correct as-is Remove obstruction in front of RWR

[WHOGX5]

6 hours ago, Baz000 said:

granted this is a F-16 simulator and not the real aircraft, and it also probably has a different RWR display and for that matter may even be a completely different block F-16... But I came across this video in a different thread and thought I should post it here...

 

You can see absolutely zero obstruction where the RWR display is from camera angle and you could extrapolate that the pilot would see from his eye height a similar sight picture because camera height and eye height of pilot are not too far off each other...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/214887-f-16-mfd-readability/?do=findComment&comment=4687877

 

and in DCS the top radius part of RWR is obscured / obstructed in default cockpit view, you are missing the front 45 degrees of azimuth off the nose of the F-16! The side azimuth being blocked from ICP is questionable too in my mind... I'd imagine from the perspective of the pilot sitting straight in the seat you ought to be able to see the RWR display in its entirety without any obstruction of view? It is kind of a really important thing to have a clear unobstructed view of in a threat environment.

 

If you would have taken the time to read my first response to you you wouldn't have to keep bumping this thread. The default head position in the F-16 is too far forward. This is to make the HUD more visible as you only have one viewpoint (without VR) and in real life you have two eyes which gives you a wider FOV of the HUD. The solution is to move your default head position backwards. It takes 5 seconds and you won't have this problem ever again. Here's a photo of an Israeli F-16C Block 52. See how visible the RWR is? Do you also see how the HUD is very zoomed in and hard to see with the single viewpoint of a camera?

 

 

PS: Don't try to get ED to adjust the 3D model of their cockpit based on a video of a cheap simulator cockpit made in plastic.

[Baz000]

Stop telling people carte blanche to just adjust their cockpit views by saving a custom snapview as a bandaid localized fix. That doesn't fix the problem for the other 3 members of my multiplayer flight. That isn't the problem at hand, the problem is line of sight.

 

Panther, who has actually sat inside quite a few F-16 cockpits has said ED also needs to fix it and isn't accurate to the real aircraft.

 

In what bizzaro backwards world are you living in where real engineers designing multi-million dollars worth of equipment would for a threat warning system display, allow it to be partially obscured let alone for it to be mounted in that particular position if it were to be obscured from view. Yes the inner ring is visible in DCS but the problem is the other ring.

 

This is something the 3D art team needs to sit down and hash out, it is a pilot line of sight issue, and out of all the instruments and displays in the cockpit inside a combat environment the RWR is the one thing keeping you alive.

 

Here, I did a google search for F-16 cockpit and here is what was found and we can argue about camera angles and tilt camera location and fisheye lenses etc etc... But i'm not going to, the photographs should really just speak for themselves especially when you notice a pattern emerge

 

Also, furthermore... The Standby ADI can clearly be seen TOO! Without the top half of it being cut off by the DED display... Noticed this too when I looked closer!

 

before I provide photographic evidence, a quick word about pilot seating position! Yes, the seat is reclined 30 degrees but often times the pilot head is not!!! The pilot normally sits with head forward of the headrest of the seat unless pulling Gs like in BFM or preparation for ejection... See for yourself! Even the ground crews don't sit with their heads on the headrest (that is actually quite an unnatural position and hardly ergonomic)

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

NOT ON HEADREST:

 

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

RWR AND STBY ADI CLEARLY VISIBLE:

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Baz000

[NineLine]

The view in the cockpit was signed off on by Wags himself, who approved it based on him sitting in the cockpit of the real thing. Now it might be frustrating for people that don't have head tracking, but snap views can help solve this issue very easy.

 

Check out this thread here: 

 

[Baz000]

I'm not one to question the mighty Wags but please look at my newly edited post above and the photographic evidence I have gathered as well as the words of Panther on the previous page regarding the visibility of the RWR in particular.

 

But now, I noticed that the standby ADI should probably not be cut off by the DED display on the top half in the pilot's line of sight too, looking at the images I had compiled. 

[NineLine]

ALso if you adjust the seat, the top of the RWR is completely uncovered.

[Baz000]

Yeah, but your HUD is now all jacked up especially the bottom portion.

[NineLine]

11 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

I'm not one to question the mighty Wags but please look at my newly edited post above and the photographic evidence I have gathered as well as the words of Panther on the previous page regarding the visibility of the RWR in particular.

 

But now, I noticed that the standby ADI should probably not be cut off by the DED display on the top half in the pilot's line of sight too, looking at the images I had compiled. 

Pictures are tough to trust as you dont know how the camera was help, lenses, etc. I trust Wags vision and experience from making sims for a long time. Lets also remember that these cockpits are made for head tracking and VR, there are work arounds such as snap views for all other options. There is no issue here that I can see.

1 minute ago, Baz000 said:

Yeah, but your HUD is now all jacked up especially the bottom portion.

The best bet is a snap view without trackIR and/or VR

I was only showing that you could move the seat to peak at the top as well, and move it back, there are work arounds for those that cant afford head tracking options.

[Baz000]

IDK, to me it seems like a strange engineering design flaw to have partial obstruction of the RWR from a natural resting seated position... And yes, it still is an issue in VR and in Track IR because I use both of those.

 

In the highly cluttered electronic warfare environment of today's combat environment you'd imagine that from a purely logical point of view you would want completely unobstructed view of any part of the azimuth display of the RWR to allow for as fast a reaction time as possible from the pilot if it were needed.

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, Baz000 said:

IDK, to me it seems like a strange engineering design flaw to have partial obstruction of the RWR from a natural resting seated position... And yes, it still is an issue in VR and in Track IR because I use both of those.

 

In the highly cluttered electronic warfare environment of today's combat environment you'd imagine that from a purely logical point of view you would want completely unobstructed view of any part of the azimuth display of the RWR to allow for as fast a reaction time as possible from the pilot if it were needed.

