Get the JF-17 or give the F-16 more time?

[Mr.Scar]

Hey,

 

This will probably be a long post, so please bare with me.

 

I. As a small introduction, I am a helo pilot in DCS. Flying the Huey, Ka-50, had also some fun with the Mi-8 and of course waiting for the Mi-24P and Apache. However I am thinking of changing things a little, try something fresh, and I want to try to get, learn and spend some more time on my first multirole jet, with a similar amount (or more?) of dedication as I do to fly helicopters. Yeah, Im a big rotorhead because it was the helos that got me hooked, and I would like that it would "click" in a similar way for my first multi-role fighter. Because I love ground pounding, but I am also thinking about getting into A2A. As a side note, I also want you to know, that before I wrote this post, I finished the F-15C, Mig-29S and started the Su-27 default campaigns. The reason for that the FC3 aircraft honed my skills a little if it comes to radar, SA and weapons management. It was simply a good training ground in preparation for the clickable-cockpit aircraft, when I felt its the time to try something more advanced.

 

The jets in scope are the F-16 which I already own, and the JF-17 that I do not own. For your information, why those two in particular is that I also own the Mirage, Harrier, A-10C II Tank Killer, F-14, Viggen and the F-18 Hornet. I am mostly a ground-pounder, and I had the most fun with the Harrier and Warthog in the past, before i switched to flying helicopters for like 90% of the time. To explain why other aircraft are kind out of scope for me is that:

 

1. F-14 and F-18, im not into Navy Ops. I like to take the Tomcat for a joyride sometimes, but that's it. The Hornet does not appeal to me the way how it feels, how it drives. I know it is a long legged plane that can-do-it-all and is a very well developed module, but it simply does not "click" with me.  And believe me, I have tried to like it several times. It does not work. Sorry Navy, you can keep your boats and tailhooks.

 

2. Warthog and Harrier. Spent quite a bit of time on those two and love them, also believe it or not and it might sound funny, but they were the reason i picked up helicopters. And I am not saying this in a negative way, they simply made me realize what I like doing the most. 

 

3. Mirage - Tried it, liked it, but did not get hooked by it. But that was a long time ago and it still does not appeal to me.

 

4. Viggen - I like it very much, the aspect of burning a trail in the grass with the afterburne, popping up and unleashing hell on targets were fun but in the end, the Viggen is too much of a overspecialized machine for me that requires a lot of meticolous planning. So a no go for me.

 

II. Because of the reasons above, it boiled down to the Viper and potentially the JF-17 Thunder. So below, a bit of what kind of experience/knowledge I have about both aircraft:

 

JF-17 Thunder

 

I do not own it, but watched YT videos about it, read about its history, went through Chucks Guide a bit (and I was amazed about the weapons having around 120 pages...) and truth is I have started to like it very much, although I have never before heard about it and just knew it existed in DCS now.  Second thing, even the glass cockpit started to appeal to me in a very positive way. And I think the most important thing, the Jeff was basically a completed module on Day 1, which is something unbelievable. It also made me tune into Deka Ironworks news, where I have heard about the possibility that a Su-30MKK/MKI or a HMD for the Jeff might be a thing. To be honest with you, it gave me the goosebumps. 

 

Now, that you know it, a few questions/remarks from my side about the JF-17 that made me wonder if I should pick up this aircraft. Those questions are more about the practical usage, and the way how the aircraft feels to the pilot than dry numbers and systems

 

1. I love small aircraft, and I know that the pylon layout is quite small, but the ordnance that the Jeff can carry is huge. I do not mind having to think about what to take on a mission, but wanted to ask is it still doable to do a bit of self-escort? Of course depending on the scenario. So here is where the fuel thing comes into the topic.

 

2. I know the fuel capacity (even with 3 bags) is almost 10.000lbs (correct me if i am wrong) + you get a probe for A2A refueling. However, I wanted to ask, how is the fuel management for longer flights? Lower overall tank capacity does not necessarily mean that the Jeff eats through fuel like the MIG-29 does. Is this true? It would mean that the Jeff is quite fuel efficient and can have quite long legs, despite being able to carry less internal fuel than other multi-role aircraft. Is the A2A refuel a pain?

 

3. What is your general in-cockpit feeling of the JF-17? By that I mean:

- How are the controls? (I use a Thrustmaster FCS 16000m HOTAS) is the Jeff responsive, handles well? ( i heard it has only vertical FBW, but no horizontal one)

- Are the HOTAS functions similar or easier/better organized than the F-16 Viper ones?

