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Instructor Mode?


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51 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

You can do that with any number of video conferencing apps - Skype, Zoom, etc. - without having to be on someone's Discord page. A quick search for discord screen share results in many reports of extreme lag while playing games, so that doesn't sound like a viable solution.

 

[very good description of instructor mode removed for brevity]

 

Instructor Mode™ would be native in DCS. No need for additional software, no or very little additional network load, no additional burden on foreign servers. A simple solution providing a large benefit.

 

I, too, would love to see this happening. To implement this, ED would have to come up with separate network protocols that can feed into and can supersede the control stream of a client, and also allow for two separate camera positions in the place of one. This is definitely doable, and - never having seen the code involved - I would estimate a proof of concept could be done at some 6 person months of effort (100 person days = 40k USD gross, dry estimate). 

 

The question is how to refinance and justify this. ED has stated on multiple occasions a highly lamentable fact: the overwhelming majority of players does not multi-play. Of those who do, I imagine again a minuscule sliver would actually use this feature (I love MP, but only 10% of my MP time is multi-crew, usually the Huey or Tomcat, never my C101 or L39 that would be used to train other pilots). Which brings me to the real issue: justifying this 6 months investment over other MP improvements (always assuming that there are some planned). Since there is a kludgy work-around (skype, zoom, others), would it be wise to 'squander' the effort on developing this instructor mode over other network features? Personally, I would think not, even though I'd love to eventually see it happen. But there are other network/multiplayer features that I would like to see before this particular one.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Thanks for the reply, Furiz!

 

 

You can be an independent camera view with a pointer that the V-pilot can see? 😮 Or do you mean, the V-pilot can share his display?

 

You can do that with any number of video conferencing apps - Skype, Zoom, etc. - without having to be on someone's Discord page. A quick search for discord screen share results in many reports of extreme lag while playing games, so that doesn't sound like a viable solution.

 

If I can stream on discord and watch streams without any performance hit with my 10Mbit prehistoric connection then anyone can. What extreme lag?

 

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Additionally, it might also cause a performance hit on the Discord channel, which certainly wouldn't be welcome by the channel owner. Will everyone on the server be able to access the screen share? That will definitely cause many players to reject using it. I've heard too many talk about how they don't want others to see their training, because they are embarrassed and afraid of being ridiculed.

 

That stream is being used over and over again and I don't rly see ppl complaining about performance hits on discord channel.

You can lock the channel used for the stream so only you and the person being the trainee can look at that stream.

 

I can't help you with the fear of being ridiculed...

It is in human nature to try and fail, and how we deal with is what makes us stronger. It is ok to fail, and the ones that are trying to laugh at you for failing they are the weak ones.

 

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Baring technical/performance issues, I guess that could be used, but it would not be terribly user friendly, because the instructor would be restricted to viewing only exactly where the pilot is looking, including every head motion he makes (VR, TrackIR), which can quickly lead to motion sickness.

 

 

On 7/5/2021 at 12:56 PM, Captain Orso said:

2) Both V-pilot and instructor can see the exact same thing at the exact same time. Both could point to things in the cockpit to help ask questions and give instructions and training. This is something you will never be able to do in a trainer aircraft.

 

You said it...

 

 

So Discord it is;P (skype, zoom etc... ) 😜

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Thanks for the reply, Furiz!

 

 

You can be an independent camera view with a pointer that the V-pilot can see? 😮 Or do you mean, the V-pilot can share his display?

 

You can do that with any number of video conferencing apps - Skype, Zoom, etc. - without having to be on someone's Discord page. A quick search for discord screen share results in many reports of extreme lag while playing games, so that doesn't sound like a viable solution.

 

If I can stream on discord and watch streams without any performance hit with my 10Mbit prehistoric connection then anyone can. What extreme lag?

 

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Additionally, it might also cause a performance hit on the Discord channel, which certainly wouldn't be welcome by the channel owner. Will everyone on the server be able to access the screen share? That will definitely cause many players to reject using it. I've heard too many talk about how they don't want others to see their training, because they are embarrassed and afraid of being ridiculed.

