PSA: F-14 Performance/FM Development Status + Guided Discussion

[Hummingbird]

14 hours ago, jcdata said:

You understand these charts are calculated estimates?

 

These estimates are based on exhaustive flight testing, hence obviously very accurate. 

 

To argue against them would require you have a long list of extremely precise empirical data to contradict them, which you do not. So I suggest we stick to the charts, just like with every other module.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Airhunter]

2 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

These estimates are based on exhaustive flight testing, hence obviously very accurate. 

 

To argue against them would require you have a long list of extremely precise empirical data to contradict them, which you do not. So I suggest we stick to the charts, just like with every other module.

 

 

Not every single datapoint will be from flight tests, expecially the beyond structural or operational limit area and a lot is simply extrapolated. 

[Hummingbird]

6 hours ago, Airhunter said:

 

Not every single datapoint will be from flight tests, expecially the beyond structural or operational limit area and a lot is simply extrapolated. 

 

There is no data presented beyond the projected limit of 7.5 G, which was extensively flight tested to (and also beyond, but that data isn't listed), as this was the projected operational limit of the aircraft had the number of airframes ordered not been cut short. Claiming "a lot was simply extrapolated" is very misleading, small gaps in between data points were filled in, sure, but that is the same for every EM chart for every aircraft. You simply can't do tests at every single knot, or even every 10 knots, but you don't need to either as you can precisely estimate the performance within much larger gaps between data points; and flight performance testing is naturally conducted within sufficiently close speed intervals that the estimated performance in between the data points can be kept accurate. In short the performance curves on these EM charts are to be considered highly accurate within the speed & G limits listed, that's the whole point of them.  

 

So again, I suggest we stick to what extensive flight testing, and professional estimates based there'on, tells us, rather than anything purely anecdotal.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Hummingbird

[draconus]

18 hours ago, Airhunter said:

a lot is simply extrapolated

That's how science works because we don't expect spikes there on the chart or even they are not possible.

[Sonoda Umi]

Question here:

I saw you saying a major update coming on Oct. 14 in hoggit.

Any chance will we see FM update on the Oct. 14, 2021 DCS patch?

[fat creason]

21 hours ago, Sonoda Umi said:

Question here:

I saw you saying a major update coming on Oct. 14 in hoggit.

Any chance will we see FM update on the Oct. 14, 2021 DCS patch?

 

There will be an FM update in the October patch, but the extent of it is TBD. There will hopefully be a large number of handling improvements that will make flying around the boat much easier and more realistic (hand-tuned by @Victory205 himself, having spent extensive time on this task) as well as most or all of the following:
 

• Updated stores drag while attached to the aircraft to correlate more closely with drag index data from performance manual
• Updated flap and gear pitch and drag effects
• Updated flap deploy rate
• Updated speedbrake drag
• Updated overall airframe drag
• Fixes to DLC stab behavior
• Fixes to slat deployment schedule
• Updated spoiler pitch effects
• Updated AOA buffet
• Updated F110 performance - required after airframe drag changes
• Possible stab behavior updates in relation to trim actuators
• Possible yaw SAS updates - still under investigation
• Slightly increased stab roll power
• Engine malfunctions added to Mission Editor
• More misc stuff I can't think of right now
   

Things that probably won't make it due to time limitations:
 

• Fine tuned TF30 performance - we're going to apply the same tuning deltas from the F110 to the TF30 in the meantime which should get it pretty close
• Fine tuned drag/excess power while maneuvering (although this should already be close after the thrust/drag updates)
• Landing gear and ground handling improvements

Edited September 7, 2021 by fat creason

[jaguara5]

That's great! Small off topic question: are any additional official liveries planned (i'm looking for final countdowns vf-84- currently i have a good one from a user installed) ? Also is the in cockpit pilot body coming? 

Back on topic. If i understand it correctly the above listed FM changes will affect (improve) not only flying around the boat / level flight acceleration etc but also BFM performance, right?

Edited September 6, 2021 by jaguara5

[fat creason]

14 minutes ago, jaguara5 said:

That's great! Small off topic question: are any additional official liveries planned (i'm looking for final countdowns vf-84- currently i have a good one from a user installed) ? Also is the in cockpit pilot body coming? 

Back to topic. If i understand it correctly the above listed FM changes will affect (improve) not only flying around the boat / level flight acceleration etc but also BFM performance, right?

