Apache load outs

[Hunter D]

I was wondering, i have notice pictures of Apache's with the FFAR pods on the inner pylons and also the out pylons as well.  Is there a reason for the difference in mounting i.e. fuel, aerodynamics, efficiency?  Is it up to the pilot's  on which pylons they are placed? Or is it the ground crews just saying we will put them here? 

[AlphaOneSix]

Ground crews and pilots generally don't have any say in their loadouts. Unit commanders determine that. In my early time in the Army (pre Desert Storm), the rockets were loaded on the outboard stations and the Hellfires were loaded on the inboard stations. However, when we went to Saudi Arabia for Desert Shield/Storm, we started loading them opposite. I don't know exactly why, but I've heard two theories/rumors. Maybe both are true...maybe neither. First, to Hellfires were moved outboard to reduce/prevent damage to the horizontal stabilator from the rocket motor ejecta. Not sure how accurate that is, as I never saw any damage from missile launches, and aircraft with four Hellfire racks still had the inboard racks. Second, moving the rocket launchers to the inboard stations supposedly made them more accurate, since they were closer to the center of mass of the aircraft, and were less susceptible to tiny aircraft movements. They still seemed pretty inaccurate to me. Also, a full rocket pod weighs more than a full Hellfire rack, so putting the rockets further inboard could result in slightly more stability...and maybe that's really the answer.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, and in the real military, it's up to the unit commander, who can make whatever decision he wants...or whatever his boss told him, etc. Pilots and ground crew would simply never have that kind of authority, although they could advise the unit commander and go from there.

Edited June 27, 2021 by AlphaOneSix

[Remco]

In our squadron we put the rockets on the outboard stations because on the inboard stations the rocket exhaust during a bigger ripple could flameout the engines.

I'm sure the risk is small and there's different philosophies in other units, but that's our reasoning.

[SCPanda]

So what else can we carry besides Hellfire and Hydra rockets? 

[Raptor9]

54 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

So what else can we carry besides Hellfire and Hydra rockets? 

 

As far as we've heard, that's it, along with the 30mm gun. But ED has already said they eventually plan to include both laser and radar-guided variants of the Hellfire, albeit the radar-guided model they said later in Early Access.

 

I'm not sure what rocket options they're planning for, but high explosive, illumination, and "white phosphorus" (looks like white smoke in the game) variants of 2.75 inch rockets exist already for other modules in DCS, so I'm hoping for a few options in that department.

 

For the specific AH-64D configuration they've announced they are modeling, those are the only 3 weapon types (Hellfire, 2.75in rockets, 30mm gun) that were in use.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Raptor9

[9thHunt]

1 hour ago, SCPanda said:

So what else can we carry besides Hellfire and Hydra rockets? 

before you ask, they've already nixed the AIM-92 ATAS, as the version of the AH-64 that is being modeled was not equipped for it.

[SCPanda]

1 hour ago, 9thHunt said:

before you ask, they've already nixed the AIM-92 ATAS, as the version of the AH-64 that is being modeled was not equipped for it.

Yep, I heard, and also APKWS. 

 

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

 

As far as we've heard, that's it, along with the 30mm gun.

 

Well, that sounds pretty bland. Btw, we should be able to carry 16 Hellfires right? without the rocket pods? 

[WinterH]

Hellfires or Hydras. Yes, 16 Hellfires is possible. Also, even with 8 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods, you can get a mix of HE and HEAT rockets as far as I know, becuase Apache supports different rockets loaded into different portions of same pod, and can provide relevant fire control options for it.

 

Gun itself, as far as I know, also uses only one type of round operationally, 30mm HEAT/FRAG hybrid of sorts, that can defeat 25mms of armor at just about any range.

 

Plenty enough I'd say.

[kreisch]

Do not expect to be anywhere close to "combat ready" with 16 hellfires loaded.