- How does the canopy affect the view and influence the situational awareness in comparison to the bubble canopy of the Viper? My feeling is that the bubble canopy of the Viper is the better one, but the JF-17 glass cockpit displays make them much more visible than those in the Viper. Is my guess here correct?

 

4. How is the raw engine power of the JF-17? No slouch? Has a "kick" like the Viper does? Is the throttle lagging in a similar way as the Hornet does?

 

5. The JF-17 feels a bit like a DCS underdog. Its on no fancy posters but is starts to build a name for itself. And I gotta say i like to be an underdog, which the JF-17 seems to offer in a world where Western hardware simply seems to be everywhere... Sometimes I am a little tired of it and caught myself eying more and more the eastern toys.

 

6. How are the availalble SP campaigns? I ask since I mostly fly single player and like to have scenarios where i use what I have learned.

 

7. Any other things you thing are worth mentioning?

 

F-16 Viper

 

I will try to keep this one shorter, since I own the module and have... tried it out you can say. 

 

1. My country flies those, so I am kind of slightly biased. It clicks with me, but I am not that much satisfied with the current development stage. However you might be able to change my mind and try it afterall.

 

2. I love the feeling of raw power in this thing, the engine can really kick and the way the Viper recovers energy is astounding. Is it something that will remain, or something that needs tweaking? (I take here into account that the F-16 is far from being fully complete)

 

3. I heard the G-Force modeling is a bit pale and is something that hinders the F-16 full potential, because right now it seems that the "pilot" inside the Viper has no resilience. As if he did not undergo training for the F-16. Is this true?

 

4. I have a feeling that the MFD are less readable than those in the JF-17. Is it true that the glass cockpit is easier to navigate that the one of the Viper?

 

5. Have not flown the Viper to much, so I have to ask, how is the fuel managment/consumption in comparison to the JF-17? I know the Viper can carry more fuel, but when fuel consumption rate is a factor, then lower fuel quantity does not have to be a hinderance. 

 

6. Any other things worth mentioning to convince me?

 

Summary 

 

Thanks for sticking so far with me and reading what I wrote. So now that you know what kind of experience/knowledge I have and what my general preference is, it boils down to the question of this topic.

 

Should I get the JF-17 or stick to the helicopters and give the F-16 more time? I have read in the last news letter I think, that the Hornet is nearing completion and the focus will shift to the Viper. Bugfixing and new additions. But it will still take time and it might be a wise idea to wait. 

 

Many thanks for reading once again, and thank you in advance for the feedback.

 

Fly safe

Edited June 14, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Oozler]

You already have several airframes. You already have the F16. I am not sure what exactly you are asking. Buy the JF17 and have both and play both as you see fit. Since you already own one of the two modules in question the answer seems simple - buy the JF17  With the free thing going on download the JF for 2 weeks, fly it and get some experience on it. That will help you make up your mind I have no doubt. Fly on!

[Mr.Scar]

5 minutes ago, Oozler said:

You already have several airframes. You already have the F16. I am not sure what exactly you are asking. Buy the JF17 and have both and play both as you see fit. Since you already own one of the two modules in question the answer seems simple - buy the JF17  With the free thing going on download the JF for 2 weeks, fly it and get some experience on it. That will help you make up your mind I have no doubt. Fly on!

 

You got point there, but honestly I promised myself to research some things first and then decide if I should buy it. Im on a budget this time, so will have to wait for a sale probably. Hm, about the free flight for two weeks, i did not know it applied to the Jeff too. So might also be a good option to try it out, however I hope i will have time to do it until the free flight ends. 

 

But thank you for the feedback

[Danny_P]

The free to fly system isn't time limited, you go to: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/personal/licensing/trial/ < you need to be using DCS standalone rather than steam for this.

 

Then you can trial any module for two weeks, then six months after your trial ended, you can trial it again.

[Mr.Scar]

1 hour ago, Danny_P said:

The free to fly system isn't time limited, you go to: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/personal/licensing/trial/ < you need to be using DCS standalone rather than steam for this.

 

Then you can trial any module for two weeks, then six months after your trial ended, you can trial it again.

 

I will try it out once i get home from work. Thanks

[Doc3908]

Without getting into details, I will just comment that I have both the F-16 and the JF-17, and I tend to fly the Jeff a lot more. Both are similar in many ways and each has its unique quirks, advantages and disadvantages. Fuel-wise, I find that the F-16 empties its fuel tanks a bit faster than the JF-17. I also like the SD-10s on the Jeff better than the AIM120Cs, but ED keeps tweaking the missile behaviors all the time, so it's hard to say say which one is "better". The F-16 can carry more missiles for A2A engagements. I can't comment on the A2G stuff - personally, I'm only interested in A2A. But I think the F-16 has a greater variety of A2G munitions than the Jf-17. 

