Air Refueling Cheat

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

I'm completely for those training missions, do them pls, I'm just against enabling easy cheat mode in game.

You need to stop playing DCS, then, because that has been in since... oh... before the game was even released.

 

Or, as has been the premise form the very start, you can just turn the option off.

[Furiz]

3 minutes ago, Tippis said:

What part of it?

 

Why didn't you quote my whole post?

Stop twisting words from others, this has gone all the way to page 9 cause of your nonsense arguments, Ill copy paste my self so you can see what part of it.

 

Copy past for Tippis cause he cant read:

 

"That's not true, it doesn't have to be because there is missing AAR training options, you don't need AAR training options, you need to sit in the cockpit and train AAR and stop being a , it is because they wanted to sell to more people, those that can AAR and those that can't."

 

Do you need more explanation?

[oldcrusty]

Why not simply create 2 or 3 levels of difficulty for ifr.  The 'level' would be the size of a 'bubble' around the drogue/boom or... the angle of line up, whatever. At the easiest level the drogue would jump out and snap on the probe/receptacle and dumb the receiver's control inputs or hold his jet in position. 

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Do you need more explanation?

Yes.

I cut the original statement up in its constituent parts and asked which one was not true. As far as I can tell, you agreed with one and didn't really address or explain the other two. Could you please answer that question or just be precise if there was perhaps a fourth claim that I missed?

[Furiz]

Troll some one else.

[Tippis]

Just now, Furiz said:

Troll some one else.

I'm asking you for a clarification. If you get riled up by that, then that's really on you and not something I can control.

[Flyer0001]

1 hour ago, Tippis said:

I do.

I'm simply pointing out that what you're proposing does not actually fulfil the purpose of what is being discussed in this thread (and many others). It's an alternative to infinite fuel (and stores), but those were never what was being asked for.

I agree with this statement.  Though I have seen people alluding to the unlimited fuel option.  What I didn't get was the remark about - being functionality the same - or "completely contrary to the purpose".  I tried to say up front that this didn't specifically follow the thread but might ameliorate the situation with those having trouble with AAR.  Which in a general sense is what this thread is all about.   It seems that almost every proposal to provide additional assistance to those having trouble with AAR, for whatever reason, is shot down.   And they are left with the status quo.  A few months later the debate starts again.  I thought I would put this proposal out there as a possible way that does not meet a with 50 50 split on yay or nay since it has other advantages and the coding is partially done (or that is what I hope).  This is what I would have wanted when I was learning AAR.  You can fly just like everyone else with the fuel being consumed and if you are unable to refuel you can get more and proceed with the mission.  This seems a lot better to me than setting unlimited fuel and flying around with whatever level of fuel you started with.  

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, Gripes323 said:

Why not simply create 2 or 3 levels of difficulty for ifr.  The 'level' would be the size of a 'bubble' around the drogue/boom or... the angle of line up, whatever. At the easiest level the drogue would jump out and snap on the probe/receptacle and dumb the receiver's control inputs or hold his jet in position. 

 

Well, this wouldn't cut the mustard so... moving on.

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, Flyer0001 said:

I agree with this statement.  Though I have seen people alluding to the unlimited fuel option.  What I didn't get was the remark about - being functionality the same - or "completely contrary to the purpose".  I tried to say up front that this didn't specifically follow the thread but might ameliorate the situation with those having trouble with AAR.

Ah, ok. Fair enough.

 

Yes, unlimited fuel gets brought up a lot in these threads, but it's only ever done by those who don't want to see any improvements to the game and its learning and teaching toolset. You may have accidentally gotten caught up in the frustration over those, since it has been explained to them time and time again why unlimited fuel is not a useful alternative.

 

The whole point is that people want to do the AAR, and want to design missions that has that as a core element, since both increase realism and difficulty a fair amount. Slapping unlimited fuel on kills that outright because it not only bypasses the main point of having that element but it also ruins just about everything else and massively drops both difficulty and realism not just as far as the fuel situation goes. Your proposal has some merit as something you'd use in more of a target range scenario: you want to have to deal with how munition (and fuel for that matter) is expended and how it changes the flight dynamics, but you also want to be able to reset and have another go without flying back to base. For that kind of setup, it would be pretty neat.

 

But I think it's not so much a compromise as an interesting answer to a different question. It probably could be used for similar purposes, I'll grant you, but it wouldn't really help with the whole AAR teaching aspect in those situation.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Черный Дракул said:

Without a synched data modem and powerful processor, I presume that was the best the engineers could come up with. With the help of PI and proper training, this results in decent success, which is good enough. In no way this means it can't be made bette

Wow! You should email the USAF and tell them what a genius you are! That their real AAR equipment, which their very lives depend on is not good enough and can be made better!

