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The rudder yaw that keeps from flying straight


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Im seeing a lot of posts on this issue, so perhaps a few things to point out for those who might not have flown choppers like Mi8 much

 

1) Torque. Prop spins one way, it will try to equal and opposite the helicopter the other.

 

2) Rudder/tail rotor stops this. You need to bind this (ideally to pedals). yes you can use the keyboard, but no not really... pedals is by far most natural

 

3) even with pedals its still not going straight - the autopilot is broken down into 4 channels (pitch / roll / yaw / blade angles). If you have the YAW autopilot engaged, it will try and yaw into the direction you last timmed it. So if you are in a nice hover facing north, and press trimmer button, the rudder will keep trying to face north. the more you try and fly another direction, and the harder you press rudder to go this other direction, the more gradually the autopilot will keep yawing back to north.

to fix this, either disconnect yaw channel (the left most autopilot box) or press trimmer button once pointed in the direction you wish to be.

 

4) special options / rudder trim [x] - I massively recommend this in DCS heli's, because we dont have physical forces feeding back on our pedals letting us more precisely control the rudder based on where it "feels right". Therefore enable this option, apply as much rudder as you like, press pilot trimmer as normal, and along with the strick being trimmed out to netural, so is the rudder. 

 

for those not used to flying helicopters, you need to keep using the "pilot trimmer" to set the forces to neutral everytime you change speeds or power settings, and many times coming in and out of extended hovers and even depending which way into the wind you are facing. This is not to be confused with the regular trim up/down/left/right which does exist on the hind and is an easy way to just add a bit of trim like in a plane.

 

I hope some of these tips help, but dont forget for the autopilots to be working, it needs proper power supply and gyro's etc, so if all the autopilots are not lit up (or stay on red) then you have other issues facing you.

 

I recommend binding autopilot off, trim reset button, pilot trim button, on 1 hat of your hotas and trying to keep it the same across every helo module. Then if rooms allows, I recommend binding another hat on your hotas to the 4 channels of the autopilot. Often times you will just want pitch and bank, other times just yaw.  I use the button on the pinky position on the WH throttles for hovering - which already seems to work quite well in hind. hope this helps someone figure something out who maybe new to it all. hope you enjoy it too

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1 hour ago, FoxxyTrotty said:

So if you are in a nice hover facing north, and press trimmer button, the rudder will keep trying to face north. the more you try and fly another direction, and the harder you press rudder to go this other direction, the more gradually the autopilot will keep yawing back to north.

to fix this, either disconnect yaw channel (the left most autopilot box) or press trimmer button once pointed in the direction you wish to be.

Omg you're a life saver. This was driving me nuts. I had no idea why the yaw was acting so weird when I'd try to try to return straight and level after a turn.

 

Think I'll just fly without yaw AP til I get the hang of it. My only other chopper is the huey anyway so with pedal trim it's not bad

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55 minutes ago, F900EX said:

Good work Foxy, this is very helpful.

 

Question... I can't find the special options / rudder trim, when I hit ESC and go to options/special tab I don't see it.

 

Unfortunately, it can't be viewed from the escape menu. You have to back out to the main menu and go into options -> special to change it. 

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Except I can fly the Huey and the Mi8 just fine, I have no idea what's going on in the Hind. 

 

I have another problem, I use a MSFFB2 stick and it works wonderfully with choppers, however I would like the trim NOT to affect my rudders. I.E. when I press right rudder, that's the input I want. If I release it, I want it to return to 0 input, and if I trim it affects ONLY my cyclic. Is there a way to set up the controls in the Hind so it works like that?

 

Thank you. 


Edited by Lurker
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28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Except I can fly the Huey and the Mi8 just fine, I have no idea what's going on in the Hind. 

 

I have another problem, I use a MSFFB2 stick and it works wonderfully with choppers, however I would like the trim NOT to affect my rudders. I.E. when I press right rudder, that's the input I want. If I release it, I want it to return to 0 input, and if I trim it affects ONLY my cyclic. Is there a way to set up the controls in the Hind so it works like that?

 

Thank you. 

 

Left kneecap, turn off the Rudder-Auto pilot while you use the rudder. it'll fight your inputs But VERY slowly. (Compared to the Huey which Jerks the controls, this moves at snails pace.) 

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Except I can fly the Huey and the Mi8 just fine, I have no idea what's going on in the Hind. 

 

 

I'm finding this to be the most difficult to fly of all the DCS modules I have, rotary or otherwise.

