Landing Gotchas

[bbrz]

What is the problem? Even without wheel brakes the nose will start to drop.

[ruddy122]

Honestly I forget with Aerobraking and wheel brakes forget you can extend the speed brakes even more to help slow down


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[TobiasA]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb bbrz:

As mentioned before, spool up for the go around case isn't the reason or a factor.

 

The reason is that the F100-PW-200 has a slightly better throttle response at higher RPM, hence with the boards speed control is a tad easier.

The -220 and the F110-GE-100 the difference is basically negligible.

 

True, but it is the case on many aircraft and not a bad habit to have. It is mainly due to the ground effect nowadays, but I find overall handling easier with the boards out. If you have the boards out, it is easier to maintain AOA on a light aircraft that doesn't brake well otherwise.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by TobiasA

[Frederf]

Speedbrakes won't hold beyond 80% open with lg handle down or no nlg wow. They will otherwise. You can always open sb fully by holding the switch at any time and it's fine on approach just get them back to 43 before touchdown.

 

One reason to minimize roll on touchdown is that tailerons control roll and they are in danger of hitting the ground.

 

Crosswind technique is wings level crab. One wing down with lots of rudder like a Piper Cub is bad because of how FLCS changes on touchdown.

 

11 Aoa approach is the easiest and I recommend lots of experience with it before trying 13 aoa. You always touchdown at 13 regardless of 11 or 13 approach and it's harder to roundout at constant 13 using throttle than burning 2 degrees in the transition. It's ok to slightly exceed 13 in approach but just get back to 13 to touch.

 

And yes every landing, sb held open, throttle idle stick full back once in three point attitude. Normal landing you don't brake until 3 point attitude. Only min run you brake 2 point. Slamming the nose wheel down is to be avoided so as aerobrake ends around 100 cushion fall with aggressive stick back. You can aero much slower but then you can't arrest the nose rate with stick. Using brakes causes the nose to come down harder, not softer.

 

Min run landing you get on brakes right away in 3 point aero. The torque will prevent staying in aero quickly but keep it there as long as possible while full effort braking.

[SCPanda]

On 6/12/2021 at 8:26 PM, TobiasA said:

The F-16's brakes won't extend fully when the gear is out unless you have weight on wheels because they would touch the ground first if you get your nose too high so you gotta manually extend them fully after the nose wheel is on the ground.

 

 

On 6/12/2021 at 9:25 PM, Bremspropeller said:

You can override the 43° speedbrake-limit, by holding the switch aft. Once you release the switch, the boards go back to 43°.

 

 

 

 

 

Thx for the input guys. Unfortunately, in DCS, our F-16's speedbrake works kind of weird. If you had your speedbrake fully extended before putting down the gear, the speedbrake will retract to I believe 43 degrees, which I think it's how it should work right? However, if you hold the switch aft and release the switch, the board extends fully and stays that way, it does not go back to 43 degrees. Also, if you extend the speedbrake after putting the gear down, the board can actually extends fully and also stays that way. Is this wrong? (I believe it is)

 

During touch down, with the fully extended board, if you hold the green donut (13 degrees) for aerobraking, you can actually see the speedbrake touches the ground in the external view. Although it does not result in any damage in the game, it does look awfully wrong. The weird thing is, after rear wheel touches the ground for a while, the board will then self retract to the 43 degree, but why would the FCS allow it to be extended fully without holding the the switch all the way before? 

 

So based on your description, the way the speedbrakes works in real life makes total sense, but in DCS, I guess there is something wrong with it. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by SCPanda

[=Panther=]

1 hour ago, SCPanda said:

 

 

Thx for the input guys. Unfortunately, in DCS, our F-16's speedbrake works kind of weird. If you had your speedbrake fully extended before putting down the gear, the speedbrake will retract to I believe 43 degrees, which I think it's how it should work right? However, if you hold the switch aft and release the switch, the board extends fully and stays that way, it does not go back to 43 degrees. Also, if you extend the speedbrake after putting the gear down, the board can actually extends fully and also stays that way. Is this wrong? (I believe it is)

 

During touch down, with the fully extended board, if you hold the green donut (13 degrees) for aerobraking, you can actually see the speedbrake touches the ground in the external view. Although it does not result in any damage in the game, it does look awfully wrong. The weird thing is, after rear wheel touches the ground for a while, the board will then self retract to the 43 degree, but why would the FCS allow it to be extended fully without holding the the switch all the way before? 

