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New mig 29 version?


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On 6/14/2021 at 1:32 AM, pepin1234 said:

...just pointing an example: You are facing a fleet of Mig-21 without tactical information from GCI. that is not a simulator.

Yes it is - the simulation of conflict the mission designer created within the DCS limitations. Just as you can simulate EWR directed Mig-29 against some F-4s without AWACS support. Really, you should do that, you'd be a lot less frustrated.

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In short, we want a Mig-29 Full Fidelity... That's all. 😀

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On 6/16/2021 at 1:41 AM, draconus said:

Yes it is - the simulation of conflict the mission designer created within the DCS limitations. Just as you can simulate EWR directed Mig-29 against some F-4s without AWACS support. Really, you should do that, you'd be a lot less frustrated.


I guess you don’t know the difference between EWR and GCI. And no, I will not leave F-4 without AWACS while the Red side have EWR. 

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12 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:


I guess you don’t know the difference between EWR and GCI. And no, I will not leave F-4 without AWACS while the Red side have EWR. 

 

Meanwhile AWACS was available from 40s by blue side, the red side was available the Tu-142 on 60s and A-50 on 1984. Blue side has EWR, but none has added to blue side.

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57 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Meanwhile AWACS was available from 40s by blue side, the red side was available the Tu-142 on 60s and A-50 on 1984. Blue side has EWR, but none has added to blue side.

Tu-142 was maritime surveillance and ASW. Tu-126 was AWACS right?


Edited by draconus

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1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

 

Meanwhile AWACS was available from 40s by blue side, the red side was available the Tu-142 on 60s and A-50 on 1984. Blue side has EWR, but none has added to blue side.


those AWACS from 40's as you said were literally crap… They were not able to detect a decent threat. Otherwise Vietnamese Migs will be a Comic instead real victories.

 

that’s why they wanted to bring to the table the modern Era instead the real loses from the pass. Also let’s said the new E3 was not so fantastic as you get unrealistically in DCS. Officially told by Serbians they were low low and they never were detected. As enemies were high they were forced to climb to engage only with short range missiles. All victories over the malfunctioning Mig were over 20000 feet 


Edited by pepin1234

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20 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:


those AWACS from 40's as you said were literally crap… They were not able to detect a decent threat. Otherwise Vietnamese Migs will be a Comic instead real victories.

 

that’s why they wanted to bring to the table the modern Era instead the real loses from the pass. Also let’s said the new E3 was not so fantastic as you get unrealistically in DCS. Officially told by Serbians they were low low and they never were detected. As enemies were high they were forced to climb to engage only with short range missiles. All victories over the malfunctioning Mig were over 20000 feet 

 

 

Yes, Western technology has always "crap"...... 

- EC-121 from 51 to 78
- E-1 from 56 to 77

- E-2 from 64 
- E-3 from 77
But A-50 has Death Starts and never Western was EW or CGI.

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50 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

... Officially told by Serbians they were low low and they never were detected. As enemies were high they were forced to climb to engage only with short range missiles. All victories over the malfunctioning Mig were over 20000 feet....

 

In this particular encounter (2×F-15 vs 2xMiG-29) it seems that flying low really did hide them from AWACS as the F-15 mentioned that AWACS picked the Fulcrums up only after they habe climbed. The Eagle driver also remarked that the AWACS operator was all over the place and that was actually confusing them more than helping them. The Eagles were picked up by Serbian EWR or GCI some 50km from the MiGs position.

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1 hour ago, pepin1234 said:


those AWACS from 40's as you said were literally crap… They were not able to detect a decent threat. Otherwise Vietnamese Migs will be a Comic instead real victories.

 

that’s why they wanted to bring to the table the modern Era instead the real loses from the pass. Also let’s said the new E3 was not so fantastic as you get unrealistically in DCS. Officially told by Serbians they were low low and they never were detected. As enemies were high they were forced to climb to engage only with short range missiles. All victories over the malfunctioning Mig were over 20000 feet 

 

 

E3 Radar has like 100knot notch filter too. 

 

Also to 9 lines comment. Really we are talking about the mig29 because it existed and was designed to work in a very specific environment, which DCS currently doesn't model well. 

 

The Specific system on the Mig29 that is relevant to this is the Lazur datalink, or possibly TAKT as it was capable of carrying it. And those datalinks should be included and modeled. DCS should also add a better AI GCI/AWACS function and interface.

 


Edited by Harlikwin
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2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

E3 Radar has like 100knot notch filter too. 

 

Also to 9 lines comment. Really we are talking about the mig29 because it existed and was designed to work in a very specific environment, which DCS currently doesn't model well. 

 

The Specific system on the Mig29 that is relevant to this is the Lazur datalink, or possibly TAKT as it was capable of carrying it. And those datalinks should be included and modeled. DCS should also add a better AI GCI/AWACS function and interface.