 

I agree with the others, though - download the JF-17, fly it and see if you like it. 

[Mr.Scar]

I have tried it out, just the training lessons a took a quick flight. Got to say its something different but in a good way. Hard to tell how it fits yet, but I am sure the glass cockpit is a really nice thing to have.  I will do more flying around, then I will check out the Viper and make my decision, but truthfully i will probably get it when the next sale hits.

 

Thanks again for the replies!

[Mike_Romeo]

11 hours ago, Doc3908 said:

But I think the F-16 has a greater variety of A2G munitions than the Jf-17.

It doesnt, The Jeff has JSOW, JSOW with inteligent bomlets, something similiar (but better) APWKS, anti ship missiles, and MITL missiles which the Viper currently doesnt have.

[Mike_Romeo]

17 hours ago, Oozler said:

You already have several airframes. You already have the F16. I am not sure what exactly you are asking. Buy the JF17 and have both and play both as you see fit. Since you already own one of the two modules in question the answer seems simple - buy the JF17  With the free thing going on download the JF for 2 weeks, fly it and get some experience on it. That will help you make up your mind I have no doubt. Fly on!

1. It can selfdefense itself but not very good with 2 SD-10's + 2 PL-5 + ground weapons. You better dont wast the missiles.
2. Fuel is never realy a problem for me. As long you dont fly the whole time with afterburner, you are fine. It doesnt have the most fuel efficient engine but its enough. A2A refueling in the Jeff is very painfull since the engines have a very big respons time.
3. I use a T.16000 myself and if you use modifiers, its more than enough. There is only vertical FBW yes but it flies like on rails. The visebility is not as good like in the viper but I nerver real had problems with it.
4. The engine is a little weak relativ speaking. With a full a2a load, you cant realy hit mach 1 beside in a dive. But with a "light load", mach 1,3 is doable.
5. Dont underestimate the JF-17. Its ones of the best WVR and BVR fighter in DCS. It outturn every fighter in the rate fight (beside the F-14 with flaps) and its 24° aoa give it the capability for deadly snap shots.
6. There is only one official campaing for it which is okay, not finish but developers are still adding missions. There are some very good community campaigns out there.
7. The JF-17 is one of the best fighters in DCS but after a while I got bored by it. Its like the FC-3 planes or the Su-25T with extra steps. I am dissapointed by how easy she is.

Cant say very much about the F-16 because I dont own it.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mike_Romeo

[Mr.Scar]

1 hour ago, Mike_Romeo said:

1. It can selfdefense itself but not very good with 2 SD-10's + 2 PL-5 + ground weapons. You better dont wast the missiles.
2. Fuel is never realy a problem for me. As long you dont fly the whole time with afterburner, you are fine. It doesnt have the most fuel efficient engine but its enough. A2A refueling in the Jeff is very painfull since the engines have a very big respons time.
3. I use a T.16000 myself and if you use modifiers, its more than enough. There is only vertical FBW yes but it flies like on rails. The visebility is not as good like in the viper but I nerver real had problems with it.
4. The engine is a little weak relativ speaking. With a full a2a load, you cant realy hit mach 1 beside in a dive. But with a "light load", mach 1,3 is doable.
5. Dont underestimate the JF-17. Its ones of the best WVR and BVR fighter in DCS. It outturn every fighter in the rate fight (beside the F-14 with flaps) and its 24° aoa give it the capability for deadly snap shots.
6. There is only one official campaing for it which is okay, not finish but developers are still adding missions. There are some very good community campaigns out there.
7. The JF-17 is one of the best fighters in DCS but after a while I got bored by it. Its like the FC-3 planes or the Su-25T with extra steps. I am dissapointed by how easy she is.

Cant say very much about the F-16 because I dont own it.

 

 

Thank you very much. I am trying the JF-17 on the free period right now, but those were the answers I was looking for. I wanted a more hands on feedback from someone that was actually flying it for a longer period of time. I was only doing it like for 1h yesterday. 

 

As for the boring part about the JF-17, well that is also something I am a bit afraid of. But funny fact is that I did no get bored with the Mig-29 although she is a FC3 aircraft. I am not sure what it is, but its the way she handles i think. I also come from helos, where the Huey was my workhorse for a long time and flying helicopters is a completely diffrent cup of tea that literally forces you to focus on flying and not on system management. Even the KA-50 with all fancy flight assist systems does not make NOE flying less interactive. 