 

The last thing I was flying was the Ka-50, so maybe I'm stuck in a bad habit here, so can anyone clarify this for me: In the Ka-50, you generally hold the trimmer down, fly into a stable position then release the trimmer - and everything is smooth and normal. Is the trimmer the same function-wise with the Hind? Should I hold it down while maneuvering then release? Or am I doing this completely wrong?

 

At the moment I'm finding it so much more jittery and unbalanced than I was expecting of a relatively heavy helo, and after seeing videos of others flying so smoothly, I must be doing something wrong.

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I'm thinking there is some kind of trimming bug that's related to the YAW AP channel, or the dampening. It's either that, or we are doing something wrong. 

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3 minutes ago, LooseSeal said:

 

I'm finding this to be the most difficult to fly of all the DCS modules I have, rotary or otherwise.

 

The last thing I was flying was the Ka-50, so maybe I'm stuck in a bad habit here, so can anyone clarify this for me: In the Ka-50, you generally hold the trimmer down, fly into a stable position then release the trimmer - and everything is smooth and normal. Is the trimmer the same function-wise with the Hind? Should I hold it down while maneuvering then release? Or am I doing this completely wrong?

 

At the moment I'm finding it so much more jittery and unbalanced than I was expecting of a relatively heavy helo, and after seeing videos of others flying so smoothly, I must be doing something wrong.

I'd try to fly it out with various AP systems off to see which one is causing you issues.

I don't think the AP / trimmer system functions in a similar way to the Ka50. Ka50 is the only one where I hold it down while maneuvering, in the Mi8 for example, I sporadically use the trimmer function when my current wanted attitude is too different from the neutral one (that is, I have to yank the stick too much to reach desired attitude). I did the same on my first flights with the Hind, it was doing relatevely OK. It becomes VERY stable with speed, this thing is a joy to fly in formation

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6 minutes ago, LooseSeal said:

 

.. In the Ka-50, you generally hold the trimmer down, fly into a stable position then release the trimmer - and everything is smooth and normal. Is the trimmer the same function-wise with the Hind? Should I hold it down while maneuvering then release? Or am I doing this completely wrong?

 

 

I trim by getting into a stable flight configuration for where I want to go and then clicking and releasing the trim button (and immediately letting my physical controls return to centre)  to hold the virtual controls in that position.

 

I usually don't run any curves for helos, but I may have applied some for the Hind ( I'll have to check), she is very sensitive, especially if you turn off the AP channels.

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1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

 

I usually don't run any curves for helos, but I may have applied some for the Hind ( I'll have to check), she is very sensitive, especially if you turn off the AP channels.

 

I was wondering if I may need to adjust the curves... it seems crazy sensitive before reaching translational lift speeds.

 

I'll give it a try without the AP aids then and see if I can't figure her out. It's probably just a case of practice, practice really. My first attempts at the Huey years ago were also disastrous if I recall... although at least it didn't tip over quite so much on take-off! I've broken so many rotors already....

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1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

I trim by getting into a stable flight configuration for where I want to go and then clicking and releasing the trim button (and immediately letting my physical controls return to centre)  to hold the virtual controls in that position.

 

This requirement to center physical controls is little annoying here and there. I fly with extended joystick without FF or spring. I have clutch dampeners so joystick stays where I leave it. 

I have selected corresponding trim method and it still cause little odd things that I need to center joystick, similar way as the pedal trimmers.

 

The pedals (VKB T-Rudder) is still with the spring (task at hand to remove the spring and install a dampener) that makes it annoying because how quickly the helicopter reacts to new trimmed position on pedals. So example to make a straight flight after turn you might need to gapply 15% more pedal, you do so that it flies straight and then press trim. On that exact moment the helicopter gives 15+15 trim amount as autopilot will apply that extra 15 as commanded. So immediately it is required to take feets off the pedals so you don't apply yours 15%. 

 

This becomes little like a step dancing if trying to make trimming with proper position with larger inputs. 

Why it is easier to just apply very very tiny amount and just keep hitting the trim button (oh poor mechanical button....) until you have wanted amount. 

So example if needed to give 15% pedal, give 1% and then just keep hitting trim. Each time you press trim you apply +1% more.  It is easy to see how the pedals move to wanted attitude. 

So pressing 15x the trim button in that moment makes it easier to make controlled turn without yanking, but it is slower.

 

Need to try the trim hat later on (doesn't move the physical joystick) how much it helps. But all attack runs etc are difficult to do if trying to make them with "hold-move-release" method as it will yank on the release moment completely. Why it is easier to just not to trim in the attack phase but just move joystick as you have full smooth control of the flight. 

