PSA: F-14 Performance/FM Development Status + Guided Discussion

[IronMike]

Dear all,

since threads about the performance being off keep popping up almost every day, please let us inform you of what is currently happening:

- Yes the performance is currently off (by an approx. margin of .3 and .4 G for A and B respectively). We are working on it together with our SME. It is a very lengthy and time costly process, and we kindly ask you for your patience. It will still take a while, until we have everything fixed as we want it. Thank you.

 

- It is not unflyable, nor unfightable at the moment. While this may be your impression, we do not share this opinion. The margin of performance being off is small enough to still being able to fight, alas you may have to adjust your tactics slightly until the performance is fixed again. The choice is yours of course, but we urge you to not "overthink it" and go out there and have fun in the meantime. The fix will happen in time, not flying the Tomcat will not help it come any faster, and we'd find it a pitty if you would be missing out in the meantime.

- Please understand that we are closing threads regarding this issue until it is fixed, because we have all data that we need and we continue to turn in circles. Of course, if you find a new issue, please feel free to post about it in the bug section. Please do not post reports that go by your feel or impressions alone - they do not help us and can be highly misleading, as impressions can always be. Please try to quantify and verify your findings. Additionally, if you want to discuss the performance please use this thread for a guided discussion. Please know however that we will respond only if absolutely necessary, until fixed.

- Please know that we do what we can to fix this issue asap, but it takes time. It is paramount that you know that we want to do everything so that you can enjoy the Tomcat as close to reality, as we can get it.

- As soon as the fixes will be released, we will allow performance related threads again and of course inform you of all the changes that have been made. We are definitely looking forward to discussing this issue with you again!

Thank you for your kind understanding and patience in the meantime!

Edited June 21, 2021 by IronMike
opened topic for a guided discussion

[Hummingbird]

Thanks for the update IronMike, I'll be awaiting the FM update with excitement 

[IDontLikeBigbrother]

Nice, I guess we definitely need a commissar to GUIDE our discussion if the Party say so.

Edited June 22, 2021 by IDontLikeBigbrother

[eatthis]

spot on feedback

[Hummingbird]

How are things progressing guys?

[maxsin72]

1 hour ago, Hummingbird said:

How are things progressing guys?

I have the same question to ask, thx

[eatthis]

On 6/21/2021 at 5:06 AM, IronMike said:

Dear all,

since threads about the performance being off keep popping up almost every day, please let us inform you of what is currently happening:

- Yes the performance is currently off (by an approx. margin of .3 and .4 G for A and B respectively). We are working on it together with our SME. It is a very lengthy and time costly process, and we kindly ask you for your patience. It will still take a while, until we have everything fixed as we want it. Thank you.

 

- It is not unflyable, nor unfightable at the moment. While this may be your impression, we do not share this opinion. The margin of performance being off is small enough to still being able to fight, alas you may have to adjust your tactics slightly until the performance is fixed again. The choice is yours of course, but we urge you to not "overthink it" and go out there and have fun in the meantime. The fix will happen in time, not flying the Tomcat will not help it come any faster, and we'd find it a pitty if you would be missing out in the meantime.

- Please understand that we are closing threads regarding this issue until it is fixed, because we have all data that we need and we continue to turn in circles. Of course, if you find a new issue, please feel free to post about it in the bug section. Please do not post reports that go by your feel or impressions alone - they do not help us and can be highly misleading, as impressions can always be. Please try to quantify and verify your findings. Additionally, if you want to discuss the performance please use this thread for a guided discussion. Please know however that we will respond only if absolutely necessary, until fixed.

- Please know that we do what we can to fix this issue asap, but it takes time. It is paramount that you know that we want to do everything so that you can enjoy the Tomcat as close to reality, as we can get it.

- As soon as the fixes will be released, we will allow performance related threads again and of course inform you of all the changes that have been made. We are definitely looking forward to discussing this issue with you again!

Thank you for your kind understanding and patience in the meantime!

 

THIS is 1 reason you guys are great devs!

[IronMike]

9 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

How are things progressing guys?