 

Anyway, coming back to the topic. I will continue flying the JF-17 during the free period and will see how i like it. So far my impressions are similar, she is very comfortable to fly. I will wait for a sale anyway, before thinking about purchasing. Maybe the Viper will get updates/bugfixes until the Jeff is on sale. Who knows? 

[Dragon1-1]

Also note, Jeff sales are a bit meh. There should be a sale at the end of the month, coinciding with the Steam Summer Sale. However, it will probably not be much more than 15-20% off. The Viper, being early access, also doesn't get sales beyond 30% (save for a single instance of 50% off during the pandemic sale, which is where I got it). 

[Wizard_03]

If you want lots of fancy A2G stuff and prefer a very modern UI get the Jeff. If you want performance the viper is the way too go. Its pretty much better in every aspect WIP status aside. Just not quite as Gucci, Limited A2G stuff, not intuitive avionics, gameboy sized MFDs ect. However its still better at everything, hands down.

 

 

[Mr.Scar]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also note, Jeff sales are a bit meh. There should be a sale at the end of the month, coinciding with the Steam Summer Sale. However, it will probably not be much more than 15-20% off. The Viper, being early access, also doesn't get sales beyond 30% (save for a single instance of 50% off during the pandemic sale, which is where I got it). 

 

6 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

If you want lots of fancy A2G stuff and prefer a very modern UI get the Jeff. If you want performance the viper is the way too go. Its pretty much better in every aspect WIP status aside. Just not quite as Gucci, Limited A2G stuff, not intuitive avionics, gameboy sized MFDs ect. However its still better at everything, hands down.

 

 

 

 

On 6/15/2021 at 7:40 AM, Mike_Romeo said:

3. I use a T.16000 myself and if you use modifiers, its more than enough. There is only vertical FBW yes but it flies like on rails. The visebility is not as good like in the viper but I nerver real had problems with it.

 

Well, yesterday I flew the tutorial missions with the JF-17, then took it on a fast mission with some dogfighting included. I repeated the same for the F-16, to get a comparison on how they "feel" 

 

JF-17

 

Now I know what was meant by "flies like on rails". It feels good, handles well, and most probably also my dogfighting skills are crap, however when doing it I kinda felt a bit restricted. Of course it would require practice and there are things I do wrong, but by saying this I mean that I do not "feel" the machine in a natural way. Like mentioned, I felt restricted. I did not have that type of feeling even when flying the Hornet, that is very much designed to prevent the pilot from doing stupid things. 

The glass cockpit is great and offers a lot of SA and visibility for BVR or A2G. Also the IFF and RWR are fantastic.

 

F-16

 

I felt much more freedom when flying the Viper in a dogfight. She did exactly what I wanted and reacted the way I expected she would react. Dogfighting feels much more natural in it, although my energy managment skills got very rusty (was flying the F-15C a long time ago). The MFDs although much smaller are honestly not that big of an issue, you need to focus on them anyway when doing long range engagments, be it for ground or BVR. IFF and RWR are not as good as the JF-17, but they do the job and thats more than enough.

Also the HMD, bubble canopy and general visibility is something much more comfortable for me. The throttle response is something I also like very much.

I think I can also say that the fuel consumption in a dogfight feels quite similar on both aircraft. 

 

 

All in all, i will think about buying the JF-17 eventually when it is on sale. But after flying and getting a feeling of both during those short few hours, i simply have the impression that the Viper fits me more, even in its current state. 

[cfrag]

I may be coming from a bit left-field here, but please hear me out

 

I come from the *other* side: Hog and F-18 (mainly) were almost the cause for a divorce. I then discovered the Huey, and the missus starts to look funny at me again. BUT, there's another plane I did not mention that may appeal to you if you - like me - are a fan of the Huey's down-to-earth feel (I do not like the Shark, as it feels too gimmicky for me - and that's even though I like the Bug). Anyway: my recommendation - and to make your predicament even worse - is to look at the F5 tiger. It's got a clean cockpit, handles incredibly well, and feels incredibly hands-on, both in flying and weapons delivery. 

 

Note: I also own the Jeff (and Viper), and I like it more than the F16, even though it in may ways feels like a 2012 Japanese Car (voices, sounds, aestetics). Although I was a huge fan of a previous Viper sim that went all the way to a glorious version 4, I never really clicked with it in DCS.

