Map in pilots seat

[ZeroReady]

In the pilots cockpit, ride side of the dash is a map. Is it just a paper map or is it a moving map display? It doesn't look like a moving map but the box containing it looks really big, and there are always markings on the map in the videos. How does it work?

[Ramsay]

22 hours ago, ZeroReady said:

How does it work?

IRL it takes 2 differently scaled paper maps, cut into 220×168mm sheets so they cover the required zone. There's a moving "+" fitted to a transparent tape that's driven by the doppler radar system. You set the scale appropriately, position the "+" at your current location on the map, the doppler system then moves the "+" as the aircraft flies.

 

If the doppler system drifts to much, you'll adjust the "+" to be closer to your current location i.e. using visual landmarks.

 

DCS is modelling most of the system. As it's a paper map IRL - DCS also shows the waypoints/route drawn on the map.

 

DCS Screen shot

 

In the above example the route leg is

 

distance (km)                         20.0 km

--------------- HEADING =   --------  130°

time (minutes)                        04 min ?

 

More detail about the moving map here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4456963#post4456963

 

In operation https://youtu.be/DH_FNrZXgms?t=1007

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Ramsay
Add picture and route info.

[ZeroReady]

That's awesome, I love Soviet tech. What a brilliant way to make a low tech moving map. Thanks for explaining.

[JesseJames38]

Pretty much what Ramsey said.   Not correct but noticed in one of the videos. Wags took and magnified the map inside the map box.  Apparently there is two different scale settings for the map box in real life.  As for DCS it appears they have it set up that one can change the zoom on the map in the map box on the fly.   Honestly this isnt how it would work in real life.  One would only have two choices for map sizes and you would have to replace the map for what one you would like to use.  I wonder if they will change this in the future.  I also wonder if this will always zoom into the location of where you start the mission, or maybe where the aircraft is currently.   Be nice if the mission editor or maybe the rearm screen you could select a section of map you want to display in the map box... 

 

[ZeroReady]

Yeah that seems like a lot of underlying code that doesn't yet exist in dcs to be able to handle that. But who knows, maybe they'll be able to shoehorn it in somehow. Either way I love it, I really enjoy flying without all the bells and whistles of the newer aircraft. And the Soviets had some really innovative ways of solving aviation problems. 

[Blackeye]

6 hours ago, ZeroReady said:

That's awesome, I love Soviet tech. What a brilliant way to make a low tech moving map. Thanks for explaining.

 

Those existed all over the world back then though - even some civilian aircraft had them, e.g. Hawker Siddeley Trident:

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Blackeye

[Harlikwin]

The fancy western ones used a bit of microfilm for the map projected onto a TV screen. 

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

The fancy western ones used a bit of microfilm for the map projected onto a TV screen. 

 

IIRC that's what the early Tornado did. You could even overlay the projected map with the ground mapping radar.

[Harlikwin]

4 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

 

IIRC that's what the early Tornado did. You could even overlay the projected map with the ground mapping radar.

 

Yup tornado, and early harriers as well. Probably a host of others too, I just don't know for sure exactly which ones, I wouldn't be surprised if like A-6, or F111 did too. 

[YoYo]

Btw does it work on video? Did you notice it? The plotter point is very small so hard to see it.

Edited June 15, 2021 by YoYo

[Bunny Clark]

11 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Yup tornado, and early harriers as well. Probably a host of others too, I just don't know for sure exactly which ones, I wouldn't be surprised if like A-6, or F111 did too. 

The A and B Hornets used a microfilm moving map display as well, with graphics superimposed over it by the DDI display computer. It was officially the "HI" but pilots called it the "fishbowl" because it used a fresnel combiner lens that caused a distortion. 

[Scofflaw]

Is this system functional in the current version of the hind?  I only got the little green light to appear once, and otherwise the system is always off.  When it was on, the location indicator was going in a completely different direction - I was heading northwest, the indicator on the map had me going south.

 

The doppler system doesn't seem to work for me at all either.  I have a decent amount of practice in the Mi8, so I feel like I am operating it properly.

[kengou]

Works fine for me on a hotstart. Haven't tried cold start yet. Very possible you missed a step or two.

[sublime]

It never really works for me either.  I wish I knew how to use it lol.

That said I read somewhere crews always said it was the first thing to mess up..?

Also - does the switch 'send Doppler info' (you see wags switch it in unguided video) - does that mess up the Doppler map? It's totally anecdotal but I feel like maybe it interrupts it's information flow?

The only thing I can do for sure is move the map to adjust it because I see obvious landmarks.

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Scofflaw said:

Is this system functional in the current version of the hind?  I only got the little green light to appear once, and otherwise the system is always off.  When it was on, the location indicator was going in a completely different direction - I was heading northwest, the indicator on the map had me going south.

 

The doppler system doesn't seem to work for me at all either.  I have a decent amount of practice in the Mi8, so I feel like I am operating it properly.