 

7 hours ago, maxsin72 said:

I have the same question to ask, thx

 

They are progressing steadily. It is too early to speculate about a finish line though. We hope it will be soon of course.

I hope it is ok if I leave out specifics for now, they would just be detached from the big picture, but currently we're checking aspects of trim. Don't forget it is all tied in together with many single aspects/ parts moving around that have to be aligned again. Thank you all for your kind patience!

[Victory205]

I heard that all flight model (including glove vane installation) and weapons system development has stopped while you worked on the sound of the gun?

[fghidalg]

hello ironmike, thank you for your effort and enormous work to improve our f-14, all in order to get closer to reality; But I have to ask about the implementation of some graphic details such as the hgu-55 helmet, the body of the pilot, among other things that are detailed in the public roadmap; I would like to know how they go with that, thanks for your attention

Edited August 25, 2021 by fghidalg

[IronMike]

37 minutes ago, Victory205 said:

I heard that all flight model (including glove vane installation) and weapons system development has stopped while you worked on the sound of the gun?

I have still cramps in my lips from trying to get it just right!

 

8 minutes ago, fghidalg said:

hello ironmike, thank you for your effort and enormous work to improve our f-14, all in order to get closer to reality; But I have to ask about the implementation of some graphic details such as the hgu-55 helmet, the body of the pilot, among other things that are detailed in the public roadmap; I would like to know how they go with that, thanks for your attention

 

 

The hgu55 is lower prio still and the pilot body takes long because of the animations, and is currently resting to let us finish the Forrestal among other things, so that we can focus on it. It will rather be both items that will be added not long before the end of early access. Thank you for your kind patience!

Edited August 25, 2021 by IronMike

[maxsin72]

I've found this chart, F14B, considered the fact the chart is at 5000ft, seems able to produce a really high turn rate at sea level, more than 25 deg/sec, perhaps more then 30 deg/sec. Please correct me if i'm wrong. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by maxsin72

[Lurker]

It depends on what you mean by turn radius. Sustained turn radius or max turn radius? According to your chart, it appears that the F14B in the configuration listed above, at 1000ft, turns 28 degrees\s, while pulling 7.5 Gs, and flying slightly above Mach 0.4. 

[maxsin72]

I'm talking about turn rate, not radius. Do you think 28 deg/sec at 1000ft is sustained or instantaneus? 

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

It depends on what you mean by turn radius. Sustained turn radius or max turn radius? According to your chart, it appears that the F14B in the configuration listed above, at 1000ft, turns 28 degrees\s, while pulling 7.5 Gs, and flying slightly above Mach 0.4. 

 

[Lurker]

11 minutes ago, maxsin72 said:

I'm talking about turn rate, not radius. Do you think 28 deg/sec at 1000ft is sustained or instantaneus? 

 

 

Sorry, slip of the tongue, or erm fingers I guess. Yes I meant rate. It doesn't say on the chart, but I would wager it's sustained. 

[Slant]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

It depends on what you mean by turn radius. Sustained turn radius or max turn radius? According to your chart, it appears that the F14B in the configuration listed above, at 1000ft, turns 28 degrees\s, while pulling 7.5 Gs, and flying slightly above Mach 0.4. 

 

I'm typically bad at reading EM Diagrams, but what you're suggesting would exceed the structural limit of the F-14 in that chart, wouldn't it?

 

Oh, nvm. That's just the 6.5 limit that everyone ignores... ignore me.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Slant

[Airhunter]

That chart actually cuts off at around 22 degrees as it reaches the lift limit. And for sustained you'd wanna follow the Ps=0 line. 

I'm less concerned about turnrates and whatnot when it comes to the FM but more about the weird drag "walls" that we can currently see as well as stores drag. Hopefully this can be finally fixed after half a year...

[Lurker]

Yeah, 6.5 is the imposed so called "structural limit". In any case that 28 degrees\s at 1000ft, is just an extrapolation from the chart. It's nowhere near accurate, but it's probably in the ballpark. Remember this is an F14B with 4 Aim7s and 4 Aim9s, and I have no idea what the fuel grade would really mean with regards to thrust at max afterburners. 

