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Dora wants to depart controlled flight during normal maneuvering fights


Blackhawk NC

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I am new to the DORA, but when i am in a turning fight this aircraft easily becomes uncontrollable. Even at reasonable speed, 450 - 600 kph, it will depart flight and begin to roll and spin, usually to the left. I have been trying to figure out what i am doing wrong. I am a new warbirds pilot so I am sure it is my mistake, but the manual has been little help...What do you think I am doing wrong?

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4 hours ago, Blackhawk NC said:

I am new to the DORA, but when i am in a turning fight this aircraft easily becomes uncontrollable. Even at reasonable speed, 450 - 600 kph, it will depart flight and begin to roll and spin, usually to the left. I have been trying to figure out what i am doing wrong. I am a new warbirds pilot so I am sure it is my mistake, but the manual has been little help...What do you think I am doing wrong?

 

Pulling too hard on the stick and increasing AOA to a point where you will stall. This is unrelated to the speed of your aircraft.

 

Some tips from this vid might help you:

 

Phil also has a bunch of vids flying the Dora in multiplayer. Those might help too 😉


Edited by MrExplosion

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Das macht uns glücklich, stolz und froh,

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Yes, getting rid of the bank and yank jet powered mindset is a big help…

 

All of the warbirds benefit from being “guided” around the sky using all 3 axes / control surfaces.  
 

Decades of PC flying with short joysticks and jet / poorly modelled prop FMs had me stalling every turn.  Despite the bad rep they have on this forum the little trainers (Yak, L-39, and yes the Gazelle) really taught me to fly more “gently”… full aileron deflection and then pulling the stick all the way back just makes the warbirds fall out of the sky

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On 6/6/2021 at 5:56 PM, MrExplosion said:

 

 

Pulling too hard on the stick and increasing AOA to a point where you will stall. This is unrelated to the speed of your aircraft.

 

@Mr. Explosion that unrelated to the AOA, Dora did have 15 AOA as the P-51 for example. The only thing what the Dora doesn't like is sharp Inputs with high G-Load. Thats because the Wingflex of the 190 is not ok start to shift the Lift under high G-Loads.

 

To operate the Dora smooth Hands are requierd

 

 

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36 minutes ago, MAD-MM said:

Dora did have 15 AOA as the P-51 for example

Well, the P-51 also stalls when you pull too hard on the stick 😉 I figured too much AOA was the reason for both.

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Kein Anderer als ein Jäger spürt,

Den Kampf und Sieg so konzentriert.

 

Das macht uns glücklich, stolz und froh,

Der Jägerei ein Horrido!

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8 minutes ago, MrExplosion said:

Well, the P-51 also stalls when you pull too hard on the stick 😉 I figured too much AOA was the reason for both.

At slow speeds will reach of course higher then 15 AOA, this case it is Aerodynamic stall. At higher Speeds you will ecounter accelerated Stall first thats your G-Load. Fw-190 does in both cases at lot worse then the P-51, Fw-190 higher Wingload (Stall Speed) and absolute unforgiving accellertated Stalls because of the Wingflex. Fw-190 does at max so far I remember 8G, you can easy rip your Wings appart in the P-51 with well over 10G without Stalling out.

Zwischenablage014654.jpg

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As mentioned the smoother you are with the D9, and presumably also the A8, the better it will fly. It can turn but you need to load the wings smoothly / progressively, not just give it all the load at once. Flying smoother will also help you retain energy. I'd recommend setting some curves on your joystick to assist with this. But the Fw190 series has high wing loading, so it is not the best at turning... rolling on the other hand.

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On 6/8/2021 at 2:04 PM, VH-Rock said:

Use the turn/slip indicator to your advantage

The question I ask myself here is, isn't that rather inconvenient for us sim pilots?

Don't real ones feel the slip and then automatically compensate for it.

Similar with the g forces.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hobel said:

The question I ask myself here is, isn't that rather inconvenient for us sim pilots?

Don't real ones feel the slip and then automatically compensate for it.

Similar with the g forces.

 

 

Not always, in some cases pilot is not able to feel it, this is why you have this gauge.

So this slip indicator is extremely important, check P-47 D-30 early heaving slip indicator at gun sight.

So sim or not you are dependent on this slip indicator.

It is all about learning in flying sim, this is quite different then real flying. Some sim pilots fly perfect coordinated some not.

I will never support any artificial slip correction for warbirds.

 


Edited by grafspee
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3 hours ago, Hobel said:

The question I ask myself here is, isn't that rather inconvenient for us sim pilots?

Don't real ones feel the slip and then automatically compensate for it.

Similar with the g forces.

 

 

I don't consider flying accurately inconvenient - it's how it should be done. But, I've always flown warbirds in sims and I've always done it. You'd be surprised at how natural it is when you've been doing it for a little while. The amount varies from aircraft to aircraft, but it usually doesn't take me long to fly coordinated in a new type. 

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5 hours ago, Hobel said:

The question I ask myself here is, isn't that rather inconvenient for us sim pilots?

Don't real ones feel the slip and then automatically compensate for it.

Similar with the g forces.