 

To quote Shinoda, though: "in the end, it doesn't really matter". Like me, you'll get every module. I did enjoy agonizing over the order in which to get them, though  

 

[Mr.Scar]

20 hours ago, cfrag said:

I may be coming from a bit left-field here, but please hear me out

 

I come from the *other* side: Hog and F-18 (mainly) were almost the cause for a divorce. I then discovered the Huey, and the missus starts to look funny at me again. BUT, there's another plane I did not mention that may appeal to you if you - like me - are a fan of the Huey's down-to-earth feel (I do not like the Shark, as it feels too gimmicky for me - and that's even though I like the Bug). Anyway: my recommendation - and to make your predicament even worse - is to look at the F5 tiger. It's got a clean cockpit, handles incredibly well, and feels incredibly hands-on, both in flying and weapons delivery. 

 

Note: I also own the Jeff (and Viper), and I like it more than the F16, even though it in may ways feels like a 2012 Japanese Car (voices, sounds, aestetics). Although I was a huge fan of a previous Viper sim that went all the way to a glorious version 4, I never really clicked with it in DCS.

 

To quote Shinoda, though: "in the end, it doesn't really matter". Like me, you'll get every module. I did enjoy agonizing over the order in which to get them, though  

 

 

Hehe, thanks for the reply. 

 

I fully agree with you. About helis, I prefer the Huey much more over the KA-50. But in general, I am mostly a helo pilot, so all helicopters are a go for me. As for the F-5, i totally agree. I do not own it, but I do think its very fun to fly even from a spectators perspective. So getting the F-5 is also probably a matter of time for me

 

 As for the F-16 or JF-17. I have flown both the past two days ago more. And although I said that I feel more freedom in the F-16, I think i figured it out how to fly the Jeff. To be honest with you, It "clicks" more with the JF-17 now. Its all the small details that matter, i have a feeling that the fuel consumptions is better on the Jeff, and also i feel that the JF-17 is a bit like if the F-18 and F-16 had a son. The JF-17 seems to be a great rate fighter, but also has great nose authority. I figured that out yesterday, when I experimented with the A/A A/G1 switches etc. 

Behaves totally different when setup for air combat. 

 

I only miss the HMD a bit, but truthfully is not that big of an issue, once I got the hang of pointing the nose at the bandit. Sure, my dogfighting skills are still terrible, but for me it was always about the "how do I feel in the aircraft" and not the "what is more appealing to me" I mean by that, although I like the visuals and on-paper capabilities of the F-16, F-18 or others, when I have tried them out, after few days I got to realize those are not the planes for me, because i do not "feel" them from piloting perspective. The skills will come with stick time. 

 

Now I do feel the JF-17... like I said it has everything that clicks with me. Starting from the small things (start up procedure, DTC, alignment, the fantastic glass cocpkpit, rwr, and handling) right to the big things, like weapons, provided SA, fuel management.

 

I have not flown the Viper in the "we shall-not-name-that-other-F16-flight-sim", but only the DCS one. But from what I have heard, the flight model of the Viper will not change, she will get only bugfixes and additional features. But that is not that important to me, those things will come eventually. Its, like i said, about feeling the aircraft. The JF-17 fits me like a glove.

 

As a side note, I really hope that Deka Ironworks will release the SU-30MKK or MKI. Those guys made an awesome job with the JF-17 and I am still astonished how well the Jeff is done.

 

Anyway, once I can afford it, I am getting the JF-17 Thunder. I start to feel that thin thing was built for me. And also about the Japanese car thing, well... I own a Toyota in real life so...  There might be something in it, why I like the Jeff.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[The Gryphon]

The JF-17 is a super cool airplane and let me explain why you should try it. The machine - human interface in the cockpit is awesome with 3 large LCD screens (they are known to be easy to read in VR), the JF-17 comes with a great air-to ground radar to lock targets and designate them on the fly to the laser pod, the APPR/ILS landing system is very very good, it draws lines for the approach to the runway, you can defeat s-300 with glide bombs without being shot down, you have a dynamic checklist that will show you have to configure the airplane at taxi , takeoff and so on. The list goes on and on. The JF-17 gets lots of hate because it is a  Redfor fighter, and that is just silly. It really is a pilots aircraft with huge amount of entertainment value.

[nighthawk2174]

I agree its a cool jet and the timeframe for the F16 getting finished is probably not this year so I'd just get the jeff for now as its at least essentially complete.  It has all the cool toys such as anti-ship/MITL and a bunch of glide weapons.