 

That stream is being used over and over again and I don't rly see ppl complaining about performance hits on discord channel.

You can lock the channel used for the stream so only you and the person being the trainee can look at that stream.

 

I can't help you with the fear of being ridiculed...

It is in human nature to try and fail, and how we deal with is what makes us stronger. It is ok to fail, and the ones that are trying to laugh at you for failing they are the weak ones.

 

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Baring technical/performance issues, I guess that could be used, but it would not be terribly user friendly, because the instructor would be restricted to viewing only exactly where the pilot is looking, including every head motion he makes (VR, TrackIR), which can quickly lead to motion sickness.

 

 

On 7/5/2021 at 12:56 PM, Captain Orso said:

2) Both V-pilot and instructor can see the exact same thing at the exact same time. Both could point to things in the cockpit to help ask questions and give instructions and training. This is something you will never be able to do in a trainer aircraft.

 

You said it...

 

 

So Discord it is;P (skype, zoom etc... ) 😜

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Thanks for the reply, Furiz!

 

 

You can be an independent camera view with a pointer that the V-pilot can see? 😮 Or do you mean, the V-pilot can share his display?

 

You can do that with any number of video conferencing apps - Skype, Zoom, etc. - without having to be on someone's Discord page. A quick search for discord screen share results in many reports of extreme lag while playing games, so that doesn't sound like a viable solution.

 

If I can stream on discord and watch streams without any performance hit with my 10Mbit prehistoric connection then anyone can. What extreme lag?

 

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Additionally, it might also cause a performance hit on the Discord channel, which certainly wouldn't be welcome by the channel owner. Will everyone on the server be able to access the screen share? That will definitely cause many players to reject using it. I've heard too many talk about how they don't want others to see their training, because they are embarrassed and afraid of being ridiculed.

 

That stream is being used over and over again and I don't rly see ppl complaining about performance hits on discord channel.

You can lock the channel used for the stream so only you and the person being the trainee can look at that stream.

 

I can't help you with the fear of being ridiculed...

It is in human nature to try and fail, and how we deal with is what makes us stronger. It is ok to fail, and the ones that are trying to laugh at you for failing they are the weak ones.

 

7 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Baring technical/performance issues, I guess that could be used, but it would not be terribly user friendly, because the instructor would be restricted to viewing only exactly where the pilot is looking, including every head motion he makes (VR, TrackIR), which can quickly lead to motion sickness.

 

 

On 7/5/2021 at 12:56 PM, Captain Orso said:

2) Both V-pilot and instructor can see the exact same thing at the exact same time. Both could point to things in the cockpit to help ask questions and give instructions and training. This is something you will never be able to do in a trainer aircraft.

 

You said it...

 

 

So Discord it is;P (skype, zoom etc... ) 😜

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Thanks for the reply, cfrag!

 

6 hours ago, cfrag said:

 

I, too, would love to see this happening. To implement this, ED would have to come up with separate network protocols that can feed into and can supersede the control stream of a client, and also allow for two separate camera positions in the place of one. This is definitely doable, and - never having seen the code involved - I would estimate a proof of concept could be done at some 6 person months of effort (100 person days = 40k USD gross, dry estimate). 

 

The question is how to refinance and justify this. ED has stated on multiple occasions a highly lamentable fact: the overwhelming majority of players does not multi-play. Of those who do, I imagine again a minuscule sliver would actually use this feature (I love MP, but only 10% of my MP time is multi-crew, usually the Huey or Tomcat, never my C101 or L39 that would be used to train other pilots). Which brings me to the real issue: justifying this 6 months investment over other MP improvements (always assuming that there are some planned). Since there is a kludgy work-around (skype, zoom, others), would it be wise to 'squander' the effort on developing this instructor mode over other network features? Personally, I would think not, even though I'd love to eventually see it happen. But there are other network/multiplayer features that I would like to see before this particular one.