 

 

I'm the wrong person to ask for the first two questions and let's keep this thread on topic. As for the last question, the real answer is: It depends. The handling stuff won't affect performance, and the performance changes are entirely dependent on what part of the flight envelope you're in.

Edited September 6, 2021 by fat creason

[LanceCriminal86]

7 hours ago, jaguara5 said:

That's great! Small off topic question: are any additional official liveries planned (i'm looking for final countdowns vf-84- currently i have a good one from a user installed) ? Also is the in cockpit pilot body coming? 

Back on topic. If i understand it correctly the above listed FM changes will affect (improve) not only flying around the boat / level flight acceleration etc but also BFM performance, right?

 

 

Officially un-officially, yes there are more "planned" liveries. There's been a goal that each squadron that operated the A and B should have a skin or two included at a minimum. But there is no guarantee that everyone's favorite liveries can make it as "default", even as popular as the movie is.

 

The nice thing is while fat creason, Naquaii, and the other FM/system folks work on these anticipated FM upgrades to help the Tomcat fly more accurately, it doesn't impact resources to make the Tomcat look more accurate. So while everyone is happily thrashing the Forrestal's decks more liveries are always being worked on.

Edited September 7, 2021 by LanceCriminal86

[draconus]

13 hours ago, jaguara5 said:

Also is the in cockpit pilot body coming?

Yes, unfortunately later towards the release.

 

Quote

Landing gear and ground handling improvements

Wow, did not expect it so soon, even if it comes a bit later.

Edited September 7, 2021 by draconus

[Sonoda Umi]

14 hours ago, fat creason said:

 

There will be an FM update in the October patch, but the extent of it is TBD. There will hopefully be a large number of handling improvements that will make flying around the boat much easier and more realistic (hand-tuned by @Victory205 himself, having spent extensive time on this task) as well as most or all of the following:
 

• Updated stores drag while attached to the aircraft to correlate more closely with drag index data from performance manual
• Updated flap and gear pitch and drag effects
• Updated flap deploy rate
• Updated speedbrake drag
• Updated overall airframe drag
• Fixes to DLC stab behavior
• Fixes to slat deployment schedule
• Updated spoiler pitch effects
• Updated AOA buffet
• Updated F110 performance - required after airframe drag changes
• Possible stab behavior updates in relation to trim actuators
• Possible yaw SAS updates - still under investigation
• Slightly increased stab roll power
• Engine malfunctions added to Mission Editor
• More misc stuff I can't think of right now
   

Things that probably won't make it due to time limitations:
 

• Fine tuned TF30 performance - we're going to apply the same tuning deltas from the F110 to the TF30 in the meantime which should get it pretty close
• Fine tuned drag/excess power while maneuvering (although this should already be close after the thrust/drag updates)
• Landing gear and ground handling improvements

 

Thanks for the big progress.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

18 hours ago, fat creason said:

October patch

[Airhunter]

Good to hear! Kinda had hoped the 14A had a tad or a higher priority given it's the main type to operate off the Forrestal

Does this mean that after this major revision and tuning effort the Tomcat FM will be in a pretty much finalised state? 

[captain_dalan]

On 9/6/2021 at 8:37 PM, fat creason said:

 

• Updated AOA buffet

 

Yikes! Will we have to relearn to read to buffet in order to figure out what AoA are we at?

On 9/6/2021 at 8:37 PM, fat creason said:

 

• Fine tuned TF30 performance - we're going to apply the same tuning deltas from the F110 to the TF30 in the meantime which should get it pretty close

 

Should the A be supersonic at altitude and with stores now?

P.S. Thanks for the heads up, this has to be my number 1 most anticipated upgrade since release! 

[Spurts]

2 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Yikes! Will we have to relearn to read to buffet in order to figure out what AoA are we at?

 

This was my thought as well.  Gee, I guess that means I need to spend a few more hours honking around in the Tomcat doing high AoA and asymmetrical maneuvers.  Shame...

[captain_dalan]

10 minutes ago, Spurts said:

This was my thought as well.  Gee, I guess that means I need to spend a few more hours honking around in the Tomcat doing high AoA and asymmetrical maneuvers.  Shame...

And rudder input. I just figured now much ridder it takes to keep her level in a flat turn at 30 units a month or so back...... back to the old drawing board!  

[Spurts]

Oh man, same!  And how to do high and low reversals from there too!

 

[Hummingbird]

Great to hear we're getting close now!

