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Hover and ATGM use?


Hobel

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why does the helicopter or the ATGM view start to slew so much?

What am I doing wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

the Auto Hover always makes the helicopter wobble, without it works better in parts.

 


Edited by Hobel
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You're not in a stable stationary hover, and it looks like you haven't trimmed out all cyclic deflection with the trimmer button.

Check the doppler gauge next to airspeed indicator - you are moving fwd when you engage HOVER and as such the AP tries to stop this forward movement. You can see on AP controls indicator the longitudinal 'T' pitch channel is at max down and runs out of authority trying to arrest the fwd movement (hence the 'bobbing').

 

Coming to a perfectly stationary hover at that altitude is pretty tricky but you need to at least have absolutely no white showing on the doppler gauge, and even then you can still have some movement (it really needs to show finer movements). Coming to a perfect hover fully trimmed hands-off is also pretty tricky at the moment due to the 'overrun' trim issue when you hit the trimmer button. It is almost better to use the trim hat to try and trim out all the stick forces.

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Thx.

 

I tried your tips again and this time the hover was much more stable and I think sufficient for this system.

However, firing the ATGMS part causes very strong fluctuations, which makes aiming sometimes enormously difficult, is that intentional?

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I haven't fired ATGM from front seat, but as I understand it there are a few issues with Petro as pilot at this stage, same as with the whole trimmer system etc.

But firing the ATGM from hover is not ideal in any case as you need to nose-down quite a long way to place target in middle of reticle to allow Petro to actually fire missile, but the tracking is fine after that. So I prefer to fire a couple at speed approaching target (and so heli is angled towards target) and then turn away to reposition.

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On 6/26/2021 at 3:07 AM, VampireNZ said:

I haven't fired ATGM from front seat, but as I understand it there are a few issues with Petro as pilot at this stage, same as with the whole trimmer system etc.

But firing the ATGM from hover is not ideal in any case as you need to nose-down quite a long way to place target in middle of reticle to allow Petro to actually fire missile, but the tracking is fine after that. So I prefer to fire a couple at speed approaching target (and so heli is angled towards target) and then turn away to reposition.

Use combat flight mode of Petrovich, it will be more stable than flight mode. If you switch on "diafr open", there is no need to align inner reticle with operator sight. You will get launch authorisation even 60°off bore (whether you hit anything is different story).


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5 hours ago, nazradu said:

As a side note. It is actually not recommend to fire ATGMs from a hover in the Hind. It makes you a sitting duck. It's better to run in from about 6km shoot one or two missiles, get out, make distance, repeat.

this way you can at least shoot from the cover, the approach is much more dangerous especially when more powerful systems are the target.

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2 hours ago, Hobel said:

this way you can at least shoot from the cover, the approach is much more dangerous especially when more powerful systems are the target.

Another problem is mandatory overlapping of pilot's and operator's (AI) crosshairs to get launch authorization, you need to be in a high altitude than you'd prefer, and pitch down the nose to overlap those crosshairs . This incurs speed and every damn hostile eye is staring at you.

If there is no such prerequisite then hovering and shooting would be safe.

Was this overlapping crosairs a prerequisite in real Mi-24P? What was ATGM launch doctrine?

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28 minutes ago, muamshai said:

Was this overlapping crosairs a prerequisite in real Mi-24P? What was ATGM launch doctrine?

 

The web page that rotates here is as well more about Mi-24D and V that has a rotating gun for ambushes and missiles with different launchers that tilts (2° upward for in-flight launches) and is turn inward.

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If you try some more realistic scenarios, then hover and firing doesn't make any sense anyway. Basically, if you are in range to fire, the enemy has the same chance. Hit and run is the best strategy for survival. Come in low for approach, go high enough to find the target, shoot and break away after missile impact. https://www.nva-flieger.de/tl_files/images/taktik/arfk/angriffsmethoden/horizontal1.gif

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1 hour ago, muamshai said:

Another problem is mandatory overlapping of pilot's and operator's (AI) crosshairs to get launch authorization, you need to be in a high altitude than you'd prefer, and pitch down the nose to overlap those crosshairs . This incurs speed and every damn hostile eye is staring at you.

