 a great option is it is so versatile. It's been used in the ground attack role, it's an interceptor, it's an air superiority fighter, and it can dog fight. The Mig-21, Mig-23, Mi-24, MI-8 are already a potent late 80s early 90s era Red Air Force. If we got an SU-17/22 to go with it we would have most mission sets covered for that time period. And that time period is looking to get crowded soon.

F-14A out 

A-7E in development

A-4E basically out

A-6 in development

F-5E out

F-4E probably in development

UH-1H out

Mirage F1 in development

Mirage 2000 out. It kinda fits 

Mig-21bis out

Mig-23MLA in development

Mig-29A maybe

MI-24P out 

MI-8 out

That's a good looking but still  unbalanced plane set. 

  The Su-17/22 would go a long way to balancing it, as would an SU-25A or especially a Mig-27. The Soviets aren't making it to the Rhine in 7 days without some offensive air power. Unfortunately, the Mig-25 is so one dimensional I just don't see how it would help balance the equation.

  The Mig-21 and Mig-23 can do the intercept mission in DCS, as well as ground attack. Additionaly they can mix it up in a dogfight with the Western Jets mentioned above. Gameplay in the Mig-25 would basically be run in, shoot off your missiles, and haul ass. If you ever get into a furball you are dead. 

  Still I agree it would be a pretty cool jet, just don't think it'll sell. Also, man the cold war server is gonna be packed in a few years. Hopefully I will see you there comrade, as I will still buy any aircraft mentioned above, even the Mig-25, on day one. 

 

 

 

 

 

I would love a Su-17/22 and the MiG-23/27.  I don't think the Su-25A high fidelity will be possible due to the same reasons we don't have a high fidelity 29A.

[WarbossPetross]

13 часов назад, Hodo сказал:

I would love a Su-17/22 and the MiG-23/27.  I don't think the Su-25A high fidelity will be possible due to the same reasons we don't have a high fidelity 29A.

ED says it wants to do a high fidelity MiG-29A after BS3 drops, so there's that. Su-25A is as old as our Mi-8 and Mi-24P and has been getting phased out in favour of Su-34 for quite some time now, so no problems with that either.

[Mainstay]

I would love the MiG-25 as a full fidelity module even if it has limited roles.

MiG-25PD as an Interceptor

MiG-25RB or RBT as Reconnaissance/Strike version

 

I like to fly special missions with specific roles.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Mainstay

[JunMcKill]

MIG-23 release 2023, MIG-25 in 2025, I cant even think in the MIG-31 or 57 ufff!

Edited January 19, 2022 by JunMcKill

[WinterH]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:50 PM, Mainstay said:

I would love the MiG-25 as a full fidelity module even if it has limited roles.

MiG-25PD as an Interceptor

MiG-25RB or RBT as Reconnaissance/Strike version

 

I like to fly special missions with specific roles.

 

Yup... perhaps add in the MiG-25BM too for the added flavor of SEAD :)) They would each be a one trick pony, but with added Mach 2.8 craziness while pulling off their one tricks!

[FlankerKiller]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

Yup... perhaps add in the MiG-25BM too for the added flavor of SEAD :)) They would each be a one trick pony, but with added Mach 2.8 craziness while pulling off their one tricks!

Do you think there is enough commonality between the variants to lump them into one module the way the P-47 was? If so that might make such a specialist aircraft more attractive. In the late cold war aircraft were far more specialized then now. Hell the last F-4s in combat with the USAF were specialized SAM killers. Being able to sell these aircraft as a "mega pack" could make sense. Or sell one version at a base price, and a reduced cost for the other versions. 

  I was hoping development cycles would speed up after the smorgasbord of modules that were released in 2019. And if Covid hadn't hit I think they might have. Now there are alot of projects that look like they might complete this year or next year. And a <profanity> ton of them are cold war era. The massive advantage to the cold war era is the possibility of having balance while sticking to the promise of extreme realism. Another advantage is the aircraft are simpler. I suspect there is a reason ED did the Mi-24 before the Apache. This should mean more modules, and more Third party studios. That could definitely open the door to some specialized but interesting aircraft. 

I'm hoping we might see the Mig-23 in 2023. Razbam is alive and well. Over the last year and a half they did a tremendous amount of work on the M2000C, and the AV8B. I suspect they have made tremendous progress of the F-15E as well. I'm hoping to see it this year. If it sales well that should put some real cash back into Raz. That cash could go a long way to this aircraft. They seem to want to do it so fingers crossed. Again it's a highly desired aircraft. Compared to the F-15E, or even the AV8B it should be easy money. Especially if ED dose make an F-4E, and Heatblure make an A-6. There would be a good solid set of player flyable targets for it to go up against. 

 

[WinterH]

7 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Do you think there is enough commonality between the variants to lump them into one module the way the P-47 was? If so that might make such a specialist aircraft more attractive.

Interceptor and recon/bomber MiG-25s are fairly different I think. Maybe not exactly naval vs air force F-4 different, but still considerably so. Not entirely sure, but I think the SEAD one is based on the recon/bomber line, but even then it has quite a few SEAD related different systems AFAIK. I feel like Aerges' upcoming Mirage F1 module, at least as planned, is very much a megapack, and at least F1M is fairly different compared to other versions, so, who knows? Perhaps someone can do such a MiG-25 module, but I would think that 25 would be a relatively low demand module so don't know if devs would be too willing to go to such heights to create a multi variant module. I personally would hope someone eventually will though!

That said, even I'd prefer to first see other, more flexible aircraft first, like MiG-23 itself, and it's ground attack sibling, MiG-27K to follow in another module!

[Dragon1-1]

SEAD anything is electronic warfare, and tends to be classified. MiG-25, in any version, wouldn't work too well in DCS. No gun, only four missiles, and way too fast for our maps. Heavy interceptors like the MiG-25 were a solution for defending vast, sparsely populated reaches of Siberia and Russian Far East. For locations like Caucasus, they had other, shorter-ranged fighters... like the MiG-23. 

[Semor76]