 

 

Hobel you dont feel the Slip automatical, when you not full slapping the Ruder for a Sideslip.........Glider Pilots allways says Powered Aircraft only using the Rudder to Taxi on the Ground. You can see it when you fly sloppy where the Nose is pointing in a Turn or checking the Slip indicator but it is not different to DCS, after some time it is simple automatic mind Action. You also tend to overreact when you change the Planes from somewhat with high Ruder Force to something with low Ruder Force 109 to P-51 aswel in real live..

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I love P-47 D-30 early for this slip indicator on gun sight, just so much easier to keep it coordinated, no need to look at main gauges panel, from same reason i hate spitfire the super weird slip indicator.

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Also if you include a track with the controls indicators showing we can better diagnose what you are seeing.

 

These aircraft and FMs are very complex, and many people like using curves to get them how they like, or its simple getting to know the limits of your aircraft.

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  • 1 year later...

I agree with OP  this thing can not turn can't even spit-s . 

Considering this was one of the best fighters . 

Fly this then go fly 109 you can perform any task .  

D9 is awful something very off with this 2022 model maybe a patch has broke this . 

Spitfire dances all over the sky's . 

P51 stable in every task 

109 nice to fly . 

D9 falls out of sky at 400kmh in a turn . LoL 😆

190 A8  too slow . 


Edited by KoN

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15 hours ago, KoN said:

I agree with OP  this thing can not turn can't even spit-s . 

Considering this was one of the best fighters . 

Fly this then go fly 109 you can perform any task .  

D9 is awful something very off with this 2022 model maybe a patch has broke this . 

Spitfire dances all over the sky's . 

P51 stable in every task 

109 nice to fly . 

D9 falls out of sky at 400kmh in a turn . LoL 😆

190 A8  too slow . 

 

It's a long discussion starting with Dora's Cl  (lift coefficient).. but I won't open the Pandora box.. 🙂

I do believe that all old WWII modules FMs must be revised.. but that'll cost ED a lot of money and man hours to do.. no doubt about that. Is it feasible? I don't know but I'd pay for a that.. for sure. 🙂

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@amazingme Maybe release D-13 with D-9 upgrade would be more feasible then redoing all just for free. 

I got your point now, till recently Ed claimed that cooling model is ok, sometimes ended with heated topics, but after release of new cooling, cooling turned out to be whole new world, so i am so convinced that old birds really need FM revisit asap. 


Edited by grafspee
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13 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Another insightful post backed up with legitimate documentary evidence. /S

Modus operandi  KoN everyone.

No drama mate . See you in the sky some time . I like your Witt . 

 


Edited by KoN

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Am 2.9.2022 um 02:08 schrieb KoN:

Considering this was one of the best fighters . 

You know... every pilot said that about the aircraft they flew..

Zitat

 

Spitfire dances all over the sky's . 

P51 stable in every task 

109 nice to fly . 

D9 falls out of sky at 400kmh in a turn . LoL 

190 A8  too slow . 

 

Spit cant climb and can be outrun by Dora and 109

P51 departs and cant turn with the 109

109 is a nightmare to start and land. has crap highspeed maneuverability and cant turn at high alts.

D9 can outrun the mustang.

Anton cant take a lot of punch.

 

Tbf, you´re just being very selective, with your arguments.

 

Every plane has its pros and cons. And they also change with height speed etc.

In MP most people barely play above 5000 m /15 k ft.  That gives an advantage to some fighters to others its  a disadvantage.

If you depart with the dora at 400kmh in a turn, you simply pull to hard. Same thing will happen with a Mustang. And i fly both.

 

My mate and i fly alot against each other and hes a way better pilot than i am. he surely held his own in an anton flying against me in the mustang.


Edited by Doughguy
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  • ED Team
On 9/1/2022 at 5:08 PM, KoN said:

I agree with OP  this thing can not turn can't even spit-s . 

Considering this was one of the best fighters . 

Fly this then go fly 109 you can perform any task .  

D9 is awful something very off with this 2022 model maybe a patch has broke this . 

Spitfire dances all over the sky's . 

P51 stable in every task 

109 nice to fly . 

D9 falls out of sky at 400kmh in a turn . LoL 😆

190 A8  too slow . 

 

I require a track please, if this happens so easily, you should be able to make a short track for us to look at, please and thank you.

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Maybe some pp are not acquainted with KPH but 400 KPH is roughly 240 MPH, at this speed P-51 will not pull much G as well.  

When you are flying P-51 and you can see 400 on your speed gauge you can do anything, if you are in Fw190 400 on speed gauge not so much.  


Edited by grafspee
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@Blackhawk NC: When I started flying the Dora I could have posted something like your story. Today, I find the Dora a great fighter. I can defeat all allied WWII fighters except the Spit.
The difference between then and now is simply learning through practice. Your problem is almost certainly that you pull too hard in the turn and then your left (I believe) wing drops. But the Dora warns you before that happens. I'm by no means a great fighter pilot, but I defeat the Mustang AI regularly, even when the AI has skill level "Ace". The attached track is just an example. I have a track of an easier victory. In that case the Mustang's mission task was "CAS". It seems that that makes it more docile.
Note: I'm 77 and my eyesight has suffered. I must therefore use labels.
The Dora is a beast that wants to be tamed. Are you up to the challenge?
 

Dora kill Mustang AI Ace 1.trk

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