 

So based on your description, the way the speedbrakes works in real life makes total sense, but in DCS, I guess there is something wrong with it. 

 

Do you have a track of this behavior? That is not the experience I see with the speedbrakes, but you're not the first person to say they have experienced it. 

Gear down and locked, the speedbrakes will open fully if switch is held but will retard to 43° when switch is released. If speedbrakes are opened fully before the gear is down and locked, they will retard to 43° once the gear is down and locked. If gear is up the speedbrakes will remain at their extended state at the time the switch is released. This could be fully open, partial, or anywhere in between. If the gear is down and locked, and the speedbrake switch is held to open, the speedbrakes will remain in their fully open state. Once the NLG compresses, the 43° limit is gone, and opening the speedbrake fully can be commanded without holding the switch.

[SCPanda]

18 minutes ago, =Panther= said:

Do you have a track of this behavior? That is not the experience I see with the speedbrakes, but you're not the first person to say they have experienced it. 

Gear down and locked, the speedbrakes will open fully if switch is held but will retard to 43° when switch is released. If speedbrakes are opened fully before the gear is down and locked, they will retard to 43° once the gear is down and locked. If gear is up the speedbrakes will remain at their extended state at the time the switch is released. This could be fully open, partial, or anywhere in between. If the gear is down and locked, and the speedbrake switch is held to open, the speedbrakes will remain in their fully open state. Once the NLG compresses, the 43° limit is gone, and opening the speedbrake fully can be commanded without holding the switch.

Sorry I don't. But I have seen this behavior in DCS every time I land (well when I look at the replay from the external view of course). 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by SCPanda

[Frederf]

5 hours ago, SCPanda said:

 

 

If you had your speedbrake fully extended before putting down the gear, the speedbrake will retract to I believe 43 degrees, which I think it's how it should work right? Correct. However, if you hold the switch aft and release the switch, the board extends fully and stays that way, it does not go back to 43 degrees. Incorrect assuming gear is down while airborne, but explanation incoming. Also, if you extend the speedbrake after putting the gear down, the board can actually extends fully and also stays that way. Is this wrong? (I believe it is)

 

During touch down, with the fully extended board, if you hold the green donut (13 degrees) for aerobraking, you can actually see the speedbrake touches the ground in the external view. Although it does not result in any damage in the game, it does look awfully wrong. The weird thing is, after rear wheel touches the ground for a while, the board will then self retract to the 43 degree, but why would the FCS allow it to be extended fully without holding the the switch all the way before? 

 

So based on your description, the way the speedbrakes works in real life makes total sense, but in DCS, I guess there is something wrong with it. 

 

 

I think this depends on how your controls are configured. The real switch is three position with the extend position being spring loaded. It is impossible for a pilot to remove his finger from the switch and have the switch remain in the extend position and the speedbrakes continue to open. There is a spring and it will return to the center hold position. Without the pilot actively holding the switch against this spring the speedbrakes switch will return to the hold position and the speedbrakes will hold at the current position or close to maximum allowable position depending on the landing gear state.

 

It sounds like your particular controls are set that you don't have this spring action and the switch remains in the extend position with your flesh fingers not touching the controls. If it is possible for you to continue opening the speedbrakes without your hands holding a switch then you have an unrealistic control which will have unrealistic behavior. If you would describe your control hardware and how it is configured I think this could be explained and possibly reconfigured to be more accurate.

[SCPanda]

28 minutes ago, Frederf said:

 

I think this depends on how your controls are configured. The real switch is three position with the extend position being spring loaded. It is impossible for a pilot to remove his finger from the switch and have the switch remain in the extend position and the speedbrakes continue to open. There is a spring and it will return to the center hold position. Without the pilot actively holding the switch against this spring the speedbrakes switch will return to the hold position and the speedbrakes will hold at the current position or close to maximum allowable position depending on the landing gear state.

 

It sounds like your particular controls are set that you don't have this spring action and the switch remains in the extend position with your flesh fingers not touching the controls. If it is possible for you to continue opening the speedbrakes without your hands holding a switch then you have an unrealistic control which will have unrealistic behavior. If you would describe your control hardware and how it is configured I think this could be explained and possibly reconfigured to be more accurate.