 

 

 

I think it would be easier than that. The V-pilot is already generating the input. The DCS module interprets the input it and applies it to the aircraft flight program and the internal instruments. This results in the actions of the aircraft within the 3d space including the instrument displays in the cockpit. All the data is always there. It need only be duplicated to a stream going to the attached instructor for it to be fed into his client to render the aircraft cockpit of the V-pilot whos cockpit he's sitting in.

 

So, everywhere a process produces output for rendering cockpit instruments and flight effects must be sent to the instructor stream. Then both clients render the results more or less at the same time.

 

The work is in determining all the points in the module program, which are creating output, writing a collection process, and a process to transmit the data over the network. Then on the instructor's client to accept the input to recreate the same aircraft the pilot is flying and render it for the instructor to see in his 3d space.

 

Basically, most of this is already working. Every time you see another player's aircraft, your client is using the other aircraft's pilot's flight data to determine how and where to reder the other aircraft. This only needs to be expanded to the cockpit and instruments.

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23 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

If I can stream on discord and watch streams without any performance hit with my 10Mbit prehistoric connection then anyone can. What extreme lag?

 

I googled discord screen share and found a bunch of hits talking about lag in the games of players doing the screen cast.

 

23 minutes ago, Furiz said:

That stream is being used over and over again and I don't rly see ppl complaining about performance hits on discord channel.

You can lock the channel used for the stream so only you and the person being the trainee can look at that stream.

 

The channel is the site you login to, to access it's threads and chats. If the stream can be locked by the streamer so that only those he chooses can view it, all the better.

 

23 minutes ago, Furiz said:

I can't help you with the fear of being ridiculed...

It is in human nature to try and fail, and how we deal with is what makes us stronger. It is ok to fail, and the ones that are trying to laugh at you for failing they are the weak ones.

 

I've spoken to too many people over the years about this. It's one reason very few use public voice-chat, especially if the language they are speaking is not their mother tongue. I can't change it. It's a fact of life.

 

23 minutes ago, Furiz said:

You said it...

 

So Discord it is;P (skype, zoom etc... ) 😜

 

That remains to be seen. One would have to compare the different products to determine which works the best. And it would still leave the question of motion sickness.

 

23 minutes ago, Furiz said:

If I can stream on discord and watch streams without any performance hit with my 10Mbit prehistoric connection then anyone can. What extreme lag?

 

DUDE! you're stuttering! 😋

 

23 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

 

That stream is being used over and over again and I don't rly see ppl complaining about performance hits on discord channel.

You can lock the channel used for the stream so only you and the person being the trainee can look at that stream.

 

I can't help you with the fear of being ridiculed...

It is in human nature to try and fail, and how we deal with is what makes us stronger. It is ok to fail, and the ones that are trying to laugh at you for failing they are the weak ones.

 

 

 

You said it...

 

 

So Discord it is;P (skype, zoom etc... ) 😜

 

If I can stream on discord and watch streams without any performance hit with my 10Mbit prehistoric connection then anyone can. What extreme lag?

 

 

That stream is being used over and over again and I don't rly see ppl complaining about performance hits on discord channel.

You can lock the channel used for the stream so only you and the person being the trainee can look at that stream.

 

I can't help you with the fear of being ridiculed...

It is in human nature to try and fail, and how we deal with is what makes us stronger. It is ok to fail, and the ones that are trying to laugh at you for failing they are the weak ones.

 

 

 

You said it...

 

 

So Discord it is;P (skype, zoom etc... ) 😜

 

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
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10 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

I've spoken to too many people over the years about this. It's one reason very few use public voice-chat, especially if the language they are speaking is not their mother tongue. I can't change it. It's a fact of life.

 

Well that is not the problem ED should be fixing, I can't help them to get self esteem, in fact no one can, not even the therapist, they have to do it them selves. And what better way to overcome your fear than to face it. 😛

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Maybe I misunderstood you; the way I read your idea was that the Instructor would also be able to fly the plane. In that case you would need a new layer in the game that works transparently with existing modules to switch control between instructor and student. As I see it, if the instructor is only observing, their plane may be required to receive control input from outside (as I discuss later).