Sorry, here I disagree, yes, starting view its blocked, but its just a twitch of the head to view it, I dont see any issue at all with track IR, when it was new it was weird, now its second nature to look at, like anything else.

[Baz000]

So, just so that we are clear... No issue here that I can't identify what nails this is?

 

 

 

Here is what lowering the seat looks like so I can tell what nails this is:

 

I'm going to take a brief video with Track IR in a moment too showing just how problematic this really is to see anything on the outer radius of the RWR on the forward 45 degrees off the jet (which is probably the most important direction to know of a threat since you are flying right towards it!)

 

ADDED VIDEO:

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Baz000

[Baz000]

Didn't you actually do ground work on F-16's?

[=Panther=]

Just now, Baz000 said:

Didn't you actually do ground work on F-16's?

Yes, still going strong today.

[Baz000]

Look, i'm trying to be constructive... Something seems really off with the RWR display as presented to the player where you are unable to discern a forward quarter RWR nails on the outer threat ring

 

and that doesn't seem to make logical sense in a tactical combat aircraft from a design perspective especially when the RWR is right in the front of the pilot's face

Edited July 3, 2021 by Baz000

[=Panther=]

2 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

So, in your professional opinion does it seem right that a multi-million dollar tactical fighter jet which was heralded as the pinnacle of man machine interface ergonomic design and is sought after the world over by NATO nations... That said airframe would not allow the pilot to see the front 45 degree azimuth of the outer threat circle on the RWR display from a natural seating position without having to become an amateur contortionist?

I'll go sit in the jet on Tuesday again, just to make sure something didn't change between the last several hundreds of jets I was in. Images are pretty accurate as well.

[Baz000]

Thanks for letting me know the images I found are pretty accurate!

[Baz000]

In all fairness he said that before I was able to produce a quick video demonstrating why it is such a tactical problem.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Baz000

[Exorcet]

Just as an FYI, with all default settings and no head tracking you can solve the view issue just by turning your head:

 

 

[Baz000]

No, not really... As evidenced in my short video I made

 

also, why  is the E3 nails off your 3 o'clock when it should be remaining on your 12??

Edited July 3, 2021 by Baz000

[Exorcet]

21 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

No, not really... As evidenced in my short video I made

 

also, why  is the E3 nails off your 3 o'clock when it should be remaining on your 12??

 

I turned to put it there. I'm showing how to view the RWR with a threat directly ahead by looking down (top two sets of images) and how to view the RWR with a threat directly to the right (lower two sets of images).

 

So the images taken at 22:02:27 are taken flying toward AWACS, only difference is view angle. The images taken at 22:05:51 are taken flying parallel to AWACS, the only difference is view angle.

[Baz000]

See the funny thing is in a real F-16 which a facsimile DCS F-16 is supposed to simulate, looking at the RWR with your eyes does not work that way from what I understand, using basic logic.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

Just as an FYI, with all default settings and no head tracking you can solve the view issue just by turning your head:

 

 

Agreed, I don't see a real issue here.

[Baz000]

Did you watch my video because I spelled out the issue very succinctly and plainly?

[WHOGX5]

6 hours ago, Baz000 said:

Did you watch my video because I spelled out the issue very succinctly and plainly?

Your behavior in this thread is absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be dead set on not listening to a single person who doesn't completely agree with you. Your view is too far forward. Adjust the default camera position to where it would be in real life. That's it. You'll see the RWR. Instead you choose to go on and on with these theatrics about how you just want to see the RWR but you're also not prepared to do a single thing within your power as a human being to make that happen. You can ramble on about engineers, pilots, alternate universes; it doesn't matter. Your theorizing doesn't prove anything. So all you have to do now is to just PROVE to us with EVIDENCE that the cockpit around the RWR isn't modeled correctly. No more "I think", "they can't" or "they wouldn't". Just post actual proof.

 

Trust me, I'm always down to complain about the absolutely horrid state of the DCS F-16, but this is not one of those times. I don't get why you refuse to come to terms with the aforementioned answers which others and I have explained to you several times each at this point, and we have done this in the most succinct and plain manner. I'm honestly at a loss as to how this thread hasn't been locked yet.

[Smoked]

Talk about trying to focus energy in a place that it is not needed... Wow...  Its simple... re-center view position when you get in the pit... and/or adjust seat up and down..   Kinda hard to get onboard with an argument/debate when the proof they provide is multiple pictures using multiple FOV lenses, this approach is 100% subjective and ridiculous.

 

This has got to be the most subjective argument out there.   I have sat in the viper... While I do not completely remember every detail of the pit, I do clearly remember there is a lot of stuff crammed into a incredibly small place.  Moving your head around to look at things is not unusual or unacceptable to do so.  

 

 

ED.. Please ignore this and focus on things that are actual bugs and KNOWN issues... Thanks!

[WobblyFlops]

48 minutes ago, Smoked said:

This has got to be the most subjective argument out there.   I have sat in the viper... While I do not completely remember every detail of the pit, I do clearly remember there is a lot of stuff crammed into a incredibly small place.  Moving your head around to look at things is not unusual or unacceptable to do so.  

It really is quite simple. Panther knows more about the F-16 than any of us, she is an actual SME, not a random guy that sat in a Viper and doesn't remember what he actually saw. So if in the real jet the RWR, the MFDs and the HUD are visible perfectly from a comfortable position the same thing should be replicated in the game. It doesn't really matter what reality is though, if they indeed modelled it wrong they sure as hell won't change it at this stage, but for fairness sake I'm really curious to know what Panther will say about this once she gets the chance to check it again. I would be incredibly surprised if this was accurate.