reported The 30mm German Minengeschoss HE/T round is NERFED

[amazingme]

 Why was the 30mm nerfed after latest updates??!? I wanted to see this in DCS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoLLDi-M3fk. if ED calls DCS World a 'simulator'. At the moment all allied planes eat the 30mm like candy. Please don't make me use the 'biased' word..

 

 

L.E. Added the track but ED can test it online at anytime. Also, 5MB for a file it's too small for the tracks generated online. You can also check here: https://lfdm.online/dcs/personal-result.php?player=amazing how many shots on the human Spitfire [02:53:44 - 02:58:16] and it was still able to fly it and land.

Track File on WeTransfer: https://we.tl/t-EWUMVRdMAd

[NineLine]

Sorry, my bad for taking so long to get here, but the WeTransfer link expired, can you re-upload when you can? Thanks!

[amazingme]

20 hours ago, NineLine said:

Sorry, my bad for taking so long to get here, but the WeTransfer link expired, can you re-upload when you can? Thanks!

Hello,

I re-added the WeTransfer link: https://we.tl/t-0Bi2oHkG1Q

[NineLine]

Thanks, got it this time.

[NineLine]

Watched the whole thing, and besides some ground attacking I didnt see Spitfires getting shot. Maybe make some short tracks with a friend to show your concerns.

[amazingme]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:53 AM, NineLine said:

Watched the whole thing, and besides some ground attacking I didnt see Spitfires getting shot. Maybe make some short tracks with a friend to show your concerns.

Another fresh track from SoW. You can notice in the beginning of the track the P-51 and the P47 that I spent all my ammo on. I was shooting from point blank in the P-47's cockpit.. to no avail. The cockpit was 'peeling off' protecting the pilot.. is that a bug or a feature?

 

https://we.tl/t-6MJhbKQ3Tl

 

Yet another one, still on SoW. In the end you can also notice the P47 crashing behavior. It can survive the tumbling on the ground and right through the trees..

 

https://we.tl/t-1WErOe5a2R

Edited July 14, 2021 by amazingme

[nighthawk2174]

The 30mm Minengeschoss round should pretty much be a 1 hit kill anywhere unless ofc the fuze is not triggered due to not enough material (such as fabric).  There is a video of a test of the round on a spitfire and it blew a massive and completely catastrophic hole in both a wing and a tail section that was shot at.  Don't have the video but it is out there somewhere. 

[Mogster]

This?

 

 

 

[NineLine]

Ok @amazingme, this is what I found out looking at your tracks plus doing tests on my own, as well as discussing with the team.

 

The bottom-line is this (and what I have reported) the issue is that with the new damage model, the loss of surface area is dependent on the graphical representation in the game. So in my tests, I fired 1 round at the inner wing area of all our warbirds, they all have different graphical representations, and the DM uses this to determine area loss. 

 

In this example, with a P-47, the alerion comes off as I would expect, but the damage in the wing isn't nearly what I would have expected visual, in our internal logs, the damage to the aircraft is extensive, but the area loss is what would really make this aircraft a lot harder to fly, and you would be more inclined to bail out.

 

Now tests against the tail were pretty much as expected, in many cases the tail came right off with a good solid hit.

 

Why might the 30mm feel nerfed? Well in older games and even our older DM, wings would come off a lot easier in many cases, this is more compensation for lower fidelity DM, in actuality, and even on the example shown in that historic video, the integrity of the wing is seriously compromised, but little to no damage is done to the main spar. The wing is still attached, it has a serious area loss and I wouldn't want to hang around and find out how long that wing would last but if the enemy was gonna let you fly straight and level home, you could probably make it.

 

So anyways, long story short. I have reported that the 30mm and other cannon rounds need to do the appropriate damage and area loss, both visually and in the code, although what may happen is the area loss might need to be made larger than the visual representation until such a time as we can either update the decals, or get some sort of 1 shot 1 hole visual damage system.

