Air Refueling Cheat

[Tippis]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

maybe there’s a language barrier here because “always” means applying to every aircraft in DCS.

...and it does, per your own confused examples.

 

Quote

All but the 3 USAF aircraft (A-10, F-18 and F-18) use a probe and drogue

Say what?

 

Quote

When you say “no clear indication” again “no” in English means nothing, none. There is certainly some indication

But no clear one. “No” in in English can be applied very selectively to different referents. In this case, it applies to “clear", as in there may be some indication, but none of them are clear, as discussed earlier. The fact that you had to deliberately misread and misrepresent this very simple construction rather than actually argue the points made about why they're not clear is quite telling…

 

Quote

You’re also discounting the value of practice which tells me you haven’t practiced.

No. That's just some nonsense you've made up. What he actually said is that bad practice is… well… bad. Practising more does not suddenly make it good. Quite the opposite. it runs the risk of making not just bad but long-term harmful.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This task (to me) is akin to sim racing which

…has all the aids and simplifications (and more) that are being asked for here. So if that's your gold standard, one can only assume that you are in favour of them being added to AAR as well, and probably would help even more since AAR is supposedly a much easier task and thus a lower skill threshold to overcome.

 

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Most common advice in AAR involves control over where you’re looking. Don’t look at the basket or probe except peripherally

…which makes it all the more funny when you come along and tell people in this thread to look at the probe.  

Edited June 28, 2021 by Tippis

[Tank50us]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This task (to me) is akin to sim racing which is way more difficult than AAR (imagine a 40 minute long competitive AAR session) Some advice from a pro driving instructor is how where your eyes are looking influences your reflexes. No kidding, it works. But it involves “eye control”. (The eye tracking footage from an F1 driver shows how disciplined they are) Most common advice in AAR involves control over where you’re looking. Don’t look at the basket or probe except peripherally. Keep your foveal vision on part of the tanker and your peripheral encompassing that tanker using some cues. Vision is the only feedback we get on a PC sim, it has to substitute for all your other senses. Screen graphics or icons become like magnets for your eyes are are hard to look away from. So they wouldn’t help, if you can’t fly formation with the tanker how could you do it with icons? Worse they’d hurt your progress and become a visual crutch you’d never be able to switch off. 

 

Again, to back up what has been said several times by now, this is what works for you. It doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else, and that's the thing we're trying to get across. Right now, the DCS learning curve is a freaking cliff, with many MP groups basically going "No, if you can't do X, you cannot join". The idea here is to smooth it out, and try and figure out ways to ease new players into these incredibly difficult and complex tasks as quickly, efficiently, and painlessly as possible so that more people are willing to stick with the game, and it expands. Ultimately, those people who speaking as you do, all you're going to do is push those people away from the game before they can even start to have fun, and they simply will not come back. Listen to what the devs have said countless times. They want the game to be accessible, they want more people to enjoy it. Going "here's the Mirage 2000s complete flight manual, study it and gitgud, and btw, learn French" isn't going to accomplish that. Having some optional 'training wheels' for some of the hard things, like flying formation, AAR, Carrier Ops, and more, will ease those new people into the game, and eventually, if they want to start flying without the aids, they can start turning them off... when they're ready.

[Tank50us]

6 minutes ago, Tippis said:

…which makes it all the more funny when you come along and tell people in this thread to look at the probe.  

 

This line got me thinking of the TItan AE scene "Where does the probe go?"
 

And every single video tutorial says "Don't look at the probe, look at the lights" since looking at the basket/probe the basket/probe results in pilot oscillation, which irl, usually results in very expensive screw-ups (That Jag taking the basket, and that Super Stallion chopping its probe off comes to mind). This is ultimately why the tankers have people talking to the pilot, giving them the critical data necessary to link up, which we currently do not have in DCS.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

And every single video tutorial says "Don't look at the probe, look at the lights"

What I’m saying is that the probe is a reference for where you need to be, not something that you glue your eyeballs to. 
That should be obvious. 

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

Again, to back up what has been said several times by now, this is what works for you. It doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else

I am no expert… really. The advice I’m giving you is pretty common stuff

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

Going "here's the Mirage 2000s complete flight manual, study it and gitgud, and btw, learn French" isn't going to accomplish that.

