Jump to content

Incorrect Belt Composition for P51 and P47


Cass

Recommended Posts

  • ED Team

The rounds are added to DCS based on the type of round and such, and with the new DM, all this should be accounted for.

 

So far I haven't been told no on the M1 Incendiary and M1 Tracer so I am hopeful we can do accurate belts with those as well. Maybe an Early 43, Late 43 and 44. I love options. If I update the above plan, I will share it here.

 

Thanks guys.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 4

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a great high level source but the only mention of a belt composition is in the Air to Ground Section. It mentions one of the belts @NineLinehas created:

Screenshot_20210805-073416_Drive.jpg

@Marduk879I've read that source quite a few times (and posted it on the IL2 forums about 30) and have managed to miss the point about the M8 not being recommend. Everything else that I've read and heard pertains to the AP,AP,I,I,T falling out of favour by 1944 and a full API, with an additional APIT if the squadron wanted to use tracers.

 

It appears to have been Fighter Group dependant earlier on. If you read the encounter reports of the P47 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-encounter-reports.html) you can see that by mid 43, the 4th FG were using API ammunition, whether as the 56th FG are still using AP&I. Shift to 1944 and the 56th are using API&T or pure API, so the AP&I belt clearly was replaced and API was used in the timeframe relevant to Normandy.

 

Interestingly Gabreskis report from 30 Jan, it appears as though he had the 6 inboard guns firing API or APIT (difficult to make out) and his two outboards firing pure incendiary so there was clearly a lot of freedom for the big boys (he switched back to pure API for his February kills).

 

The books a great overall source, but the 100s of AARs we have across an almost 2 year period are far more detailed and paint a different picture about API.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marduk

SmartSelect_20210805-045008_Drive.jpg

Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S

System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB

Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8

Maps: Normandy, Nevada

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
On 8/4/2021 at 11:51 PM, NineLine said:

The rounds are added to DCS based on the type of round and such, and with the new DM, all this should be accounted for.

 

So far I haven't been told no on the M1 Incendiary and M1 Tracer so I am hopeful we can do accurate belts with those as well. Maybe an Early 43, Late 43 and 44. I love options. If I update the above plan, I will share it here.

 

Thanks guys.

Hi, may i ask how does it look with proposed changes (M8 API)? Is it ingame and did i missed it in changelog or not yet. Or its not going to be implemented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hi @NineLine

 

Sorry to chase again but I was wondering if these changes have been approved and whether there is a timeline on their implementation?

 

More than happy to dig into some more evidence if there are any question marks.

 

It's so great having the tracerless belts now working in multiplayer but with the belt having 2 Ball rounds, it noticeably loses a lot of it's effectiveness.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Thanks for the update @NineLine

Researching, building and testing 2 new rounds is a good chunk of work so understand the delay on that. 

While that's happening, is it possible to introduce the 2 44 (APIT44 & API44) belts that you put together in the next update? The P47 and P51 models we have in the sim are both 44/45 planes so would have no doubt flown with these almost exclusively in their time setting (plus the A-G belt we have currently but API was still mainly used for ground attack) and in the settings we have in the SP Campaigns/MP. 

Completely understand wanting to wait for the new rounds and to do it in one go but it's quite a task putting those rounds together. With everything else the team has on their plate, we could be waiting quite a while.

With the work you've put together below and the fact we've got everything we need currently with the M8 & M20 already in the sim, it would be a pretty significant QoL update for the US planes that's 100% ready to go. 

 

On 8/2/2021 at 10:34 PM, NineLine said:

1)    -- [1] = Cartridge, caliber .50, ball, M2
2)    -- [2] = Cartridge, caliber .50, armor piercing, M2
3)    -- [3] = Cartridge, caliber .50, armor-piercing incendiary, M8
4)    -- [4] = Cartridge, caliber .50, armor-piercing incendiary tracer, M20

        ammo_type = {
            _("APIT44 1944 M8x4/M20x1"),
            _("API44 1944 M8 No Tracer"),
            _("APT43 1943 M2x4/M20x1"),
            _("AP43 1943 M2No Tracer"),
        },