The physical switch I use on my throttle is a 3 way switch that automatically centers in the middle (to clarify: not a axis but a 3 way switch). So in the way I set up my controls in DCS, if I hold the switch aft (or what ever position you call it) the speedbrake in the game will extend, but whenever I stop holding it and the switch recenters, the speedbrake will stop extending and hold what ever degree it stopped at (if not fully extended). If I press fwd on my switch the speedbrake in game will close (I don't have to hold it fwd). So I guess my control setup is the same as how it works in real life according to your description? 

[=Panther=]

21 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

The physical switch I use on my throttle is a 3 way switch that automatically centers in the middle (to clarify: not a axis but a 3 way switch). So in the way I set up my controls in DCS, if I hold the switch aft (or what ever position you call it) the speedbrake in the game will extend, but whenever I stop holding it and the switch recenters, the speedbrake will stop extending and hold what ever degree it stopped at (if not fully extended). If I press fwd on my switch the speedbrake in game will close (I don't have to hold it fwd). So I guess my control setup is the same as how it works in real life according to your description? 

Yes aft (outboard) is spring-loaded to off (center) and the forward (inboard) has a detent keeping it in closed (not spring-loaded to center).
 

Identical design to the Warthog, Cougar, at Winwing throttles, possible others but those are my limit with experience. 

[ruddy122]

Thanks for the tips

Able to land at Batumi (8050x197)

Full Aerobraking and boards at 43 plus wheel brakes at the end

My error was setting up on Approach at 13 AOA and did not know how hard to do it right

Plus if you burn down fuel to 2000 you can land easily it worked for me

Other tip is aim point control

your VV at the RWY Threshold to not use up too much runway you will need it on rollout it worked for me


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[TobiasA]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb SCPanda:

 

 

Thx for the input guys. Unfortunately, in DCS, our F-16's speedbrake works kind of weird. If you had your speedbrake fully extended before putting down the gear, the speedbrake will retract to I believe 43 degrees, which I think it's how it should work right? However, if you hold the switch aft and release the switch, the board extends fully and stays that way, it does not go back to 43 degrees. Also, if you extend the speedbrake after putting the gear down, the board can actually extends fully and also stays that way. Is this wrong? (I believe it is)

 

During touch down, with the fully extended board, if you hold the green donut (13 degrees) for aerobraking, you can actually see the speedbrake touches the ground in the external view. Although it does not result in any damage in the game, it does look awfully wrong. The weird thing is, after rear wheel touches the ground for a while, the board will then self retract to the 43 degree, but why would the FCS allow it to be extended fully without holding the the switch all the way before? 

 

So based on your description, the way the speedbrakes works in real life makes total sense, but in DCS, I guess there is something wrong with it. 

 

 

What do you have mapped as speedbrake command?
I have two buttons mapped (to be exact, the same button but shifted), on to FWD and one to AFT/Extend (Momentarily). When I have the gear out, the boards go back to 43 degree unless I command fully open, then they extend fully as long as I hold the button or weight is on the nose wheel.

[Bremspropeller]

If regular landings are boring you out, you might want to try a few touch and goes on this chopper field somewhere northeast of Kutasi:

 

 

 

The approach is fairly steep due to buildings and trees on short final, but you should have no issues in a reasonably clean jet.

[Frederf]

It would be easier to diagnose if the HOTAS controls animated in relation to input like some other modules. Anyway, your description is exactly right. I don't understand why your SB were 100% held open with gear down and locked but no NLG WOW with switch in hold position. Maybe you came down too hard and broke the gear? The self-close logic depends on right MLG fully extended and locked. If gear is in transition or otherwise down fully down it won't self-close.

 

Being in the two-point attitude with speedbrake switch centered and brakes holding >43 is not normal behavior and it's not what I see happening when I do it. If you can make a track showing this behavior it would make a good bug report.

[SCPanda]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:23 AM, Frederf said:

It would be easier to diagnose if the HOTAS controls animated in relation to input like some other modules. Anyway, your description is exactly right. I don't understand why your SB were 100% held open with gear down and locked but no NLG WOW with switch in hold position. Maybe you came down too hard and broke the gear? The self-close logic depends on right MLG fully extended and locked. If gear is in transition or otherwise down fully down it won't self-close.

 

Being in the two-point attitude with speedbrake switch centered and brakes holding >43 is not normal behavior and it's not what I see happening when I do it. If you can make a track showing this behavior it would make a good bug report.

Nah, I flare in all my landings and the touchdowns are very gentle. I am not a Hornet pilot and I hate how Hornet lands so come down hard is something I really despise. 

 

I will check the speedbrake behavior again and make a track/bug report if I found it wrong. Thx man.