This is DCS, not Ace Combat. There aren’t little colored “fly here” arrows all over the sky. That’s just what it is. It’s not for everyone.

Edited June 28, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What I’m saying is that the probe is a reference for where you need to be, not something that you glue your eyeballs to. 

Actually, that was pretty much what you said.  

 

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I am no expert… really.

You were saying something about obvious stuff?

 

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is DCS, not Ace Combat. There aren’t little colored “fly here” arrows all over the sky. That’s just what it is. It’s not for everyone.

This might come as a shock to you, but… there are.

You've repeated demonstrated that you aren't nearly as familiar with DCS as you want to project, in this thread and in others, and this is another example of that. DCS has exactly that. Multiple versions of it, even. And yet, DCS is not Ace Combat. It's almost as if having helper UI overlays does not turn one into the other… it's very strange.

 

DCS is not for everyone. It less and less sounds like it's something for you, seeing as how you have such little understanding of what it does, how it works, or how it differs from other products in the same (and related) genres. And you've had plenty of time to get to know these things if you really were interested. The simple fact is this: at no point have you been able to articulate why these kinds of tools — ones that are present in other games that you say are much more challenging (for no readily explained reason) — would somehow make this game worse when they haven't done so to those other games. At no point have you been able to articulate why they wouldn't serve their purpose. You've offered a whole lot of baseless, unfounded, or even fully imaginary personal opinions, none of which are relevant to the topic at hand.

[Flyer0001]

Okay.  Here is another proposal for a way to help those having trouble with AAR. I was considering putting this under a general wish list but since the Air to Air Refueling (AAR) issue came up again I thought I would see if you all had any comments. 

 

The idea is to get rid of the "Unlimited Fuel" and "Unlimited Weapons" options and replace them with one option that says something like "Rearm and/or Refuel Whenever You Want".  (Title needs work.)  If you check this option you have the ability to bring up the rearm and refuel window whenever and where ever you want during a mission.  Of course some "logistics" of how best to do this would have to be worked out like do you slow the sim down or actively pause the sim, etc. to deal with the window.

  

This relieves those relying on the unlimited fuel option from estimating the fuel level. Estimating the fuel level is quite difficult especially if you have been dodging a SAM or engaging in a dogfight. They can even attempt to refuel from the tanker and if they haven't been able to refuel they can activate this option and get what fuel they need.  It also provides an option for those of us who haven't flown modern jets as often as we like and get rusty at AAR.  Should we fail at AAR we don't have to end the mission. 

 

For me another benefit is I can go after that bridge with my P-51 as many times as I need to without carrying bombs home. It would also allow pilots to replenish one kind of weapon.  Say Air to Air. It would allow a pilot to replenish your chaff and flares which are part of the window.  These alleged benefits are outside of this thread.  But that is a point, this proposed idea is not specifically for AAR. 

 

Plus development time may relatively low since much of the code exists.

[Черный Дракул]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah it’s clear that you haven’t quite figured this all out. If you had you would realize all these things you’re suggesting wouldn’t help.

I'm sorry to take it out to the personal level, but have you any successful experience in AAR yourself? Because what you're telling here screams you've never actually learnt it. 

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This isn’t “crystal clear” in fact I have no idea what this means…

80's: only TACAN and DFUA lights are available, everything else is imaginary with the help of PI. 

2020's: you can literally draw a multicolored sausage based on same DFUA lights below the tanker, with gradations that can hint at losing/gaining relative peed or altitude, with an "infinite" centerline to try and stay close to and speed markers far along the way for training the approach. Let alone displaying reference points on the tanker hull and cockpit. In this case, PI is not a necessity since everything is visualized as it is and you can correct yourself, since you literally see how much you are missing. 

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You don’t need an expensive controller to do this

Here, 

 

you seem to claim otherwise. 

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

When you say the correct position is always virtual, maybe there’s a language barrier here because “always” means applying to every aircraft in DCS. All but the 3 USAF aircraft (A-10, F-18 and F-18) use a probe and drogue, so the position you need to be in is literally right in front of your face except in the Harrier.

The drogue displays the sweet spot only until it is connected with a probe. Then it moves with the aircraft and no longer displays anything like that. 

And yes, the first and foremost thing I'm talking about is the boom-behind-the-cockpit method (which I have emphasized a few times), which is the least comprehensive of all. Improving all the rest is just an added benefit. 

