AIM 54/Tomcat bans and prohibitions in competitive play due to easily reproducible missile desync

[Skysurfer]

20 hours ago, umkhunto said:

Sounds to me there are a lot of people playing DCS for competitive PVP. Sounds like a lot of DCS players, are playing the wrong game.

 

It really all comes down to this. 

[captain_dalan]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:00 AM, Slice313 said:

How could anyone use the Tomcat in a tournament? It crashes the game every couple of respawns… this bug alone, makes it almost impossible. 

That's only been around since the 2.7 though.

22 hours ago, umkhunto said:

Sounds to me there are a lot of people playing DCS for competitive PVP. Sounds like a lot of DCS players, are playing the wrong game.

Like i said, war has become sport. For better or for worse. And with it, come terms like fair-play, buff, nerf, balance.......

[Kula66]

On 6/25/2021 at 4:50 PM, umkhunto said:

Sounds to me there are a lot of people playing DCS for competitive PVP. Sounds like a lot of DCS players, are playing the wrong game.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say ...

[dundun92]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:50 AM, umkhunto said:

Sounds to me there are a lot of people playing DCS for competitive PVP. Sounds like a lot of DCS players, are playing the wrong game.

I guess that anyone not playing ultrarealistic milsim is playing the "wrong game"? After all, its a sim, not a game . After all, ive yet to see someone uninstall the game because they crashed witout ejecting...

[TLTeo]

Eh, out of all games that are played as esports only a fraction are designed from the ground up to be one. Most of them are just born from the community building the competitive scene and handling the balance themselves. DCS is no different - it's obviously up to the competitive players to build a scene if they choose so, and developers have no obligation of trying to meet that scene's perceived needs.

[dundun92]

1 minute ago, TLTeo said:

Eh, out of all games that are played as esports only a fraction are designed from the ground up to be one. Most of them are just born from the community building the competitive scene and handling the balance themselves. DCS is no different - it's obviously up to the competitive players to build a scene if they choose so, and developers have no obligation of trying to meet that scene's perceived needs.

The problem is that desync and broken missiles affect everyone. Not just the "competitive players". Would you appreciate being in a SP campaign and not being able to fight F-14s because AIM-54s dont give RWR alerts?

[TLTeo]

That is not what this thread is about though.

[Karon]

3 hours ago, Kula66 said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say ...

Probably, that DCS is not, at this stage, a platform solid and reliable enough to ensure a fair and bug/exploit free experience to every player, and it will take a while to fix it.

Certain applications are more prone to suffering from those issues, and "competitive DCS" is one of those. By playing, you should accept and understand that these issues exist at the moment. If you don't like it, then play a different game (I'm saying "you" but I'm not referring specifically to you).

 

On a personal note, I've been invited to play in a few "competitive" teams but, besides the lack of time, I refused: I don't mind losing as it's always an occasion to learn and improve, but losing because of a bug or exploit, oh my, I'd be royally pissed off. Therefore, I don't play competitive DCS: there are other games around, more stable, reliable, with fewer bugs and more suitable to competitive gaming.

The situation will surely improve in the next few years but, at the moment, it is what it is.

[Kula66]

All aircraft/systems in DCS have bugs - every single one. New bugs seem to get introduced, and some fixed with every update; although it is generally getting better.  If we waited until everything was 'fixed', we'd never play anything ... lots of people play competitively and have great fun, its a game, enjoy it however you want.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Kula66

[Karon]

11 hours ago, Kula66 said:

All aircraft/systems in DCS have bugs - every single one. New bugs seem to get introduced, and some fixed with every update; although it is generally getting better.  If we waited until everything was 'fixed', we'd never play anything ... lots of people play competitively and have great fun, its a game, enjoy it however you want.

 

Were you replying to my post? Because no one expects all bugs to be quashed, that's impossible, but dealing with the game-breaking ones and the exploitable, it's a way to make it more "competitive"-friendly.

 

I agree on the rest of your post

[captain_dalan]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:25 PM, dundun92 said:

I guess that anyone not playing ultrarealistic milsim is playing the "wrong game"? After all, its a sim, not a game . After all, ive yet to see someone uninstall the game because they crashed witout ejecting...

That's a strawman right there. Not dying when you lose in a game is no base for arguing against dying in games. Or trying to implement more authentic-realistic rulesets in game design when such design is called for

On 6/26/2021 at 7:47 PM, dundun92 said:

The problem is that desync and broken missiles affect everyone. Not just the "competitive players". Would you appreciate being in a SP campaign and not being able to fight F-14s because AIM-54s dont give RWR alerts?

You mean like every time i take an AI F-14 with me and he refuses to engage with his 54s at any meaningful range? Or when he runs out of fuel during the ingress? Welcome to the reality of SP that has been broken as long as the MP has, if not longer. Yet we still do SP (some of us, though in my case not exclusively) and soldier on waiting just like everyone else for bugs to be fixed or features implemented. 