 

Lots of great things on that list, I'm esp. looking forward to correct STR, so that the F-14 becomes the beast it should be in this area again  Having to relearn the buffet AoA range is not too big of a deal IMHO, comes after a few hours of intense BFM practice in my experience

 

The stores drag adjustments also sound great. Will be interesting to see if weight & drag with phoenix pylons on/off is modelled.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Hummingbird

[illegal1984]

*Possible yaw SAS updates

Hope something comes out of the investigation into this.

[eatthis]

will we get our 0.5g back?

[Katj]

 
There will be an FM update in the October patch, but the extent of it is TBD. There will hopefully be a large number of handling improvements that will make flying around the boat much easier and more realistic (hand-tuned by @Victory205 himself, having spent extensive time on this task) as well as most or all of the following:
 

• Updated stores drag while attached to the aircraft to correlate more closely with drag index data from performance manual
• Updated flap and gear pitch and drag effects
• Updated flap deploy rate
• Updated speedbrake drag
• Updated overall airframe drag
• Fixes to DLC stab behavior
• Fixes to slat deployment schedule
• Updated spoiler pitch effects
• Updated AOA buffet
• Updated F110 performance - required after airframe drag changes
• Possible stab behavior updates in relation to trim actuators
• Possible yaw SAS updates - still under investigation
• Slightly increased stab roll power
• Engine malfunctions added to Mission Editor
• More misc stuff I can't think of right now
   

Things that probably won't make it due to time limitations:
 

• Fine tuned TF30 performance - we're going to apply the same tuning deltas from the F110 to the TF30 in the meantime which should get it pretty close
• Fine tuned drag/excess power while maneuvering (although this should already be close after the thrust/drag updates)
• Landing gear and ground handling improvements

Very nice! Looking forward to it!

Just a small request: Where applicable, please write in what direction something changed in the changelog. E.g. instead of writing "updated speedbrake drag" you can write "increased speedbrake drag". I realize it's not always that simple, but then again sometimes it is.

[draconus]

8 minutes ago, Katj said:

I realize it's not always that simple, but then again sometimes it is.

It was asked before and the answer was that it's not at all that simple. Like in this case the speedbrake drag was correct for the old FM and its parameters. But in new FM the parameters have changed and the drag had to be corrected accordingly. Now you can't compare this drag alone between FMs as it does not make any sense when separated from other parameters. That's how I understood it.

[Katj]

It was asked before and the answer was that it's not at all that simple. Like in this case the speedbrake drag was correct for the old FM and its parameters. But in new FM the parameters have changed and the drag had to be corrected accordingly. Now you can't compare this drag alone between FMs as it does not make any sense when separated from other parameters. That's how I understood it.

Like I said, I understand it's not always that simple. I wasn't suggesting that this particular issue with the speedbrake is that simple, it was just an example of how I wished the changelog was written where applicable.

[IronMike]

We'll do our best. Moreover it is very likely that we will put up a post explaining things in more detail than the changelog allows. And 100% we will answer any questions you will have in these regards, as always.

[SgtPappy]

On 9/6/2021 at 2:37 PM, fat creason said:

 

There will be an FM update in the October patch, but the extent of it is TBD. There will hopefully be a large number of handling improvements that will make flying around the boat much easier and more realistic (hand-tuned by @Victory205 himself, having spent extensive time on this task) as well as most or all of the following:
 

• Updated stores drag while attached to the aircraft to correlate more closely with drag index data from performance manual
• Updated flap and gear pitch and drag effects
• Updated flap deploy rate
• Updated speedbrake drag
• Updated overall airframe drag
• Fixes to DLC stab behavior
• Fixes to slat deployment schedule
• Updated spoiler pitch effects
• Updated AOA buffet
• Updated F110 performance - required after airframe drag changes
• Possible stab behavior updates in relation to trim actuators
• Possible yaw SAS updates - still under investigation
• Slightly increased stab roll power
• Engine malfunctions added to Mission Editor
• More misc stuff I can't think of right now
   

Things that probably won't make it due to time limitations:
 

• Fine tuned TF30 performance - we're going to apply the same tuning deltas from the F110 to the TF30 in the meantime which should get it pretty close
• Fine tuned drag/excess power while maneuvering (although this should already be close after the thrust/drag updates)
• Landing gear and ground handling improvements

 

So excited! Can't wait. The latest patch too was a lot of fun - being able to use the AIM-54 and AIM-7 online for a bit was great.

 

Too bad the TF30 won't make it in Oct since everyone knows the A is the real star heheh but very glad that it will be worked on with quality in mind over schedule. Keep it up! And of course thank you!