 

1 hour ago, wowbagger said:

I usually don't run any curves for helos, but I may have applied some for the Hind ( I'll have to check), she is very sensitive, especially if you turn off the AP channels.

 

I think what is causing confusion for many is that Mi-24 is very stable in forward flight. It behaves nicely and requires large control movements to make tighter changes. Then when you go to slow speeds, that streamlined flight is minimized/gone and the difference is major one. So it can become little as a shock how suddenly the Mi-24 is nimble and reacts so quickly to smaller inputs.

Compared to the Mi-8 that has that huge "green house" cockpit and is round as a blowfish and flies like that all the time. So it is easy to learn its behavior. 

 

On the first flight for me the Mi-24 felt like trying to steer a ocean liner. So custom for small control inputs that you easily take a 1-2 km turn radius with that thing and need to concentrate to pull tighter to make faster turns.

 

 

1 minute ago, wowbagger said:

I checked and apparently I have curves of 9-11% on all axes at the moment. I find the Mi-24 fairly pitch sensitive.

 

Have you flown with the pitch stabilizer On? 

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I've never tried the Joystick Without Springs and FFB trim setting ... because I have springs.

Screen_210617_123239.jpg

 

But when I say 'immediately return to centre', I'm talking very small movements and corrections. It's not a big deal really. I think it's just a matter of practice (it hasn't been out for even 24 hours). Don't expect it to behave like the Ka-50 or the Mi-8, it doesn't. It has its own quirks and idiosyncrasies. Big torque changes require a LOT of compensation in the other axes. You must be proactive, not reactive, or you will end up in a broken fiery mess - but this makes it so much fun and engaging to wrangle around the skies. It is the polar opposite of FBW+HMCS+MFDs.

 

It's easily my favourite helo to fly and probably my favourite module in DCS. I think the devs did an incredible job with her.


Edited by wowbagger
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One thing that really caught me off-guard several times yesterday was the unexpected flip. I guess it is connected to overspeed and collective, but Im not sure.
Suddenly the Hind starts to roll sharply, go invert and crash. Easing off on the collective and watching the speed seems to have resolved the issue. But it really

surprised me compared to the other helicopters in DCS.    

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Yes, you're likely flying too fast and suffering retreating blade stall. It's super easy to do on an attack run diving in with rockets/guns. Watch your speed and as soon as it starts to shoulder over to the right, drop some collective and nose up - seems the best recovery for me. It will become unrecoverable very quickly otherwise.

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Regarding not enough rudder authority to counter yaw - could this be an implementation (the first?) of LTE - Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness?

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2 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

This requirement to center physical controls is little annoying here and there. I fly with extended joystick without FF or spring. I have clutch dampeners so joystick stays where I leave it.

 

You might be better off (and more realistic) in not using the trimmer at all in that case. Its entire purpose in life is to reduce loads on the stick so the pilot isn't constantly fighting against reversion forces in forward flight. If your stick is non-centering and holds position on its own, then you already have precisely what the trimmer would be attempting to provide.

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9 minutes ago, Hyena said:

You might be better off (and more realistic) in not using the trimmer at all in that case. Its entire purpose in life is to reduce loads on the stick so the pilot isn't constantly fighting against reversion forces in forward flight. If your stick is non-centering and holds position on its own, then you already have precisely what the trimmer would be attempting to provide.

 

It is little so, but then the Auto Pilot modes don't work as it doesn't know what are your wanted parameters. So trimmer is critical for that. 

The problem actually get solved by disabling the "rudder trimmer". As rudder is not suddenly doubled by it, it will keep all other channels correct and they don't affect to it. So when trimming you can be predictive with all controls. Problem just is that if there is spring on the pedals, then you need to hold them in position all the time. 

That just means it is time to install the dampener to the pedals to make them springless.  

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I have virpil stick and throttle, and crosswind pedals. 
 

The hind’s default curves didn’t make any sense to me, being as sensitive as a light helo on the ground, but with almost no pedal authority. Currently my curves are this:

 

Cyclic, both axes: +10

Collective: 0

Pedals: -15

 

 

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What I found out so far and probably can cause problems is that if you have rudder disconnected from trim in special tab and you use heading AP channel, the heading AP channel does not update when pressing the trim. So it seems that it is best not use the heading channel in this case. This applies to FFB stick (G940).