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

There is certainly some indication of the spot you’re supposed to be and to remain in provided by the belly lights

Which, again, are almost invisible and have no HUD as I have mentioned just a post prior? https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/275382-air-refueling-cheat/?do=findComment&comment=4708772 And work backwards, displaying not a point, but deviation from one? (like I mentioned in the same post) Do you even read all that? 

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The F-16 port is center mounted so it’s really obvious that you need to fly along the centerline of the tanker. That’s not a “no clear indication” situation. 

You can safely deviate from the centerline up to a certain amount, which helps when tanker is entering turn (that's a quote). And for that corridor you have no indication at all. If you think that training like that is OK, you don't know training. 

And yes, "no clear indication" means exactly that's replied in two recent responses to your quotes -- "some indication" just doesn't do here. You have a clear indication of a current steering point in nav mode on HUD. "Deviation from" is not that at all. 

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re also discounting the value of practice which tells me you haven’t practiced. With enough time you’ll understand the “envelope” ie how far you can move and still remain connected.

And that's exactly the backwards way to learn this stuff. Like I said, bad practice is bad. Also, you are incorrect.

 

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve been there and gone through this learning curve and I remember thinking it was just impossible until I “got it”. I can tell you’re still in the frustration stage.  

You tell wrong again. And this is a frightening tendency. 

Also, your description of your training corresponds with doing it the wrong way. That's exactly the result we can expect from absence of either IP or advanced visual ques we're talking about here. In proper training you are practicing this thing the right way from the start and are always corrected or forced to abort and retry if you start doing something wrong, with explanation on what you did wrong. Ypu do not have to reinvent the wheel... mentioned already in the link above. Are you sure you haven't missed the post? 

[t1mb0b]

like riding a bike without handlebars, just the stem, eventually you'll stop falling off but, you need handlebars

[SharpeXB]

46 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

you can literally draw a multicolored sausage based on same DFUA lights below the tanker, with gradations that can hint at losing/gaining relative peed or altitude, with an "infinite" centerline to try and stay close to and speed markers far along the way for training the approach. Let alone displaying reference points on the tanker hull and cockpit. In this case, PI is not a necessity since everything is visualized as it is and you can correct yourself, since you literally see how much you are missing. 

Sounds like a gigantic waste of time for ED. They already said they have no plans for this “Easy AAR” stuff. 

48 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

you seem to claim otherwise. 

I’m expecting to be proved wrong any moment by somebody doing this with a gamepad. 

51 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

but have you any successful experience in AAR yourself?

Yes. These are mine  

 

 

[SharpeXB]

54 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

And work backwards, displaying not a point, but deviation from one?

Funny they seem to work well enough for the real Air Force. You should email them and tell em they got em backwards! 

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They already said they have no plans for this “Easy AAR” stuff. 

Again, just like the Viper, Apache, non-owner SC usage, integrated voice comms,

 

You have yet to articulate why these solutions would be a waste of time. You just keep repeating an opinion that you have exposed as being wholly uninformed and which only ever relates to how you once supposed learned to AAR (very inefficiently). Why is it so hard for you to actually make an argument in favour of your stance?

 

I mean, it is entirely clear that it's because you have none — you never do — but you could at least fake it and not make yourself appear like such a troll, only out to derail the conversation because you feel threatened by the game gaining a wider audience.

 

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m expecting to be proved wrong any moment by somebody doing this with a gamepad. 

No you're not.

Why would you expect something you have already been shown? Something you've already acknowledged you've been shown?

Why are you so incapable of not being disingenuous in what you say?

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Funny they seem to work well enough for the real Air Force.

Funny, that wasn't actually the point he was making. Why are you unable to address the point, and instead have to make these uninformed snide remarks? Is it because you know you don't have an actual point to make?

 

By the way, talking to the real AF, they'll tell you that they don't work all that well… but you knew that right? You've done the research and aren't just making baseless assumptions… right?

[ST0RM]

When will MAC be finished so these gamers can go play on easy everything mode, there? The continued "I cant" so make it easier is getting out of hand. 

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, Flyer0001 said:

The idea is to get rid of the "Unlimited Fuel" and "Unlimited Weapons" options and replace them with one option that says something like "Rearm and/or Refuel Whenever You Want".  (Title needs work.)  If you check this option you have the ability to bring up the rearm and refuel window whenever and where ever you want during a mission.