If there is no such prerequisite then hovering and shooting would be safe.

Was this overlapping crosairs a prerequisite in real Mi-24P? What was ATGM launch doctrine?

 

Well we know the that with the older 9M19P missile (4km range) the standard doctrine for attacks was low horizontal flight - although hovering was an option. They do mention less accuracy in a hover due to the less stable flight conditions. http://www.nva-flieger.de/index.php/taktik/arfk/angriffsverfahren-gefechtsordnung.html

 

The alignment of sight and helicopter axis seems to be required in order to guarantee that the guidance system can acquire the missile. You can however either aim high, fire and then guide the missile down and/or override the firing constraints but then risk losing the missile (IRL - not sure about in game).

 

 

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ATGM attacks from Hover in the Hind is useful to learn in my opinion for the very few occasions they may prove useful. But they are few and niche indeed. Like, let's say you mask yourself with a hill to your left, behind which there's a bunch of nasty air defense threats, but your main targets are in front of you, and from that position you fire all your missiles in quick succession. Or you have targets in the open, you KNOW the area is otherwise safe, and you are low altitude and light, so Hind can hover stable enough.

But "poke just behind that hill/building/forest and pick off targets one by one" like Ka-50 or Gazelle isn't Hind's thing.

 

That said, when you want to do hover ATGM attacks, what I've found so far that makes them easier:

- You must hover at relatively low altitudes, otherwise you either flatout can't, or can just barely do so and wobble all the time

- Your helicopter needs to be fairly light, 4x S-8 pods = well good luck getting a stable hover

- Mission weather settings: If it's hot out there, you won't be hovering nicely in this big bird

But even in the best case, I feel like there will be some wobble, and you will need to correct as the missile goes. There's also the bump when the missile is fired, so I usually try to prepare myself for it beforehand.

 

When fired from a hover and in low altitude, missile will have its range shortest, which should be 4.5 kilometers. This would still be well within range of any radar SAM if the mission have them included. But it would be safe from most IR sams and I think even the most dangerous low caliber AAA like Gepard (didn't try though). 57mm AA may still be able to reach out and touch you though, and in a hover you'd be easier to hit.

 

1 hour ago, Blackeye said:

override the firing constraints but then risk losing the missile (IRL - not sure about in game).

I feel like it does so in DCS too, at least to a degree. When fired from override, the missile dives down dumb for a second or two, and then the guidance catches it, it pulls up sharply. This makes override method unusable for really close shots, or from really low altitude, and makes it challenging when there are obstacles around you. 

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26.06.2021 в 08:02, VampireNZ сказал:

You're not in a stable stationary hover, and it looks like you haven't trimmed out all cyclic deflection with the trimmer button.

Check the doppler gauge next to airspeed indicator - you are moving fwd when you engage HOVER and as such the AP tries to stop this forward movement. You can see on AP controls indicator the longitudinal 'T' pitch channel is at max down and runs out of authority trying to arrest the fwd movement (hence the 'bobbing').

 

Coming to a perfectly stationary hover at that altitude is pretty tricky but you need to at least have absolutely no white showing on the doppler gauge, and even then you can still have some movement (it really needs to show finer movements). Coming to a perfect hover fully trimmed hands-off is also pretty tricky at the moment due to the 'overrun' trim issue when you hit the trimmer button. It is almost better to use the trim hat to try and trim out all the stick forces.

What do you mean by overrun trim issue? 

 

Asking because I think I have it as well:) After trimming the helicopter it adds some 10 degrees.

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9 hours ago, muamshai said:

Another problem is mandatory overlapping of pilot's and operator's (AI) crosshairs to get launch authorization, you need to be in a high altitude than you'd prefer, and pitch down the nose to overlap those crosshairs . This incurs speed and every damn hostile eye is staring at you.

If there is no such prerequisite then hovering and shooting would be safe.

Was this overlapping crosairs a prerequisite in real Mi-24P? What was ATGM launch doctrine?

Read what I have posted above about setting off bore shot.

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