Outer L: 
                    --[[ APIT44 ]]  {3, 3, 3, 3, 4},
                    --[[ API44 ]]  {3},
                    --[[ APT43 ]]  {2, 2, 2, 2, 4},
                    --[[ AP43 ]]  {2},
                },
Middle L:
                    --[[ APIT44 ]]  {3, 3, 3, 4, 3},
                    --[[ API44 ]]  {3},
                    --[[ APT43 ]]  {2, 2, 2, 4, 2},
                    --[[ AP43 ]]  {2},
                },
Inner L:
                    --[[ APIT44 ]]  {3, 3, 4, 3, 3},
                    --[[ API44 ]]  {3},
                    --[[ APT43 ]]  {2, 2, 4, 2, 2},
                    --[[ AP43 ]]  {2},
                },

Inner R:
                    --[[ APIT44 ]]  {3, 3, 4, 3, 3},
                    --[[ API44 ]]  {3},
                    --[[ APT43 ]]  {2, 2, 4, 2, 2},
                    --[[ AP43 ]]  {2},
                },
Middle R:
                    --[[ APIT44 ]]  {3, 4, 3, 3, 3},
                    --[[ API44 ]]  {3},
                    --[[ APT43 ]]  {2, 4, 2, 2, 2},
                    --[[ AP43 ]]  {2},
                },
Outer R:
                    --[[ APIT44 ]]  {4, 3, 3, 3, 3},
                    --[[ API44 ]]  {3},
                    --[[ APT43 ]]  {4, 2, 2, 2, 2},
                    --[[ AP43 ]]  {2},
                },

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@NineLine

I second what @Cass is getting at. If I understand correctly, the rounds currently in game will be able to simulate late war belts in their full historical accuracy. Would it be possible to implement just those in the interim? Most MP and SP scenarios take place where those belts would have been in primary use, so I think it would be beneficial to the sim to get those in first. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

not to stir up things but a new configured belt would mean more damage right?

sure would put a nail in the endless discussion regarding that topic.

however as its been stated its a late ware belt config, wouldnt it make sense to have options for hi octane fuel then? for the sake of a correct setting?

dont get me wrong i'm not die hard with this, just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Shallot said:

@Doughguy IIRC any potential High Octane fuel changes are slated to be looked at after the new engine thermal models are rolled out. 

You think you want 150 octane, like I did at one point, but then you'll end up in a shit hole. What we have now isn't perfect, but its only going to get worse if everyone's motivate is making sure their favourite plane has a competitive edge. No one would be arguing for 150 octane if it weren't for the K4 or D9. And believe me, K4 pilots are ready to press that C3 moaning button once the "Allies" get their 150 octane. Go down this path and the next thing you know you're taking the P-38J out for a spin and you're surrounded by +12lbs Tempest Vs flying against C3 Bf-109K4s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not a competitive edge that everyone is seeking but a historical match-up. .

For the maps we have,  150 oct would be appropriate for 8th AF fighters based in England and RAF Squadrons in England that are assigned to Air Defence of Great Britain. So the 1943 Spitfire we have (not that it is likely that an early 1943 Spitfire would still be in front line service by then) could have had +25 lbs Boost in our maps in the summer of 1944 but they would be facing Fw-190A-8 and Bf-109G-6, not the Bf-109K-4.  By the time the Spitfire Mk IXc was facing the Bf-109K-4, it would be based in Holland or Belgium and it would definitely not be an early 1943 configuration, it would be a IXe with .50 and 20mm in each wing, not .303, it would have a Gyro Mk II gun-sight and the pilot would have a G-Suit as well as +25lbs boost or a Mk XIVe or Tempest V.

So, asking for 150 oct fuel is not really over the top but I would rather they built a Bf-109G-6 instead.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It must also be said that the damage model of the K4 is in my opinion inappropriate, because we all see in SOW how the K4 pilots fly despite being riddled with blows and their engine goes up in smoke. And then as you rightly write, the only German aircraft for this scenario we have is the 190A8.
I just hope new planes will be added soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well thats all good with me.

hard to keep track of whats coming and whats not.

just raised some eyebrows as it sounded like cherry picking on what to have and what not in a "historical accurate timeframe" for one of these birds.

personally i can hold my own against the k4 in the mustang as most simply fly it the wrong way to be blunt. but  as its been rightfully acknowledged the late war mustang uses early war ammo belts.. hence wrong as noted in this thread.

gotta take everything in account then.

guess bit of miscommunication causing grief here and there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...