 

 


I agree. We were talking about AWACS just because the E3 was used against Mig-29 in Serbia and pilots told in some interviews they never were track at that low altitude. Also you can see the debriefing of the American pilot who did those victories and he never mentioned the Migs tracking at such low altitude. After Migs climbed they were easy prey. All the contrary we got in DCS Mig got kill as potatoes on the ground…

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I mean how far away was the E3 from the target area?  Could they have been in the radar shadow caused by earth's curvature?  Were they hiding behind terrain?  Or were they just simple just too far to be detected in lookdown mode?  (also the notch size is selectable by the AWACS crew not sure by how much but it is a thing).  Its one advantage the F15's radar offers is that in the absence of info from the EW system due to above limitations you can still find targets on your own.  The 29's radar (in particular the A) is not as good in this role, with more limited range, worse look down characteristics, and from what I've been told a number of other issues with the radar one that I remember being told about is a rather finicky Search to STT in some situations.

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2 hours ago, nighthawk2174 said:

I mean how far away was the E3 from the target area?  Could they have been in the radar shadow caused by earth's curvature?  Were they hiding behind terrain?  Or were they just simple just too far to be detected in lookdown mode?  (also the notch size is selectable by the AWACS crew not sure by how much but it is a thing).  Its one advantage the F15's radar offers is that in the absence of info from the EW system due to above limitations you can still find targets on your own.  The 29's radar (in particular the A) is not as good in this role, with more limited range, worse look down characteristics, and from what I've been told a number of other issues with the radar one that I remember being told about is a rather finicky Search to STT in some situations.

 

The two "systems" are totally different. The engagement from the F15 POV or the mig29 POV are 2 totally different things.

 

Mig29:, gets a call from GCI that there is a target in the area, gets range, bearing, etc. In this case they are flying low to avoid NATO AWACS (Which they do successfully). GCI steers them toward a favorable engagement point.

 

F15:  No mention of migs from AWACs. Has own big radar, sees bandits that the AWACS can't see. Argues with AWACS about targets. Decides, F-it, I'm engaging cuz thats what makes sense. Eventually AWACS notices bandits as F15 is prosecuting engagement.

 

Thats RL. Upsides and  downsides to the "systems" problem is that ED models the plane, not  the context or overall "System" of how its supposed to be used. Hence the in a  Vacuum  analogy. 

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2 hours ago, nighthawk2174 said:

I mean how far away was the E3 from the target area?  Could they have been in the radar shadow caused by earth's curvature?  Were they hiding behind terrain?  Or were they just simple just too far to be detected in lookdown mode?  (also the notch size is selectable by the AWACS crew not sure by how much but it is a thing).  Its one advantage the F15's radar offers is that in the absence of info from the EW system due to above limitations you can still find targets on your own.  The 29's radar (in particular the A) is not as good in this role, with more limited range, worse look down characteristics, and from what I've been told a number of other issues with the radar one that I remember being told about is a rather finicky Search to STT in some situations.

 

Few hundred miles most likely. Issues  were most likely a combination of terrain masking and own radar limitations. From what I've read the E3's notch filter is like 100kts or more. And from the book it sounds like they were more likely in ATC mode than anything else.

 

I mean IRL there have been times where AWACS ordered F15's to engage friendlies. So the actual fog of war is/was very much a real issue. Of  course in DCS its perfect, and it doesn't really matter since no actual lives are on the line.

 


Edited by Harlikwin
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38 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

F15:  No mention of migs from AWACs. Has own big radar, sees bandits that the AWACS can't see. Argues with AWACS about targets. Decides, F-it, I'm engaging cuz thats what makes sense. Eventually AWACS notices bandits as F15 is prosecuting engagement.

 

Specifically they called those aircraft hostile on their own due to point of origin.  That should say a little something about the tracking.

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12 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

Specifically they called those aircraft hostile on their own due to point of origin.  That should say a little something about the tracking.

 

Well specifically they said mig29's were on the wrong side of the border or whatever DCA line they were using. But yeah, awacs isn't the eye of Sauron. 

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Assuming 800km is correct, that is rather far for the AWACS to detect targets.  Forgetting about the issue of radar horizon; it would straight up be out of its detection range if they weren't heading directly for the AWACS due to reduced RCS/lower closing velocity especially if you were getting noise from ground clutter.

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Just now, nighthawk2174 said:

Assuming 800km is correct, that is rather far for the AWACS to detect targets.  Forgetting about the issue of radar horizon; it would straight up be out of its detection range if they weren't heading directly for the AWACS due to reduced RCS/lower closing velocity especially if you were getting noise from ground clutter.

My bad, I had the distance wrong. I was more 350km rather than 800km.

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One more interesting thing, the two F-15s did not realize that there were 2 MiGs until some 20NM (~37km) distance.  Eagle wingman was in STT true, but until this, as far as F-15s were concerned, they were dealing with one target. I know for a fact that the MiG drivers were flying in a fairly tight formation (visual range), so it makes one wonder about the radar resolution also. Not really MiG-29 related, but more of a general DCS comment.

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