That wouldn't really solve anything because it would functionally and effectively be the exact same thing. Hell, for some aircraft, it would be better than the unlimited options (mainly due to bugs in how they handle stores, granted).

 

1 hour ago, Flyer0001 said:

This relieves those relying on the unlimited fuel option from estimating the fuel level. Estimating the fuel level is quite difficult especially if you have been dodging a SAM or engaging in a dogfight. They can even attempt to refuel from the tanker and if they haven't been able to refuel they can activate this option and get what fuel they need.  It also provides an option for those of us who haven't flown modern jets as often as we like and get rusty at AAR

The thing is, this would be completely contrary to the purpose. One of the main reasons to add these kinds of aids would be to not skip the tanker bit, and to actually have to worry about fuel level and the associated calculations. Such aids would allow for far more complex, difficult, and realistic scenarios to play out, even if you're shaky on the actual refuelling bit. Giving back stores and fuel at the press of a button would still remove all that, and would therefore remove the complexity, difficulty, and added realism that AAR aid options would allow.

 

3 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

When will MAC be finished so these gamers can go play on easy everything mode, there?

Why would they want to do that, when the whole point is to let them play the much more difficult and complex DCS?

 

This is like someone saying, “hey, I'd like a proper curry but can I please have some yoghurt to take the bite off?” and the response being “here, take a salad instead”… but they want the curry because it's exactly the flavour they're after. Giving them not-curry will not satisfy that desire.

 

You make an interesting point though, although it was probably unintentional. I can easily see ED implement this kind of system for MAC, which would then allow it to be back-ported into DCS and neatly circumvent the whole “ooooh, they'd waste dev time” whinging and hand-wringing.

[Exorcet]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This task (to me) is akin to sim racing which is way more difficult than AAR (imagine a 40 minute long competitive AAR session) Some advice from a pro driving instructor is how where your eyes are looking influences your reflexes. No kidding, it works. But it involves “eye control”. (The eye tracking footage from an F1 driver shows how disciplined they are) Most common advice in AAR involves control over where you’re looking. Don’t look at the basket or probe except peripherally. Keep your foveal vision on part of the tanker and your peripheral encompassing that tanker using some cues. Vision is the only feedback we get on a PC sim, it has to substitute for all your other senses. Screen graphics or icons become like magnets for your eyes are are hard to look away from. So they wouldn’t help, if you can’t fly formation with the tanker how could you do it with icons? Worse they’d hurt your progress and become a visual crutch you’d never be able to switch off. 

I've done sim racing, including simulated 24 hr endurance racing. In my opinion it was easier to pick up than DCS AAR. AAR simply requires more precision and demands more of your sim setup in terms of view control and controls/HOTAS quality.

 

Quote

Vision is the only feedback we get on a PC sim

This is a major reason why assists are requested, to make up for the extra difficulty we face due to the inability of a desktop sim to capture everything involved in a particular experience. It's a common problem in flight sims and racing sims alike.

 

Quote

Screen graphics or icons become like magnets for your eyes are are hard to look away from. So they wouldn’t help

It sounds like the opposite. If your eyes are drawn to the thing that is giving you feedback on how well you're doing, that's a good thing.

 

Quote

if you can’t fly formation with the tanker how could you do it with icons?

 

Because the icons give you better feedback than using just the tanker as a reference.

 

Quote

Worse they’d hurt your progress and become a visual crutch you’d never be able to switch off.

Based on what? People turn options on or off all the time. If people are more likely to try AAR because there are assists, then the assists aren't holding anyone back. Then if people want to move up to unassisted AAR, all they need to do is turn the assist off.

[SharpeXB]

45 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Because the icons give you better feedback than using just the tanker as a reference.

But it’s going to require exactly the same skill and training your reflexes. That’s the part which is difficult, not the just knowing where you should be. 
Also if there are gamey icons or zones then it will just start another eternal debate or argument about how exactly they should be or work and since those would be pure fantasy there will be no end to people arguing about what shape or color or whatever they are. The beauty of a sim is that its reality based. Whatever cue or aid you get in reality is what you get in the sim. So if somebody thinks the belly lights are backwards, we’ll too bad, that’s how they really are. If they were game graphics there would be a 14 page long thread arguing about what backwards means. 