3 hours ago, Черный Дракул said:

These sorry boom copulation attempts make me cringe --  

This is how the properly trained individuals do it:

You just linked videos of real Air Force pilots doing this. No ! they’re better than I am! And they sometimes struggle with this too, watch more videos… and I got the job done didn’t I? Without all the crying and bellyaching . Let’s see your attempt!

Edited June 29, 2021 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, shagrat said:

The fact that campaign creators already made 3 campaigns for the F/A-18C with different "workarounds" to cover the missing AAR training options

Sure. But that just shows how mission & campaign design can mitigate the challenge. So it’s nothing ED needs to spend resources on solving. 

3 hours ago, shagrat said:

The first video also shows how the boom is not lowered into position while the aircraft is in the box, but before(!)

Sure but who cares? Don’t look at the boom! 

[Svsmokey]

3 hours ago, Черный Дракул said:

which is good enough. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 is not good enough 

Enough said . 

 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Actually given that such things are coming to real world aircraft anyway (for example the HMD for the F-35)

Big text wall veering way way way off topic… and there’s no F-35 in DCS…

Sure someday all aircraft will fly themselves, DCS can make modules of autonomous drones that do everything while the player just watches. It will be everything you’re hoping for!

3 hours ago, shagrat said:

Well, just look at how other combat flightsims do it successfully.

You, more so than anyone, should know that how other games do things is not relevant to DCS

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Exorcet said:

You're denying a large part of the simulation to those who would want assistance with AAR for no reason.

It’s just hilarious that people think their plane magically filling itself with fuel in mid air or a tanker hose reaching out a kilometer to their out of control plane is realistic. But having unlimited fuel isn’t… Sure everyone thinks they want “realism” but

 

[oldcrusty]

99, everyone switch to guard...  Looks like everyone is different channel here or I can't tune in properly.

What would be the main goal of this 'cheat'(term used by OP)?   Training? That happens before embarking on combat missions and in my view requires competent instructors with enough SIM experience and/or written materials, pro vids/tracks, etc.  I dare to assume that most posters here fall into this option.

Or, ability to just jump in and learn on the fly as you tackle other aspects aerial combat and... look good as anyone else who put in the hours of training and effort and... chat and socialize and shoot s*** while doing all this.

Or, accept the level of skill, whatever it may be and hope that ED makes different levels of difficulty (as I mentioned before) and go on with complex missions without worrying about what this refueling process looks like to others on the net.

I'm cool with any of them. Oh, wait... I know, none of these come close.

[TheCoyoteHunter]

AAR is not hard, it just requires practice. 

Anyone can do it, here is what you will need...

Time and self discipline, time to practice flying formation, self discipline to not let yourself become discouraged. You will find you don't ever fully win the AAR battle, you just do a little better each time. The more you practice the better you will get. If you get discouraged, quit practicing go do something else.

 

I do not have a throttle quadrant, I use the throttle slider thingy on my Thrustmaster TCA stick. At 1st I didn't think I was ever going to learn it, until I watched a video on YouTube of a guy doin it upside down. If he can do it inverted, well, I will definitely be able to get it right side up.

 

my $0.02 anyway, its not hard and makes flying so much more realistic.

[Dunx]

Well chaps, thread printed, I'm off to the patent office...

 

"Mile Long Automatic Stabilised Guided Telescopic Refuelling Hose With High Visibility Stickers"

 

... see you in Monaco!

[Черный Дракул]

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Wow! You should

Before telling someone what he should do, perhaps you could learn AAR properly first? That might give your words at least some merit...

Besides, you misread what I wrote. Again...

 

31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You just linked videos of real Air Force pilots doing this. No ! they’re better than I am!

There is a huge chasm between boom copulation and proper AAR, even if the latter is failed. You straight out can't AAR because you used the backwards training without pilot instructor. And proclaimed visual (and perhaps, audio) aids are the way to do it properly. Like I said from the beginning: your "practice practice practice" approach is flawed since you're practicing wrong. And when you've shown us your skills, it became aparent. Nothing can change that. 

 

35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I got the job done didn’t I?

In getting your virtual pilot back to AARCQ or to some desk job-- yes, you did 

Otherwise, I'm not so sure since I couldn't bear to watch this unporn you produced when you approached the tanker to the point you've actually finished. Like I said, it's actually painful to watch. 

 

38 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Let’s see your attempt! 

