Feedback Thread - F14 Tomcat Patch 16-06-2021

[draconus]

@Whiskey11 For radar search command RWS mode. Use TWS-A for -54 attack on the known confirmed targets. Don't fly into the bandits without SA after losing radar contact.

[That's of course beside the current aspect switch "bug".]

Edited June 21, 2021 by draconus

[flavnet]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:22 PM, REDEYE_CVW-66 said:

Something seems up with the AIM54 again. Still early testing- but in the last build I was able to time after time defeat 2 bandits with TWS shots at 30+ NM. That is when it was introduced that AI won't defend until missile goes active. I was able to achieve this 20+ times against 2xFlanker or Mig-29S combos, ACE and armed to the teetth. The few missions I did tonight had very different results. The AIM54's were easily defeated (the locked as they should) by some chaff and the AI did not even bother to defend. The missiles fly by harmlessly while the AI peppers me with R-27s. Even against a single Flanker with 2x STT shots I was only able to finally defeat him with guns.

 

Like I said, just a couple of prelim tests, to little hard data yet, and I am certainly no F-14 ace, just reporting VERY different behaviors and results.

The same goes for me. Not only does the Phoenix seem to have a reduced effectiveness, but Jester also seems more stupid. I created four simple front engagement missions with the Editor between my F-14 and, in order: first mission, two Mig-23, second mission, two Mig-29, third mission, two Su-27, fourth mission , two Tu-22s. AI is always "veteran". I'm not an ace either and the missions always provided a distance between me and the AI enemies of about 150-200 nm with my F-14 armed with 4 AIM-54C, 2 AIM-7MH, 2 AIM-9M, starting altitude 30,000 feet.
Before the upgrade, the result was pretty obvious: except for some mistakes of mine, the 4 Phoenixes were enough to destroy both enemies. Now it is really different! First of all, the Mig-23 and the Mig-29 (which fly at about the same altitude as me) cannot be locked by Jester (only tracked at about 100 nm) except when they are at about 40-30 nm (making the AIM-54 useless!), But what is surprising it's the Su-27s that evade the AIM-54s with embarrassing ease!!!
In short, the F-14 is no longer the king of the hill.
By way of rematch, I wanted to perform the same missions with an F-18 armed with AMRAAMs. Victory has always been very easy. So maybe the Tomcat is simulated better now than before which would explain its replacement in the Navy with the F-18 relegating it to the role of bomber (even if very well done).

[REDEYE_CVW-66]

Could it be related to this?

 

From a squadmate:

"To all Cat drivers: As you might have already noticed, the awg-9 sometimes fails to pick up targets dead ahead of you since the last patch . This is due to the TARGET ASPECT switch in the RIO pit now affecting PD search modes. This switch sets a closure gate, anything outside that gate will be filtered out. By default, the switch is in BEAM. In this mode, any contacts with a closure rate above 1200kts will be filtered out. This limit is easily exceeded in head on engagements against fast targets. In such situations, the switch must be set to NOSE. There is no Jester command for doing that (yet), but I believe you can edit the input config to include the command to the pilot's list of commands and than bind keys to that."

Edited June 21, 2021 by REDEYE_CVW-66

[Whiskey11]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:40 PM, ShinyMikey said:

Jester is mostly just a control interface so that you can run the radar from the front seat, don't expect him to do many things for you except for IFF and callouts. If the MIG-23's tracks dropped, they might have turned and notched the radar or perhaps they went down to the deck. You can tell jester to look at a certain range and altitude (like 40mi at 5000ft if you think they have moved down to the deck). In this situation you might want to change your own aspect to slow down the closure and start searching at different altitudes while intermittently returning the radar to auto elevation and azimuth.   

 

In this case, I attempted to do all of those things right until the merge.  He never found them.  They most certainly didn't change aspect or change closure rate because the Through the Inferno PVE servers all have EWRS reports which provide updates on enemy aircraft locations about every 10-15 seconds or so.  There was about 4 of them in the time it took to close the distance and I would change Jester's scan area each time.