To control a plane and make it backwards-compatible, you would need to implement this at control level, and have input switched at server (not client) level. I don't think that we can get around the fact that both clients need to be able to receive input from another client, switched by the server. That is going to cause headache: I think currently a module reads input directly from the devices, and then calculates the plane's next state from that. Only that status frame is then passed to the server.

 

Now, if we are talking observer-only, we might be in luck, and this could work if modules can accept the next state externally (current "replay a track" abilities makes me think this could be doable, as the Observer would simply be doing a track replay in real-time). That could be an approach, even if the observer is always a single frame behind (this could be a "special spectator" mode, where the observer can enter any module's cockpit they own a copy of and that is flown by another person in the game - and presumably consents to special observer. All this is predicated on the assumption that a module can re-create all relevant cockpit information from current status frames)

 

Anyway, there certainly are more ingenious people around who can come up with a better approaches. I honestly do not know, as I have no knowledge of ED's net code, and only speculate on what I can see how DCS MP mission scripting works - so I'm basically clueless 🙂

  

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8 hours ago, Furiz said:

 

Well that is not the problem ED should be fixing, I can't help them to get self esteem, in fact no one can, not even the therapist, they have to do it them selves. And what better way to overcome your fear than to face it. 😛

 

ED has to deal with the customers it has, not the customers it wants.

 

Please stop trying to talk about things of which you have absolutely no idea.

8 hours ago, cfrag said:

Maybe I misunderstood you; the way I read your idea was that the Instructor would also be able to fly the plane. In that case you would need a new layer in the game that works transparently with existing modules to switch control between instructor and student. As I see it, if the instructor is only observing, their plane may be required to receive control input from outside (as I discuss later).

To control a plane and make it backwards-compatible, you would need to implement this at control level, and have input switched at server (not client) level. I don't think that we can get around the fact that both clients need to be able to receive input from another client, switched by the server. That is going to cause headache: I think currently a module reads input directly from the devices, and then calculates the plane's next state from that. Only that status frame is then passed to the server.

 

Now, if we are talking observer-only, we might be in luck, and this could work if modules can accept the next state externally (current "replay a track" abilities makes me think this could be doable, as the Observer would simply be doing a track replay in real-time). That could be an approach, even if the observer is always a single frame behind (this could be a "special spectator" mode, where the observer can enter any module's cockpit they own a copy of and that is flown by another person in the game - and presumably consents to special observer. All this is predicated on the assumption that a module can re-create all relevant cockpit information from current status frames)

 

Anyway, there certainly are more ingenious people around who can come up with a better approaches. I honestly do not know, as I have no knowledge of ED's net code, and only speculate on what I can see how DCS MP mission scripting works - so I'm basically clueless 🙂

  

 

I only ever spoke about the instructor seeing the cockpit and having a pointer. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

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When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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System Specs.

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CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
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On 7/6/2021 at 7:20 AM, Furiz said:

 

You can do that with Discord Stream.

You're partially right. You can watch the student's screen using streaming software, but there's a delay. Might only be a small one for some people, but I get a good 5 or 6 second lag when I view content streamed like that. Also, not all of us are fortunate enough to have a good internet connection. Ther's still no fibre where I live, and while I can  happily play games online, video streaming is another matter. Constant dropouts and lag build up over time and I can find anything I say or type can lag by up to 20 seconds after a stream runs for a while.

 

Even with such poor internet speeds it's possible to fly together in MP aircraft without sync issues as the amount of data being sent/received is drastically smaller than that used by video streams. Allowing us to view another pilot's cockpit as if we were there, along with all the synchronised switches and displays, shouldn't present any more drain that any of the existing MP aircraft.

 

On 6/12/2021 at 7:02 AM, Furiz said:

You really don't need 2 seater or the ability to sit in some ones lap to be able to teach in DCS, you will only use it for few hours and then what? you want ED to model all that stuff for few hours of use,

 Does ED really need to model anything extra? Both pilots would obviously need to own the module, so you've got all the models you need. This is nothing more than requesting that they effectively create a new viewpoint in the cockpit for an observer/instructor to use. Everything exists already in aircraft like the Huey. You ask to join another person's aircraft, and they allow you into the instructor position. You don't need any more than that. 