[dundun92]

My point is that people say competitive PvP players are playing the "wrong game" because realistically, war isnt fair. And im saying by that standard, everyone is playing the wrong game, as nobody is playing this game 100% realistically. The point being, the fact that you dont like PvP doesnt mean that you have to crap on those that dont

[Skysurfer]

16 hours ago, dundun92 said:

My point is that people say competitive PvP players are playing the "wrong game" because realistically, war isnt fair. And im saying by that standard, everyone is playing the wrong game, as nobody is playing this game 100% realistically. The point being, the fact that you dont like PvP doesnt mean that you have to crap on those that dont

 

I don't think that's neccessarily  what people meant by it. What was mentioned is competitive PvP where there is some peer-adversary and parity on both sides making it on paper a "fair matchup". Think the same guns/loadous or whatever in COD. Like, I'm the last person to shit on PvP in DCS but there is also quite a bit of elitism and lunacy, even ignoring all the current bugs with missiles, radar chaff etc. that sort of make PvP silly at times. 

 

[Kula66]

Its all silly at times: people firing 10 120s at you on GS, people insisting on turning off the radar as you approach the tanker, 8 v 8 BFM on Df server, desync, Jester, most pilots on final!

 

Comps are very different from the chaos of GS! I've only been doing comps a year or so, and despite all the bugs, 14/54 issues and general 14 'hate', its been great fun flying with/against some very smart, really great guys/gals; obviously its not for everyone, no better or worse than heavy mil-sim'ers or SP players. It also brings new players to the hobby.

 

PS> This isn't war ... not even 2%.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Kula66

[dundun92]

33 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

elitism and lunacy

The thing is... I see literally just as much of that from the "casual" players. Just scroll on hoggit or the GS discord for a few mins. Saltyness and whining is everywhere in DCS, and I dont see it any more prevalent in competitive players than I do in casual/PvE/milsimmers. The truth is, having flown and talked with a lot of them, 99% of "SATAL" players are ordinary people are arent salty/whiny players, and you probably wouldnt even know unless they mentioned it. Sure, theres always the salty 1% of SATAL players, and unfortunately they tend to be the easiest to notice and the most prevalent. The vocal minority so to speak. However, they are not representative of 99% of competitive DCS players.

Edited June 28, 2021 by dundun92

[Skysurfer]

6 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

The thing is... I see literally just as much of that from the "casual" players. Just scroll on hoggit or the GS discord for a few mins. Saltyness and whining is everywhere in DCS, and I dont see it any more prevalent in competitive players than I do in casual/PvE/milsimmers. The truth is, having flown and talked with a lot of them, 99% of "SATAL" players are ordinary people are arent salty/whiny players, and you probably wouldnt even know unless they mentioned it. Sure, theres always the salty 1% of SATAL players, and unfortunately they tend to be the easiest to notice and the most prevalent. The vocal minority so to speak. However, they are not representative of 99% of competitive DCS players.

 

 

No I obviously agree, I mean we know eachother.  That 1% or 5% or whatever is what is the vocal minority always complaining. I guess it's the Countersrike/Call of Duty crowd that gets into DCS wih this sort of mindset or simply Slavaboos who think Russian technology is always superiour and ED is intentioanally degrading it. Also depends on how you define "competitiveness" in DCS - do you accept the shortcomings, flaws and tools etc. of DCS or are you dead set to create some sort of sterile, controlled environment? 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Skysurfer

[captain_dalan]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:03 AM, dundun92 said:

My point is that people say competitive PvP players are playing the "wrong game" because realistically, war isnt fair. And im saying by that standard, everyone is playing the wrong game, as nobody is playing this game 100% realistically. The point being, the fact that you dont like PvP doesnt mean that you have to crap on those that dont

But that right there is the strawman. Just because nobody is playing 100% realistically is no argument for lack of realism and even less so for submitting realism to the needs of "competitiveness".  This isn't about SP VS MP or PvE VS PvP. It's about the consequences of adopting certain mindset when developing for the chosen mindset. When people get into a game (no matter the genre) with sport-like mentality, they expect "fair-play". They expect rules and standards that ensure that fair-play. War by definition isn't fair-play. Like that famous quote goes (paraphrased here), "if you find yourself in a fair fight, you've screwed up".

DCS being a game in the military simulation genre should always focus primary on implementing those features that make it so the most. Any individual that wants to make a sport out of it, should adapt to this environment, not the other way around. This is at least what i think when consider the competitive crowd, especially the apparently vocal minority that keep complaining on certain issues, issues that in relative weight are (at least to me) marginal when compared to the issues the platform as a whole is facing.

[dundun92]

Desync isnt realistic. Missiles not giving RWR warnings because of netcode isnt realistic. How is asking for that asking for less realism?

[DD_Fenrir]

Well asking the right people in the right sub-forum would be a more productive route, i.e. not Heatblur and not in the F-14 sub-forum given that they have repeatedly explained that the issues stem from Netcode (not their baby) and the missile API code (also not their baby). 