I get what Jester is intended to do... there are certain things I wouldn't expect him to do, but a little basic AI functionality to make the gap between a human RIO, even if they are completely trash, and Jester's current status, would be nice.  I shouldn't have to babysit the radar from the front seat during an intercept.  The whole reason to have a RIO in the real jet was the radar system was too complicated for one person to operate successfully while flying the aircraft.  Jester should be able to do that stuff without prompt as part of his decision tree.  I'm not asking him to pick out a contact against ground clutter in pulse mode and maintain that lock, just prioritize finding two contacts which faded out but were clearly still out there and well within the scan volume.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Whiskey11

[Slice313]

Crashing when respawning the Tomcat in multiplayer must be the most annoying thing ATM. Can we hope for some stability in the near future?

[Indianajon]

Now that I have gotten used to the burble and am remembering to add wind in my missions I'm loving it! You have done a great job as always.

I don't know if this is an ED issue or yours but the ACLS symbology is out for the glide slope on case 3s. The pilot calls up and on when everything is centred. Likewise I have noticed that IF you set it to full autopilot ACLS recovery it will now bolter everytime (mainly I have been trying to see the new hook physics from the outside). 

[Indianajon]

On 6/17/2021 at 11:31 AM, Lurker said:

What is the performance like in the F14 now, did all of these changes come at the expense of some performance? (Honest question, not trying to troll or anything, my Tomcat is parked for now as I'm in the process of learning the Hind so I couldn't do any F14 tests)

 

Seems like a lot of was added (which is great, not complaining) just wondering what the relative cost is going to be with regards to how it performs in the sim? The Hind seems to be very demanding FPS wise. 

 

This question is mostly aimed at all the VR people out there, who tend to notice these things a lot more. 

Hi Lurker. I'm using VR and have noticed no drop in frame rate. Still as smooth as previous. You should really join the fun!

[Damian-J]

On 6/23/2021 at 7:20 AM, Indianajon said:

Now that I have gotten used to the burble and am remembering to add wind in my missions I'm loving it! You have done a great job as always.

I don't know if this is an ED issue or yours but the ACLS symbology is out for the glide slope on case 3s. The pilot calls up and on when everything is centered. Likewise I have noticed that IF you set it to full autopilot ACLS recovery it will now bolter everytime (mainly I have been trying to see the new hook physics from the outside). 

I've had the ACLS drive me straight into the beck of the ship several times. It doesn't handle the new burble effects at all lol

[Lurker]

On 6/21/2021 at 7:39 PM, REDEYE_CVW-66 said:

Could it be related to this?

 

From a squadmate:

"To all Cat drivers: As you might have already noticed, the awg-9 sometimes fails to pick up targets dead ahead of you since the last patch . This is due to the TARGET ASPECT switch in the RIO pit now affecting PD search modes. This switch sets a closure gate, anything outside that gate will be filtered out. By default, the switch is in BEAM. In this mode, any contacts with a closure rate above 1200kts will be filtered out. This limit is easily exceeded in head on engagements against fast targets. In such situations, the switch must be set to NOSE. There is no Jester command for doing that (yet), but I believe you can edit the input config to include the command to the pilot's list of commands and than bind keys to that."

 

 

This is a thing??? Why would Jester not be able to tell whether a target is beaming or is coming in hot, and set these switches? I assume that this is not intended behavior?

[draconus]

On 6/24/2021 at 1:22 PM, Lurker said:

 

This is a thing??? Why would Jester not be able to tell whether a target is beaming or is coming in hot, and set these switches? I assume that this is not intended behavior?

Omission. The switch function got implemented but Jester didn't get the memo

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by draconus

[Rinz1er]

The switch was already there in the RIO seat. They mentioned that they would add it to the Jester menu. Which as far as I can tell, did not come in the hotfix.

[KL0083]

On 6/21/2021 at 8:49 PM, flavnet said:

By way of rematch, I wanted to perform the same missions with an F-18 armed with AMRAAMs. Victory has always been very easy. So maybe the Tomcat is simulated better now than before which would explain its replacement in the Navy with the F-18 relegating it to the role of bomber (even if very well done).

No,to blame on the current difficulty of Tomcat are,as much as of blame on the "obsolescence" of a 2020 built F-15QA with something like this.............

The effective was never the same between Mach2 modern jet and sub-sonic 1950' vintage with even the same radar and missile armed with both aircraft!

Edited June 28, 2021 by KL0083

[Dauntless 7]

Not sure if it was this Heat Blur Tomcat patch or the update to DCs version 2.7.whatever or installing the Super Carrier module, because I did them all within a few days of each other. But I am finding it VERY difficult to achieve On Speed AoA during landing now. Was challenging before but now it feels next to impossible without stalling the aircraft. Not sure if it was one of these updates / installs or if it is just me. Anyone else having the same trouble?