 

With all due respect to some of the people that seem vehemently opposed to this whole idea, I'd like to remind you that this is a WISHLIST area of the forum. People come here to let ED know about things that they would like to see in DCS. It's not here for people to shoot ideas down because  it's something they wouldn't use. I could go and say how much I hate the idea of every suggestion for the planes I don't fly, but I don't because it doesn't matter to me. 

 

If ED decide that something is or isn't worth including then that's up to them. Many thanks to those who have contributed with helpful alternatives and or support for the idea. To others, some of whom seem to think that we should be certified instructors before being allowed to help people learn how to get the most out of DCS, well, good luck with your elitist attitudes. I thought we had a community here where people help each other out. Apparently some of you are too good for the rest of us.

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Although it seems simple enough to just add a second pilot slot in a cockpit, it may not be that simple. Nothing is simple. Also this might be an a issue for 3rd party Devs and their modules and not ED

 

It also seems like a lot of effort and workaround to cater to people who won’t just read the manuals or watch YouTube. There are a lot of complex and challenging games out there and I’m not aware of any that need this level of handholding. 

 

I would rather see ED’s effort go towards actually developing the game and fixing issues than stuff like this. 

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32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Although it seems simple enough to just add a second pilot slot in a cockpit, it may not be that simple.

Can you give any reasons why it wouldn't be?

 

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Nothing is simple.

Incorrect.

 

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Also this might be an a issue for 3rd party Devs and their modules and not ED

Why would it be?

 

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It also seems like a lot of effort and workaround to cater to people who won’t just read the manuals or watch YouTube. There are a lot of complex and challenging games out there and I’m not aware of any that need this level of handholding. 

Your awareness of games is irrelevant. Argument from incredulity is a fallacy for a reason. How many games do you know of that are mean to be study sims for something where exactly this kind of thing is part and parcel of what is used IRL to teach people how to do what they're simulating? Are you suggesting DCS should not be realistic? Are you saying that ED should not put efforts towards developing the game in the very direction and area the game is explicitly said to cater to in the sales bumf?

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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8 hours ago, frostycab said:

You're partially right. You can watch the student's screen using streaming software, but there's a delay. Might only be a small one for some people, but I get a good 5 or 6 second lag when I view content streamed like that. Also, not all of us are fortunate enough to have a good internet connection. Ther's still no fibre where I live, and while I can  happily play games online, video streaming is another matter. Constant dropouts and lag build up over time and I can find anything I say or type can lag by up to 20 seconds after a stream runs for a while.

 

Internet connection and stream lag is hardly EDs problem,

about the delay, I have 10Mbit connection (stone age I know but I can't get better) and I can still watch streams and stream, so pls quit the drama. You don't need fibre for that, it is much better to have fibre ofc.

I don't know how good are you in managing your computer, and why you are getting constant dropouts etc but ED can't be responsible for that.

 

8 hours ago, frostycab said:

Does ED really need to model anything extra? Both pilots would obviously need to own the module, so you've got all the models you need. This is nothing more than requesting that they effectively create a new viewpoint in the cockpit for an observer/instructor to use. Everything exists already in aircraft like the Huey. You ask to join another person's aircraft, and they allow you into the instructor position. You don't need any more than that.

 

But you already have that same thing with discord stream LMAO. It is literally the same, except that you cant move your head around independently, but you can just as well see what ever this trainee is seeing, and if you miss something you can tell him to look at the part of the plane you want to see.

If you could look independently, you would anyway tell him to click that switch that he missed and he would anyway need to turn his head around.

 

There is absolutely no need for this.

 

9 hours ago, frostycab said:

With all due respect to some of the people that seem vehemently opposed to this whole idea, I'd like to remind you that this is a WISHLIST area of the forum. People come here to let ED know about things that they would like to see in DCS. It's not here for people to shoot ideas down because  it's something they wouldn't use. I could go and say how much I hate the idea of every suggestion for the planes I don't fly, but I don't because it doesn't matter to me.

 

And this is also a forum, where people are free to express their opinions.