 

It's all beside the point really. Any way you look at it the thing is a beast, and as long as Heatblur are happy, I'm happy. 

[jcdata]

ITR is 22 DPS at 6.5G
STR is 16 DPS

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[Hummingbird]

11 hours ago, IronMike said:

 

They are progressing steadily. It is too early to speculate about a finish line though. We hope it will be soon of course.

 

Good to hear! 

 

11 hours ago, IronMike said:

I hope it is ok if I leave out specifics for now, they would just be detached from the big picture, but currently we're checking aspects of trim. Don't forget it is all tied in together with many single aspects/ parts moving around that have to be aligned again. Thank you all for your kind patience!

 

 

Ofcourse, I was just checking in

 

 

4 hours ago, Lurker said:

It depends on what you mean by turn radius. Sustained turn radius or max turn radius? According to your chart, it appears that the F14B in the configuration listed above, at 1000ft, turns 28 degrees\s, while pulling 7.5 Gs, and flying slightly above Mach 0.4. 

 

You're misinterpreting the chart a bit Lurker, the maximum rate (ITR) shown is actually 22 deg/sec @ ~0.5 mach and 6.5 G's (peace time limit), and would be 23 deg/sec @ 7.5 G (projected war time limit) at 5 kft. (There's another chart showing this)

 

The airframe of the cat could however easily take 9 G's and still be fine, featuring the same ultimate load limit as the F-15C. Infact the wings were statically tested to 13.3 G's at combat weight before exhibiting plastic deformation. According to those tests the first thing to fail were gonna be panels around the engine nacelles at around 11-12 G's (around the same G some electronics would fail too). In short the cat was built incredibly rugged, and had to be considering it had to endure high impact carrier landings every single day whilst subject to a very corrosive environment.

 

That said, in the same configuration as on the chart the ITR of the F-14 could concievably hit ~28 deg/sec @ SL, but at 9 G, not 7.5 G. Ground crew probably wouldn't be happy with you if you did that a lot though... 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Lurker]

22 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

You're misinterpreting the chart a bit Lurker, the maximum rate shown is actually 22 deg/sec @ ~0.5 mach and 6.5 G's (peace time limit), and would be 23 deg/sec @ 7.5 G (projected war time limit). 

 

 

Yes that's for 1500 feet altitude right? Unless I'm completely misreading the chart, at 1000 feet, it should go up according to that "extrapolated" last line right? 

 

*edit*

 

Nevemind, I failed to extrapolate for Max Lift *doh*

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lurker

[freehand]

10 hours ago, IronMike said:

I have still cramps in my lips from trying to get it just right!
 

Are we or I missing something ?

[Lurker]

2 minutes ago, freehand said:

Are we or I missing something ?

 

The sarcasm, probably

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lurker

[ustio]

48 minutes ago, jcdata said:

ITR is 22 DPS at 6.5G
STR is 16 DPS

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
 

am i reading it wrong or is the ITR speed is lower than the STR speed?

[Hummingbird]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

 

Yes that's for 1500 feet altitude right? Unless I'm completely misreading the chart, at 1000 feet, it should go up according to that "extrapolated" last line right? 

 

*edit*

 

Nevemind, I failed to extrapolate for Max Lift *doh*

 

 

- The whole chart is for 5000 ft altitude

- The max lift curve is the ITR (instantanous turn rate) curve 

- The Ps=0 curve is the STR (sustained turn rate) curve, with the "0" meaning zero altitude lost. Hence the Ps=-400 curve for example is sustained rate with an altitude loss of -400 ft/s, whilst if it was +400 it would be 400 ft/s gained etc..

 

Hope that makes sense

 

51 minutes ago, ustio said:

am i reading it wrong or is the ITR speed is lower than the STR speed?

 

For the same rate it almost always will be, as induced drag at max instantaneous rate usually is way over the thrust that is available. 

 

Thus the speed at which any load factor (G) or rate is first reached is always going to be lower for ITR, and higher for STR.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Hummingbird