[Skysurfer]

8 minutes ago, Dauntless 7 said:

Not sure if it was this Heat Blur Tomcat patch or the update to DCs version 2.7.whatever or installing the Super Carrier module, because I did them all within a few days of each other. But I am finding it VERY difficult to achieve On Speed AoA during landing now. Was challenging before but now it feels next to impossible without stalling the aircraft. Not sure if it was one of these updates / installs or if it is just me. Anyone else having the same trouble?

 

The flight model did change with the 2.7 update (with some new issues too) but I still find it easy to fly on speed tbh. Just remember that any power change and DLC input will now influence the nose and thus AOA.

[Dauntless 7]

32 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

The flight model did change with the 2.7 update (with some new issues too) but I still find it easy to fly on speed tbh. Just remember that any power change and DLC input will now influence the nose and thus AOA.

"On speed" should mean "on AoA". But what I am finding is that to get to On AoA the jet has to be right at a stall at 120knots indicated, then I hit the wake turbulence that is now way more than it was before, and the jet falls like a rock, requiring full power to avoid hitting the back of the ship, which mean going around. 

 

At any speed above 120-130 knot I no longer am able to get the jet at the correct AoA. Even coming in at 140-150 indicated the jet falls almost too fast to save it when hitting the wake turbulence. But at that speed I cannot get the AoA indexer orange ball or the E down with the wings on the HUD. 

 

Forgot to mention all of this has been within the Instant Action CASE 1 landing missions. Maybe it is an issue with the mission parameters, like wind or carrier speed or both. But would not think so, since they all have wind of 10-20 knots and ship speed of 10-20 knots. 

 

Going to keep trying though. Eventually I will find the groove or break something trying.

 

[Skysurfer]

Try and set up your own CV mission with controlled parameters and see how that goes. Normally you'd see speeds around 125 and even 120 if light for the Tomcat for "on speed". And remember, speed and AOA is decoupled. But with the current WIP state of the flight model and all that I wouldn't be surprised if this changes again.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Roosterfeet]

1 hour ago, Dauntless 7 said:

"On speed" should mean "on AoA". But what I am finding is that to get to On AoA the jet has to be right at a stall at 120knots indicated, then I hit the wake turbulence that is now way more than it was before, and the jet falls like a rock, requiring full power to avoid hitting the back of the ship, which mean going around. 

 

At any speed above 120-130 knot I no longer am able to get the jet at the correct AoA. Even coming in at 140-150 indicated the jet falls almost too fast to save it when hitting the wake turbulence. But at that speed I cannot get the AoA indexer orange ball or the E down with the wings on the HUD. 

 

Disclaimer: my Tomcat landings are terrible.

 

Here's my observations on landing and how I've managed to deal with the new burble effect:

On the downwind on a case 1 or past platform on a case 3, I trim the aircraft to fly level and on speed. I do not touch the trim switch after that.  I use a tiny bit of consistent forward or back pressure on the stick to stay on glide slope, and power to control AOA but once I'm trimmed, I'm trimmed. If I need to make large corrections to glide slope I use DLC. I approach the stern with a slightly high ball and, a few hundred feet behind the boat, as soon as I see the ball start to drift down I aggressively use DLC to raise the jet then use DLC to follow the ball as I cross the ramp. The burble will push you down behind the boat and lift you up as you cross the ramp. That gets me on deck in one piece, dragging a wire most of the time. I may try trimming for about 200 fpm sink rate next time to see if that smooths things out a little. 

 

If anyone actually knows what they're doing, feel free to correct the bad habits a misinformation I wrote above.

[Reflected]

I've never flown a real Tomcat behind the boat, but I was surprised how pronounced the burble effect is. I anticipate it but it's next to impossible to stop the aircraft from rising/ sinking. I'm not saying it's incorrect, I'm just saying it's 10x stronger than I expected.

[draconus]

Here's The Pilot's advice:

 

[Dauntless 7]

15 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

Try and set up your own CV mission with controlled parameters and see how that goes. Normally you'd see speeds around 125 and even 120 if light for the Tomcat for "on speed". And remember, speed and AOA is decoupled. But with the current WIP state of the flight model and all that I wouldn't be surprised if this changes again.