 

9 hours ago, frostycab said:

If ED decide that something is or isn't worth including then that's up to them. Many thanks to those who have contributed with helpful alternatives and or support for the idea. To others, some of whom seem to think that we should be certified instructors before being allowed to help people learn how to get the most out of DCS, well, good luck with your elitist attitudes. I thought we had a community here where people help each other out. Apparently some of you are too good for the rest of us.

 

Drama ;D awwww

 

Anyway Discord Stream is very helpful alternative.

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17 minutes ago, Furiz said:

There is absolutely no need for this.

…aside from all the myriad of reasons why this exists in many different forms in actual real-world aviation. But realism and study-simming isn't really something DCS is about, I guess.

 

17 minutes ago, Furiz said:

And this is also a forum, where people are free to express their opinions.

Your opinion has been noted and, being an objection to a wishlist item, is therefore entirely without value or relevance to the continued discussion.

 

What's being asked for here is for track replays to be playable in real-time from a network stream rather than just from a file. That is all.

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14 hours ago, Furiz said:

 

Internet connection and stream lag is hardly EDs problem,

about the delay, I have 10Mbit connection (stone age I know but I can't get better) and I can still watch streams and stream, so pls quit the drama. You don't need fibre for that, it is much better to have fibre ofc.

I don't know how good are you in managing your computer, and why you are getting constant dropouts etc but ED can't be responsible for that.

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There is absolutely no need for this.

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And this is also a forum, where people are free to express their opinions.

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Drama ;D awwww

 

I think we are all completely clear on your views on this matter. Thank you for contributing in such an eloquent, polite and welcoming fashion.

 

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Although it seems simple enough to just add a second pilot slot in a cockpit, it may not be that simple. Nothing is simple. Also this might be an a issue for 3rd party Devs and their modules and not ED

 

I agree that it may not be as easy as one might hope. I have no knowledge of such things. 

 

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It also seems like a lot of effort and workaround to cater to people who won’t just read the manuals or watch YouTube. There are a lot of complex and challenging games out there and I’m not aware of any that need this level of handholding.

 

Perhaps, but I do run into many people that do need a lot of handholding. No doubt they'll get there in the end. I'm just saying that such a system could help them to get to the point where they can enjoy the sim sooner rather than later and then progress on their own. I guess it comes down to who you actually run into and what their issues are.

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I would rather see ED’s effort go towards actually developing the game and fixing issues than stuff like this. 

 

I have absolutely no issue with this path of reasoning. We all constantly want it to be better. I would never expect it to be a major project, just something that could be slowly examined and looked at if a spare dev has a little bit of free time. (The only thing I could possibly counter that with is to ask if they needed to spend time adding cows. LOL)

 

You know, seeing just how divisive this thread has been I'm seriously having second-thoughts about asking for an ASW aspect to the sim in the future.... 😛

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I think this would be a great idea. Generally I’d love ED to enhance the „learning“ part of this study sim to the quality level of the simulated planes.

 

Bottom line: learning complex skills is hard. A good teacher and good lessons will often make a halfway competent students better than a natural prodigy without proper instruction. So everything should be done to make learning more efficient.

 

And after all almost none of us are prodigies and many potential customers are likely discouraged by the steep learning curve. An instructor mode might translate into a bigger customer base, so this would be a win win situation for ED and for learners.

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21 hours ago, Archduke said:

I think this would be a great idea. Generally I’d love ED to enhance the „learning“ part of this study sim to the quality level of the simulated planes.

 

Bottom line: learning complex skills is hard. A good teacher and good lessons will often make a halfway competent students better than a natural prodigy without proper instruction. So everything should be done to make learning more efficient.

 

And after all almost none of us are prodigies and many potential customers are likely discouraged by the steep learning curve. An instructor mode might translate into a bigger customer base, so this would be a win win situation for ED and for learners.

 

You are all talking about proper instructions, and that we are learning the wrong way, and how the lack of proper instructions are turning people and ED is losing customers etc etc, and and that this mode will ensure more customers, but no one is talking about these instructors.