 

On the Mi-24 the location indicator seems to be drifting seriously. On a 20 km route it can be off by 2-5 km, and really move to wrong direction.

On the Mi-8 what tested by starting it from random position, flying a 40 km route randomly and then using it to return to original position and it works extremely well, sometimes it can be off by 50 meters or so. 

 

But I don't know how accurate the map is in the map box. As if it is like the NATO navmap in A-10C, F/A-18C etc. Then it is extremely inaccurate compared to "real DCS map". So your roads, rivers etc are totally off on map compared where they are in 3D world. 

So when you are flying utilizing it, you might get it totally wrong.

 

Need to try same as with Mi-8 that sync it specific position, fly the route randomly and return and check how much it has drifted. 

2 minutes ago, sublime said:

The only thing I can do for sure is move the map to adjust it because I see obvious landmarks.

 

But that is the beautiful thing in it... You can so easily sync it with landmarks, if just the map itself is correct with the 3D world. The paper map in the box seems to be so inaccurate and out of scale that it can never be in proper match with the 3D world because the 3D world doesn't match the paper map that is scanned. 

[sublime]

O that didn't even occur to me Fri.  Wow another whole layer to it

I will say a couple times it was off not just even on the map but it was moving literally opposite of how I was.

E.g. I'd fly SE it'd move West North west..

[Scofflaw]

Okay, I did some troubleshooting.  The left switch has to be up for the map to function.  I think one thing that's throwing me off is the green light on the map - I thought it meant "on", but I'm 50% certain I saw it illuminated once when the switch was in the down position.  You can see in Wags' videos that it's sometimes on, and sometimes off.

 

You can see it turn on here:

 

 

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, sublime said:

O that didn't even occur to me Fri.  Wow another whole layer to it

 

I just tested that hypothesis and seems to be so. I did fly to specific point on a map that was recognizable on map and on 3D world. Then I went flying a 50 km random route zig-zag etc. 

And then I did fly back to location. I likely was off by a 200-500 meters or something, as I didn't anymore remember that as the map symbol in specific spot or not :-D

Anyways it either was spot on, or it was that few hundred meters off (in the small scale map 1 mm is 200 meters IIRC, so you anyways are just as accurate as you then finalize your position / navigation by looking terrain instead the map. The map is just there to give the situational awareness where you generally are.

 

2 hours ago, sublime said:

I will say a couple times it was off not just even on the map but it was moving literally opposite of how I was.

E.g. I'd fly SE it'd move West North west..

 

That got either be a bug, or then there is somekind setting that confuses the system. 

 

1 hour ago, Scofflaw said:

Okay, I did some troubleshooting.  The left switch has to be up for the map to function.  I think one thing that's throwing me off is the green light on the map - I thought it meant "on", but I'm 50% certain I saw it illuminated once when the switch was in the down position.  You can see in Wags' videos that it's sometimes on, and sometimes off.

 

Could it be linked somehow to doppler system memory mode? As that light turns On again when Wags turn on level flight after rolled turn? Similar thing is with the Mi-8 that you have about 20-30 degree rolling capability when doppler system can measure speed and attitude, and higher turn and it gets to memory mode?

[Scofflaw]

2 hours ago, sublime said:

O that didn't even occur to me Fri.  Wow another whole layer to it

I will say a couple times it was off not just even on the map but it was moving literally opposite of how I was.

E.g. I'd fly SE it'd move West North west..

 

I did some more testing - if the the "Airspd Snsr to Doppler" switch is enabled, your aircraft go in the opposite/wrong direction on the map.  This was with both a cold and hot start.

[sublime]

2 minutes ago, Scofflaw said:

 

I did some more testing - if the the "Airspd Snsr to Doppler" switch is enabled, your aircraft go in the opposite/wrong direction on the map.  This was with both a cold and hot start.

Good find!!  I had a strong suspicion that switch did affect the map.  I wonder why it does that.

Also what is the argument for having it on or off again?   It doesn't seem to affect the asp sight?

@Fri13 I guess thats why my map had the issue. Do you know what the switch does?

[Fri13]

On 6/13/2021 at 10:17 AM, Blackeye said:

 

Those existed all over the world back then though - even some civilian aircraft had them, e.g. Hawker Siddeley Trident:

 

 

 

 

While the moving map with a paper map is known thing at the era, those implementations differ.

Example in that picture you can see that the position is shown with a physical pointer that can only move left/right, and is always positioned to center. 

And then the vertical position is changed by winding the paper map on the rolls. 

 

In a some manner you could have the map with very long strip as route, and you would not need to care much "there and back" as it could show it right.

But IMHO the Mi-24 used design is better, as you swap the board in the box and the strip moves around (vertically and horizontally) and you have stationary map all the time in the box.

 

For some reason I like more of these physical paper map boxes than digital ones. I am just little annoyed that what map is used in Mi-24, and how the waypoints gets all mushed together if you have them close by. Basically rendering them unusable for simple "there and back" as training ground map. But they are good at those long routes when you can see each leg markings nicely.