 

Thanks for the tips. Spent a couple hours practicing last night and I I am finding the groove again within the changes. I still struggle to get exactly on and stay on AoA and "On speed" but I am able to stay close enough that I am sticking the landing probably 80+ % of the time (When I remember to drop the hook. Forgot to a half dozen times last night). Mostly one and four wires but getting the two or 3 about 50% of the time I guess.

 

Can definitely feel the difference from before the update. Just takes a good bit of getting used to I suppose. 

15 hours ago, Roosterfeet said:

 

Disclaimer: my Tomcat landings are terrible.

 

Here's my observations on landing and how I've managed to deal with the new burble effect:

On the downwind on a case 1 or past platform on a case 3, I trim the aircraft to fly level and on speed. I do not touch the trim switch after that.  I use a tiny bit of consistent forward or back pressure on the stick to stay on glide slope, and power to control AOA but once I'm trimmed, I'm trimmed. If I need to make large corrections to glide slope I use DLC. I approach the stern with a slightly high ball and, a few hundred feet behind the boat, as soon as I see the ball start to drift down I aggressively use DLC to raise the jet then use DLC to follow the ball as I cross the ramp. The burble will push you down behind the boat and lift you up as you cross the ramp. That gets me on deck in one piece, dragging a wire most of the time. I may try trimming for about 200 fpm sink rate next time to see if that smooths things out a little. 

 

If anyone actually knows what they're doing, feel free to correct the bad habits a misinformation I wrote above.

Thanks for the tips. Spent a couple hours practicing last night and I I am finding the groove again within the changes. I still struggle to get exactly on and stay on AoA and "On speed" but I am able to stay close enough that I am sticking the landing probably 80+ % of the time (When I remember to drop the hook. Forgot to a half dozen times last night). Mostly one and four wires but getting the two or 3 about 50% of the time I guess.

 

Can definitely feel the difference from before the update. Just takes a good bit of getting used to I suppose. 

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Here's The Pilot's advice:

 

Thanks for the tips. Spent a couple hours practicing last night and I I am finding the groove again within the changes. I still struggle to get exactly on and stay on AoA and "On speed" but I am able to stay close enough that I am sticking the landing probably 80+ % of the time (When I remember to drop the hook. Forgot to a half dozen times last night). Mostly one and four wires but getting the two or 3 about 50% of the time I guess.

 

Can definitely feel the difference from before the update. Just takes a good bit of getting used to I suppose. 

[Skysurfer]

Yeah, I too find myself needing to re-learn and re-adjust with all these constant FM and handling changes since release causing a ton of negative training. Hopefully the next major FM update will be the final one. 

[Neurus]

I'm new to the Tomcat and have been practicing RIO a lot (well, not sure what a lot is but...).

 

Is Iceman allowed to perform two commands one after the other?

 

Long Version:

You're flying with a heading of 270 degrees.

You command iceman to go North (absolute heading).

As the turn is happening, you command him to climb to angels 30 (random commands for the sake of the example).

What I noticed is that Iceman stops the turn, and initiates the climb.

If you reach the desired altitude, the turn is never resumed (which would be a workaround at least).

If you give Iceman another command before reaching the desired altitude, he still stop the climb (or descent) and perform the last command.

 

Short Version: In other words, is Iceman will only able perform the last command, and will he ignore/abort the previous one(s)? is this by design? Has this always been like this?

 

Thanks!

 

(I'm playing mostly MP with my brother and we're loving it, but in order to practice single player, I need to use Iceman to fly the thing while I fiddle with the back seat stuff, that's why I found these limitations).

[veenee]

yes, I have also noticed that when playing with Iceman

[Cobra847]

Yes- unfortunately- ICEMAN was really somewhat of an afterthought (it's actually an interface to the F-14's autopilot, technically speaking) - and we are currently unable to execute several commands simultaneously. 

 

This is something we endeavour to avoid for future multicrew modules, and will be making the requisite investment into generic pilotage AI that will make it all a bit more capable. With no promises, we will hopefully backport this at some point.

[Uxi]

Just did one of the Marianas landings on the Truman.  Burble was definitely less in the F-14B. 

 

Froze trying to load the second Tomcat mission (same Instant Action in the F-14A).