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What is the preferred touch and go landing procedure in the F/A-18 Hornet ?


Jidai

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Push forward. 

 

No I'm not being flippant. Almost every aircraft has an issue where trim for final is different to trim for takeoff. You just fly the aircraft and trim out for the climb, If you spent time rolling the trim wheel forward on a GA aircraft before applying power you would run off the end of the runway.

 

At least with the hornet it will trim itself once flaps are up. 🙂

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Yea that's what I've been doing. 😂 I was holding out for a more elegant solution. Thanx!   Flaps from half to auto immediately after achieving a positive rate of climb seems to reset the 12 bars stab angle lessening the need for as much forward stick position at takeoff. 🤓


Edited by Jidai
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Technically you don't clean up on carrier bolter; you simply as above max power and climb away on AoA. Once at 600 you re join the downwind for another pass. IRL they would vector you away from the pattern if it was busy, but i think they time it so an aircraft can bolter and rejoin immediately. It's a lot of workload on the bolter and yes it will pitch up but you deal with it and settle on climb out. Just remember to make your downwind turn at or before 600'.

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You shouldn't have to push forward; the dramatic pitch-up after a touch n go is a previously acknowledged flaw in the DCS Hornet's flight model.

 

I often do touch n gos at the boat where I don't re-configure at all.  Instead of pushing forward, I just modulate power to keep the climb under control.  So mil at touchdown, then a power reduction right after running off the edge of the deck.  I set power for about an 800ft per min climb. 

 

And off topic but responding to an above comment - I'd strongly recommend considering taking the entire one second to reset trim on a GA aircraft before taking off again.  Nothing happens that fast at GA speeds, but intentionally lifting off while mis-trimmed nose-up is setting you up for potentially severe problems.  I'm not saying it *can't* be done obviously... but from a TEM standpoint, is it a great idea?  I've been a flight instructor for over 20 years and have done more touch n gos than I could count in everything from Cubs to airline jets... I promise, you have time to properly set the trim.  😉

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3 hours ago, LTRMcrew said:

Technically you don't clean up on carrier bolter; you simply as above max power and climb away on AoA. Once at 600 you re join the downwind for another pass. IRL they would vector you away from the pattern if it was busy, but i think they time it so an aircraft can bolter and rejoin immediately. It's a lot of workload on the bolter and yes it will pitch up but you deal with it and settle on climb out. Just remember to make your downwind turn at or before 600'.

Just to piggy back you, the bolter pattern is 500' for separation since break ALT is 800. I believe it is a climbing left hand turn to 600 to join the downwind with respect to interval, unless you are alone. 

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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6 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

 

And off topic but responding to an above comment - I'd strongly recommend considering taking the entire one second to reset trim on a GA aircraft before taking off again.  Nothing happens that fast at GA speeds, but intentionally lifting off while mis-trimmed nose-up is setting you up for potentially severe problems.  I'm not saying it *can't* be done obviously... but from a TEM standpoint, is it a great idea?  I've been a flight instructor for over 20 years and have done more touch n gos than I could count in everything from Cubs to airline jets... I promise, you have time to properly set the trim.  😉

 

Good info I will try this. Just need to bind the trim reset button to something I can find easily. Thanx!

 

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17 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

Just to piggy back you, the bolter pattern is 500' for separation since break ALT is 800. I believe it is a climbing left hand turn to 600 to join the downwind with respect to interval, unless you are alone.

That also makes sense as the initial altitude on a Cat shot is also 500'

good tip, thanks!

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2 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

That also makes sense as the initial altitude on a Cat shot is also 500'

good tip, thanks!

On occasion when I was a Deck Caller, I'd take my last shot off of CAT 1 or CAT 4 depending. CAT 4 USUALLY would suspend. That messes things up a lot, especially if you have to break him off and send him to the Bow! I did an entire deployment and CAT 4 was down hard the entire time. But I digress! There are guys in the break and on upwind to land while we are getting the last shot off. Hence the "Launching A/C must be at or below 500' until 7nm upwind". I didn't realize how much I miss this stuff IRL until now! Ha!

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16 hours ago, Jackjack171 said:

On occasion when I was a Deck Caller, I'd take my last shot off of CAT 1 or CAT 4 depending. CAT 4 USUALLY would suspend. That messes things up a lot, especially if you have to break him off and send him to the Bow! I did an entire deployment and CAT 4 was down hard the entire time. But I digress! There are guys in the break and on upwind to land while we are getting the last shot off. Hence the "Launching A/C must be at or below 500' until 7nm upwind". I didn't realize how much I miss this stuff IRL until now! Ha!