 

Are they certified to teach the proper way? - I can bet they are not, they are  just gamers, like Grim Reapers or Spudknocker, not rly certified to instruct properly. I saw some of their lessons, they do fail on some stuff too. It's not bad but it is clearly not the proper instruction.

 

Where did these instructors learn their skills? - at home, behind a computer like we all did.

 

Lastly, lets say these guys are certified, you think they will teach some one for free? they would charge that 100%, even these youtubers charge their work, through youtube, you think they did that for free? lmao, they did it to make money, they are gonna say its for the viewers etc... bullshit, money bro just money.

and you think they wouldn't turn people down, when these new players learn that this STEEP learning curve, that they can't overcome without an instructor, is gonna take even more money from them.

 

Instructors in my world need to have a certificate issued by a legal body, for example a driving instructor, and specially an instructor on a fighter jet. I wouldn't sit in a real jet with some guy that has 0 certificates.

 

Now you are talking about a study sim, and you want an instructor mode, and everything to be as close as professional as it can be but then it is ok that we have you tubers making money or some jokers making money in private session off those "proper" instructions.

That really doesn't make any sense.

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17 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Now you are talking about a study sim, and you want an instructor mode, and everything to be as close as professional as it can be but then it is ok that we have you tubers making money or some jokers making money in private session off those "proper" instructions.

That really doesn't make any sense.

It makes all the sense in the world for a study sim to have an instructor mode because that's part of how the topic is studied (and taught), and the closer you can get to doing it in a professional manner the better. Whether some people use it non-professionally is wholly irrelevant. If we were to not add features for that reason, DCS would not exist as a commercial product and would only  be available to the various AF contract clients around the world.

 

And that most definitely doesn't make any sense.


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If a “student” needs someone else to actually operate the aircraft for them, they’re too lazy and not worth an instructor’s time. 
There’s also value in active learning vs passive. Simply watching a video or someone else operate the cockpit video isn’t active participation. There’s a role for passive learning but being active is the next step. You retain more when you’re active. 
If I was an instructor and I said “press OSB 7 on the right DDI” and the student didn’t know what that meant… time to go back and read the manual. Then we can continue next time. We’re done for today…


Edited by SharpeXB

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

If a “student” needs someone else to actually operate the aircraft for them

…then you're just once again making up irrelevant nonsense that no-one has asked for except you, right there, right now.

 

Oh, and before you say that every pilot in the world is lazy and not worth their instructors' times, maybe you should get a single shred of a clue as to how flying is actually taught. I know that you break out in hives at the mere thought of doing research, but this wilful ignorance is absolutely disgusting. You understand that training aircraft have dual controls, right? You understand that they have this for a reason, yes? You understand that this is not a matter of laziness but of hard-earned lessons that are in place to keep people alive to the point where this “laziness” you're making incoherent gurgling noises about is mandated by law.

 

You need to apologise and stop posting.

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s also value in active learning vs passive.

This is active learning. So we can safely conclude that you are fully on board with this idea.

 

Also, it's utterly hilarious to watch you now denounce the use of videos as a learning tool when you are one of the foremost proponents of their use on the entire forum, going to great lengths to pathetically use them as an excuse not to implement better learning tools for various modes of flight. And yet, now, all of a sudden, they are no good any more because you must once again use them — this time in the exact opposite way — as an excuse not to implement better learning tools in the game. The hypocrisy is astounding.


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I find the comments countering  the op to be such a stretch as to strain credulity . In my opinion , they really reflect a sense of elitism held by the posters , rather than an attempt to sincerely engage .

Elite flight simmers...for god's sake , it's a game (tho even i like to differentiate between flight-simming and gaming) . No one is going to win the Collier prize here !

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Ok, maybe we should remember that DCS is and will remain a game, regardless of how much some of us invest in this game. So just let’s calm down.

 

I don’t intend to say much more on the topic since there already has been said enough. Just so much: I may be a quite bad virtual pilot but I really do know teaching because that’s my job. I know teaching one on one as a violinist and teaching groups as a teacher.