Edited by Dr_Arrow
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5 hours ago, Hyena said:

 

You might be better off (and more realistic) in not using the trimmer at all in that case. Its entire purpose in life is to reduce loads on the stick so the pilot isn't constantly fighting against reversion forces in forward flight. If your stick is non-centering and holds position on its own, then you already have precisely what the trimmer would be attempting to provide.

 

You are right about not to use trim. The Mi-24P doesn't put at all a fight to fly when not using a trim. 

I was confused because the AP channels to operate similar way as in a Mi-8, where the flight engineer job is to adjust them for given condition.

So in Mi-8 you have a trim and then you have AP channels, both separated. 

In the Mi-24P you have them both joined behind the trim button. 

 

What seems to cause the problem is that the trim looks to require you to recenter the cyclic, even when you have it set as "no-FF & no-spring".

So every time you trim, you don't just program AP for current flight condition, but you need to recenter cyclic and pedals so you don't apply any extra and so on fight on the AP.

 

I was checking the control indicator and after each trim press, everything went fine as long I immediately centered pedals and joystick.

This doesn't make sense as why to have a non-centering and no-FF joystick when trimmer behaves like it is a spring loaded and centering joystick?

 

The downside is that I can't use AP feature at all. 

 

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With only these three helo trimmer modes available, even when functioning properly which they may not be yet on Hind, it's always going to be at least a little awkward with centering sticks and centering pedals (or twist on the flight stick).  Default and centering helo trimmer modes are what you centering folks will have to put up with, and neither is without its quirks.  There's just no way around that without either an outright fourth rate-command / attitude-hold mode or at least a crude auto trimmer feedback-style thing.  If you can't get used to one of these existing modes enough, you don't buy FFB (use default first trimmer mode), or remove the springs or buy some expensive pro helo gear (use third mode for either), you'd instead need to use an outside intermediary utility & script to do the auto trimming to make it any more natural.  And that's just going to fix the DCS cyclic issues.  I don't think I've ever actually tried an auto trimming script for the yaw, rather I just used a yaw trim axis on a thumb rotary on my throttle for the Huey and Gazelle when I tried them.

For the yaw without using scripts, if you have this Hind SAS yaw channel on I assume releasing trimmer is going to clear that designation.  If you're using the SAS yaw channel this way, I would guess you do not want the Rudder Trimmer on in options, as having them both on with centering pedals would create a particular nightmare.  If you have centering pedals or a twist on your stick without any other mitigation method, you're going to have to decide whether you want the SAS doing the yaw stuff or you want the Rudder Trimmer to be just holding the virtual background pedal position with that yaw SAS channel off, and in either case you're stuck awkwardly fiddling with a trimmer release button for something: the heading designation or the virtual background rudder trim.  Neither is going to be as fun as it could be and not how helos with centering controls work.  Yeah, they also have sophisticated digital FBW like an F-16, but the Hind doesn't have centering controls, either.  So pick your poison, Realism Police.

At this point, though, I think ED just needs to drop these dang three trimmer modes & the awful Rudder Trimmer check box, and instead give two selection drop downs:  one for cyclic, one for pedals.  Cyclic choices would be a new RC/AH (basically an auto-trimmer), FFB (current default cyclic trimmer), and Pro (current third no-trimmer) modes to choose from.  Pedals would be Centering (basically limited-authority auto-tail-mixing that doesn't require manual SAS heading designation) and Non-Centering (old school) to choose from.  No one will need the current second centering cyclic trimmer mode.  No one will need Rudder Trimmer.  Boom, everyone would have their trimmer needs met, and certainly there'd be less frustration and confusion among DCS helo users than there are now.  I would bet not a single person in the world misses using the current default or centering trimmer modes with centering (or pressure) joysticks or having to fight the SAS (or rudder trimmer) with centering pedals (or twist).  Anyone wanna claim you'd actually miss the current first two cyclic trimmer modes and you don't have either FFB or pro helo flight controls?

 


Edited by Reticuli
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If I hop onto Syria free flight I'm seeing I think part of the rudder issue that we're getting. The pic example 1 (bottom pic, sorry I loaded them in wrong order) shows the pedals as soon as I take control. My physical pedals are neutral, I don't have Rudder Trim option enabled (it is not checked, it's disabled), and the Yaw AP isn't on when you start this quick start mission, yet the pedal sticks to the left. I can move my pedals but they adjust from this trimmed position.

 

When I press trim reset, the pedals return to neutral in game. 

 

So what my guess is, is that some of us are getting these pedals to trim like this by mistake. Whether it is a bug or not, I don't know for certain.

example 2.jpg

example 1.jpg


Edited by Relic

 

 

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