 

Thanks.

(normally I lock reported threads but I will leave this open for a day or two to answer any questions or concerns)

[nighthawk2174]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

Ok @amazingme, this is what I found out looking at your tracks plus doing tests on my own, as well as discussing with the team.

 

The bottom-line is this (and what I have reported) the issue is that with the new damage model, the loss of surface area is dependent on the graphical representation in the game. So in my tests, I fired 1 round at the inner wing area of all our warbirds, they all have different graphical representations, and the DM uses this to determine area loss. 

 

In this example, with a P-47, the alerion comes off as I would expect, but the damage in the wing isn't nearly what I would have expected visual, in our internal logs, the damage to the aircraft is extensive, but the area loss is what would really make this aircraft a lot harder to fly, and you would be more inclined to bail out.

 

Now tests against the tail were pretty much as expected, in many cases the tail came right off with a good solid hit.

 

Why might the 30mm feel nerfed? Well in older games and even our older DM, wings would come off a lot easier in many cases, this is more compensation for lower fidelity DM, in actuality, and even on the example shown in that historic video, the integrity of the wing is seriously compromised, but little to no damage is done to the main spar. The wing is still attached, it has a serious area loss and I wouldn't want to hang around and find out how long that wing would last but if the enemy was gonna let you fly straight and level home, you could probably make it.

 

So anyways, long story short. I have reported that the 30mm and other cannon rounds need to do the appropriate damage and area loss, both visually and in the code, although what may happen is the area loss might need to be made larger than the visual representation until such a time as we can either update the decals, or get some sort of 1 shot 1 hole visual damage system.

 

Thanks.

(normally I lock reported threads but I will leave this open for a day or two to answer any questions or concerns)

Tbf this damage to the wing skin was both on the top and bottom of similar areas (~14-10sqft) and hopefully the updated system will take that into account both visually and in reduction of lift from the wing.  Which in itself could be fatal.  It also cut the aileron control wires which would all but guarantee a loss of control imo (did it in your tests and how regularly?).  Not to mention one of the wing spars was damaged having a good chuck nocked out of it.  The combination of the roll due to a difference in lift and undoubtable severe vibration may just cause the wing itself to shear off.  Thanks for reporting this and doing some testing, hopefully the proposed fixes will come soon!

[NineLine]

On 7/18/2021 at 4:27 PM, nighthawk2174 said:

Tbf this damage to the wing skin was both on the top and bottom of similar areas (~14-10sqft) and hopefully the updated system will take that into account both visually and in reduction of lift from the wing.  Which in itself could be fatal.  It also cut the aileron control wires which would all but guarantee a loss of control imo (did it in your tests and how regularly?).  Not to mention one of the wing spars was damaged having a good chuck nocked out of it.  The combination of the roll due to a difference in lift and undoubtable severe vibration may just cause the wing itself to shear off.  Thanks for reporting this and doing some testing, hopefully the proposed fixes will come soon!

You should test yourself, I am not here to test for you if you think something is wrong, I see major damage when hitting a wing with 30 mm. If you dont, then you need to show that. 

As an example for you:

 

The entire damage log isnt shown, but major damage to the wing is done with 1 round of 30 mm, if you look at the spar damage, major damage was done to the spar. If any major Gs are flown or any more shots in this location the wing is coming off. 

This doesnt mean that the 30 mm is a magic bullet, you can miss, you can get a hit that doesnt do as much damage, you can get a hit that does more. If you get 1 or two good shots on a Spitfire with 30 mm, one way or another the aircraft is done. If you are expecting it to blow up or some other Hollywood effect, then sure you will be disappointed.

The title of this thread is silly and why I let it sit... nothing was NERFED, but you have to unlearn a lot of things from older games that over compensated for lack of a detailed DM with things like wings flying off with ease. 

By the way, in case you were wondering about a second shot on this aircraft, here are the results.