 

Ah that's why! I thought it was to stop enemy forces picking you up on radar and ascertaining the carriers location 🤓...which clearly makes no sense as you may have aircraft in the stack circling above.🤪


Edited by McVittees
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4 hours ago, McVittees said:

 

Ah that's why! I thought it was to stop enemy forces picking you up on radar and ascertaining the carriers location 🤓...which clearly makes no sense as you may have aircraft in the stack circling above.🤪

 

Yeah, launch and recovery is like a symphony man! I hope someday that we can get true cyclic ops in DCS! So much potential!

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To help clarify a few things ....

 

The VFR "pattern" is what it is. Regardless if you enter it from a bolter/hook skip, after the break, or from the catapult, the pattern is 600 agl and it is flowen the same. (There is no such thing as a "bolter" pattern or "wave off" pattern ..etc)

 

The nuance being talked about is how to manage your interval for which, you simply do not launch, break, etc if the timing with your interval is not correct. Wait untill you have proper interval, then break/launch. I.e. you won't be launched if an aircraft had boltered and would creat an interval conflict.  Suspended the launch untill the boltered aircraft is at proper interval, then launch. Don't break if doing so will put you on top of an aircraft alread in the pattern. Delay your break untill doing so will put you properly behind your interval. If you run out of distance from the bow of the ship, spin it and return for another break.

 

Don't change the pattern to accommodate a messed up interval. Dont push the trim button in flight, if you need to trim, use the trim hat. Don't reconfigure the aircraft If you intend to stay in the pattern. If the plane pitches excessive nose up, do some of that pilot sh!z and fly to mitigate. You just went from an approach energy state, to a full throttle, full flaps, "bounced off the deck" energy state, the nose is going to pitch up. (More/less pich than IRL is a bit irrelevant at this point, it is within the aircraft performance to control)

 

Hope that helps. 🙂


Edited by Lex Talionis
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16 minutes ago, Lex Talionis said:

To help clarify a few things ....

 

The VFR "pattern" is what it is. Regardless if you enter it from a bolter/hook skip, after the break, or from the catapult, the pattern is 600 agl and it is flowen the same. (There is no such thing as a "bolter" pattern or "wave off" pattern ..etc)

 

The nuance being talked about is how to manage your interval for which, you simply do not launch, break, etc if the timing with your interval is not correct. Wait untill you have proper interval, then break/launch. I.e. you won't be launched if an aircraft had boltered and would creat an interval conflict.  Suspended the launch untill the boltered aircraft is at proper interval, then launch. Don't break if doing so will put you on top of an aircraft alread in the pattern. Delay your break untill doing so will put you properly behind your interval. If you run out of distance from the bow of the ship, spin it and return for another break.

 

Don't change the pattern to accommodate a messed up interval. Dont push the trim button in flight, if you need to trim, use the trim hat. Don't reconfigure the aircraft If you intend to stay in the pattern. If the plane pitches excessive nose up, do some of that pilot sh!z and fly to mitigate. You just went from an approach energy state, to a full throttle, full flaps, "bounced off the deck" energy state, the nose is going to pitch up. (More/less pich than IRL is a bit irrelevant at this point, it is within the aircraft performance to control)

 

Hope that helps. 🙂

 

"Penetrations in actual instrument conditions by formation flights of more than two aircraft are not authorized. Flight leaders shall follow Case III approach procedures outside of 10 nm. When within 10 nm with the ship in sight, flights will be shifted to tower control and proceed as in Case I. If the flight does not have the ship in sight at 10 nm, the flight may descend to not less than 800 feet. If a flight does not have the ship in sight at 5 miles, both aircraft shall be vectored into the bolter/waveoff pattern and action taken to conduct a Case III recovery for the remaining flights." NAVAIR 00-80T-105

Thank you for the clarification. Above is a example from the -105. I'm sure you've seen this as I have but why does NATOPS refer to it as the Bolter/Waveoff Pattern? The above is just one of many instances where this terminology is used. Could it be for descriptive purposes? 
 

DO it or Don't, but don't cry about it. Real men don't cry!

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The natops certainly is not an easy read.

 

 It refers to case 1 "as in case1" as an example but does not say it necessarily reverts to case 1 procedures. If it does revert to case 1, the boat is now VMC and procedures for the other cases are no longer used(i.e. "bolter pattern " no longer used). The premis of that paragraph is that the ship is not VFR, there is no VFR pattern, for which you would not go into the VFR pattern after a bolter but instead be vectored back arround (given their phraseology "be vectored into ... "). The "bolter pattern " is like "missed approach instructions" after an IFR approach, but not necessarily a means to enter the VFR landing pattern.