 

And the hardest part of teaching is to understand what it is exactly that my student needs. I need to see and understand what he does, how he does it and why he does it. So I need to see as close as possible everything he does. And then I need to show him as exactly as possible what he should do and how.

 

This is why I think an instructor mode would be a great addition to DCS. Will there be lots of non-professionals teaching other newbies? Of course. But even this will help people to become better. And the nice thing is, this works in both directions: teaching really helps you to think things through and become better yourself.

 

 Last of all, this like many other possible additions to DCS is about choice: Don’t like it? Don’t use it.

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I think between the manuals, tutorial & practice missions, community-made guides, forum, screen sharing tools and YouTube channels, there is enough material out there for anyone with the aptitude and motivation, to learn DCS. I would be against ED spending more resources in this direction. There are too many other more important things for them to work on. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I think between the manuals, tutorial & practice missions, community-made guides, forum and YouTube channels

You mean those youtube channels that you said will not help you all that much?

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I would be against ED spending more resources in this direction.

Thus we can safely conclude that this is probably one of the best things that ED can spend resources on. Given your success rate in being right about anything, this statement from you can only lead to the conclusion that it is one of the best ideas ever and should receive the highest priority. Since all the pieces already exist in the game as it is, it wouldn't even require that many resources to begin with.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are too many other more important things for them to work on. 

Such as? Can you name a single one? It has been fully established that you don't know how anything in DCS works, but can you at least offer a guess as to what “important things” would in some way compete for competence with this expansion to the replay system?


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While streaming works for many users and for many situations, it is not suitable than more of a cockpit use.

 

What we need is a instructor that sits in the same cockpit but doesn't necessarily need to control the aircraft, but at least would have few things.

 

1) On request a trainee can give controls on instructor so proper maneuver can be shown. I would say this requires to be on same server.

 

2) Have a way for instructor to click the cockpit elements and the trainee would see a "action box" for it with proper numbers to follow the order. 

 

3) Have a virtual view box/dot to other, so both can see where other is looking so "Your another left" or "1'clock high!" in dog fight and ground attack are eliminated.

 

I am not so sure about controlling other aircraft, as it is IMHO more conflict with a trainers purpose to share controls and should be one main reasons to sell license by offering the second seat (front) for free by anyone who owning the license is willing to open front seat for someone else while owner sits at rear seat and has override for controls.

 

But means to click all switches, buttons and such and get them not just visible with the glowing golden boxes, you would get them in replay as well. With delay like 3 seconds. This would help many as well to make the tutorial guides in video or track file when all the clicks are recorded and played back.

 

Combine it with a virtual view box / view center dot that would show where to look, it would help many not just in real time, but in track files and as well in tutorial videos.

 

We already have almost all these things, they need to be just applied slightly differently. Like why it is required to use scripts to make instruments clickable in wanted order etc, when we have mouse to record the clicking order? 

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1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

I am not so sure about controlling other aircraft, as it is IMHO more conflict with a trainers purpose to share controls and should be one main reasons to sell license by offering the second seat (front) for free by anyone who owning the license is willing to open front seat for someone else while owner sits at rear seat and has override for controls.

 

 

Let's just 'share' everything... controls, pits, open mikes (even after the mission ends 🙃  ) Who knows, perhaps some talented modders could control my input while I'm doing gunzo...

 

No reading, no studying, no patience --   no simulation.

Gaming approach, by all means!   If you can wiggle the stick and make your plane do crazy stuff and shoot guns... you'll get 'there' in no time.

 

So, it seems like aerial refueling was just an intro...    gripes runs and goes ziplip. 😬

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24 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

Let's just 'share' everything... controls, pits, open mikes (even after the mission ends 🙃  ) Who knows, perhaps some talented modders could control my input while I'm doing gunzo...

 

No reading, no studying, no patience --   no simulation.

Gaming approach, by all means!   If you can wiggle the stick and make your plane do crazy stuff and shoot guns... you'll get 'there' in no time.

 

So, it seems like aerial refueling was just an intro...    gripes runs and goes ziplip. 😬

 

Slippery Slope.jpg

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