[Tippis]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But it’s going to require exactly the same skill and training your reflexes.

That depends on the implementation.

But more to the point, if you've actually kept up, no-one has said anything else — only that the training will be far more efficient.

 

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Also if there are gamey icons or zones then it will just start another eternal debate or argument about how exactly they should be or work

There's very little to suggest that. Just look at the eternal debate and argument about how exactly the current icons and zones should look and work… you know, the one that hasn't actually happened because slippery-slope arguments are bogus.

 

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The beauty of a sim is that its reality based.

No. The beauty of a sim is that you can do things that can't be done in reality, for one reason or another, but which can be added because they're really helpful for what you want to achieve. So, for instance, having all kinds of training aids that let you train more efficiently; that lets you skip things your already know that couldn't be skipped if it was the real thing; that can change the pacing to something other than real-time so you can process it at a pace that's more in line with your current skill level. All of these things is what real sims offer, which is why they're being used instead of the real thing. Just being based on reality is not something that sets sims apart.

[shagrat]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This is DCS, not Ace Combat. There aren’t little colored “fly here” arrows all over the sky. That’s just what it is. It’s not for everyone.

 

Actually there are... There are the green gates in the tutorials, even an arcade mode with arrows pointing to waypoints and targets, etc. 

Just 98% of us don't use them outside the training missions, or in case of the arcade mode not at all.

Still these aids are there for a reason.

 

EDIT like here for example:

Edited June 28, 2021 by shagrat
Added picture

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Actually there are... There are the green gates in the tutorials

And honestly they’re kinda ridiculous

[Furiz]

17 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Actually there are... There are the green gates in the tutorials, even an arcade mode with arrows pointing to waypoints and targets, etc. 

Just 98% of us don't use them outside the training missions, or in case of the arcade mode not at all.

Still these aids are there for a reason.

 

EDIT like here for example:

 

 

 

I'm completely fine to make AAR training mission like this, so they can train AAR with boxes if that is gonna help them, I bet it will distract them even more but let them try in a training mission with boxes, so they can see its not helping,

 

but I'm not fine with enabling something like this this in game.

[shagrat]

On 6/24/2021 at 11:35 PM, SharpeXB said:

The control needed for AAR really demands a joystick. A gamepad with little thumb sticks just can’t give you the precision that’s required. If you don’t want a joystick then the alternative is to fly shorter missions or select unlimited fuel. 

Unfortunately this isn't always possible, depending on the campaign... So should he go for a refund?

[shagrat]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Sounds like a gigantic waste of time for ED. They already said they have no plans for this “Easy AAR” stuff. 

Actually BN stated "...no plans at this point in time".

So I dare say, if the fact sinks in, that a simple helper option could provide the means to keep a lot more people with DCS and may interest them in more modules, if they can actually do more than just a quick mission with airstart, as they have a realistic chance at managing AAR without a 3 digit investment in HOTAS etc.  ED may change the priorities... Just saying.

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Unfortunately this isn't always possible, depending on the campaign... So should he go for a refund?

Well if a campaign uses it that’s a good reason to learn. I learned it for a particular campaign. Before that I had no real use for it. And afaik all DCS campaigns let you use any realsm setting you like. 

[shagrat]

17 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

 

I'm completely fine to make AAR training mission like this, so they can train AAR with boxes if that is gonna help them, I bet it will distract them even more but let them try in a training mission with boxes, so they can see its not helping,

 

but I'm not fine with enabling something like this this in game.

Well what was asked for is to provide a) a way to "enhance" the AAR box for the connection and may be a tether that keeps the connection to the basket/boom similar to how another combat sim does it. As this will be a client/single player option you wouldn't even notice that refueling is different for the other guy as nothing (!) changes on your side.

b) training missions that correct you, with a tanker calling out turns in advance, a boom operator that talks to you other than "return pre-contact" and maybe some overlay guides (again client side) to give you indications what exactly you do wrong and help you improve rather than learning bad habits.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Actually BN stated "...no plans at this point in time".

You’re really holding out hope based upon that? “at this point”? 
Hey the stuff ED says they are actually working on takes years to finish. So something they have “no plans” for? Don’t hold your breath waiting…

[freehand]

29 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Unfortunately this isn't always possible, depending on the campaign... So should he go for a refund?

What does this mean "So should he go for a refund?"