Edited June 29, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[captain_dalan]

Amen....

[DoorMouse]

This thread has lost the plot a bit. 

 

On 6/29/2021 at 3:25 PM, DD_Fenrir said:

Well asking the right people in the right sub-forum would be a more productive route, i.e. not Heatblur and not in the F-14 sub-forum given that they have repeatedly explained that the issues stem from Netcode (not their baby) and the missile API code (also not their baby). 

 

Quote

 

DCS being a game in the military simulation genre should always focus primary on implementing those features that make it so the most. Any individual that wants to make a sport out of it, should adapt to this environment, not the other way around. This is at least what i think when consider the competitive crowd, especially the apparently vocal minority that keep complaining on certain issues, issues that in relative weight are (at least to me) marginal when compared to the issues the platform as a whole is facing.

@captain_dalan

 

 

• They acknowledged (in this thread) they had not seen/tested the High AOA PH Active issues, so that now is in their pipeline to investigate. Thats great, and this is the right place to bring that up. 
• Its their module and you'd think they would have some interest in seeing it in DCS World Events, streams, etc... that does drive some sales- And a point of pride that its not considered by the larger community to be "Broken". So this is the right place to ask them to comment on that, IMO.
• As someone else pointed out - Asking for the RWR, Missile performance, or other things is not asking them to 'adapt to the competitive scene'. Its asking to have basic functionality be realistic and modeled correctly. Really missing the forest for the trees here 
• And finally - In anything people put time into or are passionate about there will be a drive to be competitive. Is this ultra balanced e-sports like Overwatch or Rocket League? no... decidedly not.  But PVP is more challenging than PVE, and then flying against random people in pubs who just got DCS today and barely know how to fly gets boring. Why cast shade on people who mutually want to play at a high level against each other? 

 

I think Iron Mike addressed the questions and acknowledged the issue being recognized. We've reached the point of diminishing returns on this thread- But the attitude of people saying "why are people trying to play an online game with each-other?" is pretty strange and surprising. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by DoorMouse

[captain_dalan]

9 hours ago, DoorMouse said:

 

• Its their module and you'd think they would have some interest in seeing it in DCS World Events, streams, etc... that does drive some sales- And a point of pride that its not considered by the larger community to be "Broken". So this is the right place to ask them to comment on that, IMO.
• As someone else pointed out - Asking for the RWR, Missile performance, or other things is not asking them to 'adapt to the competitive scene'. Its asking to have basic functionality be realistic and modeled correctly. Really missing the forest for the trees here 

 

 

 

1. You are aware that by far the larger, or should i say the largest part of the community is hardly aware of this forum's existence, let alone some  tournament, right?
2. How are things not developed by that developer under jurisdiction of the said developer? When your canopy doesn't melt in the F-16, do you come to HB to fix it for you? Or when a Hornet is over-stressed indefinitely without any issue what so ever, do you come to HB to fix that too?

[DoorMouse]

Yeah, I think that's the point. Most players play single player or no pvp and do not find these issues- But crucially, pvp is part of the game.

 

If that community of players finds issues where the game or its modules aren't working properly then its reasonable for them to report it, and no less valid for them to do so. I dunno what your driving at.  I'd say that the online multiplayer community probably finds and is the most vocal about bugs in the Open Beta track, which is working as intended - I'd not suggest discouraging people from reporting issues. The issue being:

The Aim54 has a reproducible exploit in PVP and is the only missile capable of it, and the tomcat is the only aircraft with that missile -IE Reporting it on the Tomcat bugs forum. Iron mike already acknowledged the issue, and said it was unknown to them - So problem solved? Is that okay with you? 

 

The reality is that the Aim54 AWG-9 behavior exceeds the capabilities of the current API. They cant model it correctly, and clearly something between the Tomcat/ED missile handoff as it is implemented is giving the client and observers wildly different information- again, it is the only missile doing that. 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by DoorMouse

[RustBelt]

On 6/27/2021 at 8:03 PM, dundun92 said:

My point is that people say competitive PvP players are playing the "wrong game" because realistically, war isnt fair. And im saying by that standard, everyone is playing the wrong game, as nobody is playing this game 100% realistically. The point being, the fact that you dont like PvP doesnt mean that you have to crap on those that dont

No, they're playing the wrong game because ED has said MANY times that they don't see MultiPlayer as a high priority because they say most of their players are almost all on single player. That's why it's the wrong game, because making a solid multiplayer environment isn't something ED is that interested in. 

[dundun92]

8 hours ago, RustBelt said:

No, they're playing the wrong game because ED has said MANY times that they don't see MultiPlayer as a high priority because they say most of their players are almost all on single player. That's why it's the wrong game, because making a solid multiplayer environment isn't something ED is that interested in. 

Then why has ED enabled MP if they dont intend for people to use it? Otherwise its not the wrong game and all you're doing is telling people how to play the game based on your personal preferences.