NP, just slapped a quick mission and recorded outright with OBS:

As you can see, I am at least making the effort to do it right. But with enough training aids, I'm pretty sure I can really match the videos I linked above -- in quite a short time. 

[Exorcet]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s just hilarious that people think their plane magically filling itself with fuel in mid air or a tanker hose reaching out a kilometer to their out of control plane is realistic. But having unlimited fuel isn’t…

Then you should be able to point out a single example of this happening.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, Черный Дракул said:

Before telling someone what he should do, perhaps you could learn AAR properly first? That might give your words at least some merit...

Besides, you misread what I wrote. Again...

 

There is a huge chasm between boom copulation and proper AAR, even if the latter is failed. You straight out can't AAR because you used the backwards training without pilot instructor. And proclaimed visual (and perhaps, audio) aids are the way to do it properly. Like I said from the beginning: your "practice practice practice" approach is flawed since you're practicing wrong. And when you've shown us your skills, it became aparent. Nothing can change that. 

 

In getting your virtual pilot back to AARCQ or to some desk job-- yes, you did 

Otherwise, I'm not so sure since I couldn't bear to watch this unporn you produced when you approached the tanker to the point you've actually finished. Like I said, it's actually painful to watch. 

 

NP, just slapped a quick mission and recorded outright with OBS:

As you can see, I am at least making the effort to do it right. But with enough training aids, I'm pretty sure I can really match the videos I linked above -- in quite a short time. 

Well congratulations. and look, you learned it without a bunch of silly icons on your screen. 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Then you should be able to point out a single example of this happening.

This is what all these other people are asking for…

[Черный Дракул]

20 minutes ago, TheCoyoteHunter said:

The more you practice the better you will get.

SharpeXB here deminstrates exactly why this approach is wrong. For practice to do anyone any good, one has to practice the right way and not practice the wrong way. Otherwise, this practice is actually detrimental. 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Well congratulations.

With what, exactly? Look at my video and then look at the reference to see I'm not doing it half correctly. 

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

you learned it without a bunch of silly icons on your screen. 

With a bunch of visual and audio aids, as well as response curve switching, I would have learnt it much sooner and much more correctly. You, too, by the way, as well as any other trainee would. There is literally no valid argument against it. In real life trainees are just limited with current (50 year old) technology, but receive much more feedback both from their plane and their IP -- otherwise, they, too, would have been using it. 

[Exorcet]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is what all these other people are asking for…

That's not an example. It doesn't even really make sense as a reply to my post. You claimed magic refills and long hoses are seen as realistic by some. Where has anyone said this?

 

  

2 hours ago, Gripes323 said:

Why not simply create 2 or 3 levels of difficulty for ifr.  The 'level' would be the size of a 'bubble' around the drogue/boom or... the angle of line up, whatever. At the easiest level the drogue would jump out and snap on the probe/receptacle and dumb the receiver's control inputs or hold his jet in position. 

This has been suggested before and it's one way to create an assist. Another good thing about this method, or some kind of auto refuel, is that it's useful for mission testing. I'd be fine with this.

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You claimed magic refills and long hoses are seen as realistic by some. Where has anyone said this?

Scroll back up…

[Tippis]

46 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s just hilarious that people think their plane magically filling itself with fuel in mid air or a tanker hose reaching out a kilometer to their out of control plane is realistic.

But having unlimited fuel isn’t…

No-one is claiming that it is realistic. AAR in DCS isn't realistic to begin with -- I think you're the only one who has suggested anything of the kind, and that kind of shows how bad your point of reference is (further reinforced by the videos you posted). But as has been explained to you on numerous occasions, it is vastly more realistic than running on unlimited fuel. You're the one arguing against increase realism here and suggesting that people should run with the less realistic option. So that image applies to you more than anyone else in the thread.

 

46 minutes ago, TheCoyoteHunter said:

AAR is not hard, it just requires practice. 

...and helper tools and learning aids help with that practice. It's also kind of funny how the arguments against this improvement to the game flip-flops between "oh, it's really advanced and not something everyone can do" and "it's not hard".  

 

The problem with unaided and unguided practice is that it leads to bad lessons and training scars, where you end up thinking you're doing it right but have no point of reference and end up doing it all wrong. We've very kindly been provided with one example of exactly that happening -- it's worth studying.

 

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Scroll back up…

Ok. The only one who has suggested that is you. So... now what?

If you're referring to anything else, can you provide an actual quote or link, to show that this isn't just yet another one of your hallucinatory strawmen?

[MAXsenna]

About 250 post later. How correct I was...

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