My apologies, my asumption was that we were talking about case 1/VFR landing pattern given we were talking about "breaking" etc. I should clarify, there is no such thing as a "VFR bolter pattern". And there certainly is no expectation to go into a "bolter pattern"  if the VFR traffic pattern is in use (i.e case1)

Case 2 is basically an IFR let down to a VFR pattern.

The context your paragraph is written in is important. 

 I probably missed the context that we were talking about IMC/IFR/ Case3 (if we were). 

Apologies for the confusion.


Edited by Lex Talionis
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I find that reduced power setting makes wave bolt easier to control. Obviously use plenty when at risk but reduced power aids control. You pop up to 600 in a big hurry even at moderate power.

 

I wouldn't press any reset button. I even think setting a confortable trim on touch an go is negative training. TnG isn't practice for TnG, it's preparation for uncalm situations. You want to be practiced for uncalm situations like obstructed runway or incidental contact from a rejected approach or other situations where there isn't time to do anything but control the airplane as it is. An airplane trimmed for approach should be well controllable during a rejected landing without trim change until safely clear.

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My trim comments were in response to someone suggesting that the trim isn't reset in civilian aircraft for a touch n go; I (perhaps incorrectly) understood these comments to be referring to real life.  In general, Touch n Gos are just takeoff and landing practice, thus it makes sense that you want to be properly trimmed for takeoff before initiating the takeoff phase.  Obviously carrier ops are going to be different, and in a desktop sim we can do anything we like (which is part of the fun); my point was only that we probably shouldn't be encouraging touch n gos from a mis-trimmed state in real-world training aircraft. 


Edited by Stearmandriver
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Actually yes I was refering to real life civilian aircraft.

 

As I was tought 25 years ago, most GA (at least back then) had a massive trim wheel that effectively needed you to look at the floor for about 4 seconds while rolling down the runway to set for t/o. The technique that was tought was to anticipate the out of trim (it wasn't ever that much if you were trimmed propoerly for approach) and trim out upwind when you can trim by feel and not need to look down at an indicator needle.

 

It has been a long time since I flew censsnas though so maybe modern ones are better designed. If not, that would probably explain the scary wandering on the runway I regularly see from the tower.

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If I can help you in any way...("How do I avoid the dramatic pitching up after rotating ?") After leaving the deck you dont need more keep the throttle all forward. Pull back and try keep you velocity near to 135kt. Keep your flaps full and gear down. Dont need push trim reset buttom too  🙂

Seeya  💪🍻

 

 


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I don't think anything in a Cessna qualifies as "massive".  😉

 

It usually takes at most a few flicks of the trim wheel to reset takeoff trim in a Cessna.  If a pilot can't take a quick glance or two down at a trim indicator without losing directional control... they aren't yet ready for touch n gos.  Full stop and taxi-backs while solo are required until they reach an experience level that makes touch n gos practical.  While dual, touch n gos are great for efficiency as the instructor can set the trim.  Nothing happens very fast in a GA aircraft; there's plenty of time for this.

 

Now in more demanding taildraggers, at some point the stop-n-go becomes preferred because even at taxi speeds, a directional excursion can develop in an instant and the instructor may not be comfortable enough with a student's performance to look down for even that long. 

 

Regardless, normalizing and even teaching intentional takeoffs in a mis-trimmed state is just a bad idea, in a real airplane.  High AoA loss-of-control accidents are one of the highest areas of emphasis in civilian aviation right now, because many years of continued simplification of training requirements have created a load of pilots who aren't comfortable in this regime and fail to recognize the developing situation.  An intentional takeoff in a nose-high mis-trimmed state just sets them up to encounter such a situation in the worst possible phase of flight. 

 

A lot of things were taught years ago that modern human-factors knowledge informs us better on.  Recognizing such items is the first step towards fixing them, and that's good for everyone! 

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..and yet ICAO states runway safety events occur more than 4 times the rate of loss of control in flight events. And when they do occur are far more likely to result in hull loss......

 

Lets get back onto topic shall we?


Edited by Ourorborus
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In fact to get us back on topic I will edit my post...

 

Push forward. 

 

No I'm not being flippant. Almost every aircraft has an issue where trim for final is different to trim for takeoff. You have to allow for this in go rounds and, depending on the technique you were tought,  during touch and goes. One school of thought is to priotise runway safety and trim upwind when you can do it by feel, like you do in a go round, another is to priortise upwind standardisation by trimming on the ground. 🙂

 

At least with the hornet it will trim itself once flaps are up.

 

As for the Hornet, (and I am happy to be corrected by those here that flew them for real) I believe they subscribe to the former school of thought. In a touch and go they barely strike the ground. In fact it looks more like "low go round".

 

an example... F/A-18 Hornets • Touch & Go Training - YouTube


Edited by Ourorborus
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