 

Remember: The Apache is a helo, it is not a gunship which can load "all the pretty stuff" and take 100% fuel and gun

It's "either or", like in every other chopper.

 

Edit: In real combat even the gun is not 100% filled. I believe I read 700 rounds is more often the "go to".

 

I highly recommend the books by "Ed Macey"! 

Edited June 30, 2021 by kreisch

[SCPanda]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

Hellfires or Hydras. Yes, 16 Hellfires is possible. Also, even with 8 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods, you can get a mix of HE and HEAT rockets as far as I know, becuase Apache supports different rockets loaded into different portions of same pod, and can provide relevant fire control options for it.

 

Gun itself, as far as I know, also uses only one type of round operationally, 30mm HEAT/FRAG hybrid of sorts, that can defeat 25mms of armor at just about any range.

 

Plenty enough I'd say.

Yep. Surely enough firepower. 

 

But one thing I do worry is the the effectiveness with the rockets since we won't be getting the precision guided APKWS. And in DCS rocket damage is pretty low, especially the splash damage. 

 

I will probably bring 16 Hellfires to take out hard armored targets and use the chain gun for soft armored targets. 

4 minutes ago, kreisch said:

Do not expect to be anywhere close to "combat ready" with 16 hellfires loaded.

 

Remember: The Apache is a helo, it is not a gunship which can load "all the pretty stuff" and take 100% fuel and gun

It's "either or", like in every other chopper.

What do you mean? Apache can't take off with 16 hellfires and 100% fuel and gun? 

[kreisch]

Exactly, do not expect to takeoff with such a loadout.

[SCPanda]

7 minutes ago, kreisch said:

Exactly, do not expect to takeoff with such a loadout.

 Do 8 more hellfires make the helo significantly heavier and more draggy than 38 hydra rockets?

 

Edit: I did some calculation based on weight, seems only 300 (actually less than) lbs heavier. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by SCPanda

[kreisch]

Referring to the books by Ed Macey: Even the British Apaches had difficulty with heavier loadouts and needed a rolling takeoff.

They had to decide each and every single time: Loiter time OR the big punch, both is not possible.

 

Might be a much better situation at sea level, but do not expect to rush with 16 hellfires and 100%fuel+gun into the hills of the Caucasus Map

Edited June 30, 2021 by kreisch

[SCPanda]

5 minutes ago, kreisch said:

Referring to the books by Ed Macey: Even the British Apaches had difficulty with heavier loadouts and needed a rolling takeoff.

They had to decide each and every single time: Loiter time OR the big punch, both is not possible.

 

Might be a much better situation at sea level, but do not expect to rush with 16 hellfires and 100%fuel+gun into the hills of the Caucasus Map

 

Nice. Thx for the info. 

[DaemonPhobos]

The interesting part is about mixed loadouts.

You can have either 1200/1150 rounds of M789 30mm (or ADEN/DEFA, theoretically), or a mixed fuel tank/ammo container with 242+58 rounds plus 100 gal of fuel.

The aerial rocket system has 5 different rocket inventory zones fuze settings, most likely we are going to be having the M151 HE, M229 HE, M261 multipurpose submunition, M255 Flechette, smoke and illumination rockets, so you can mix them.

m299 hellfire launchers can accept different types of hellfire on the same station.

Probable variants will be AGM-114K, AGM-114L RF, AGM-114A,AGM-114C,F.

AGM-114M blast frag, and AGM-114N thermobaric metal augmented charge.

Regarding the 16x hellfire loadout, the loadout is perfectly possible, but your hover and general performance will be limited, more with only 701C engines.

The aircraft itself has trouble when fully loaded, it's not just a function of the specific 16 missile loadout.

For example, a fully loaded M261 launcher with x19 M151 weights 613 lbs, while a M299 launcher with x4 HF K model weights around 673 lbs.

Keep in mind that the M151 rockets are the lightest, you can make a rocket pod heavier than a hellfire launcher by adding different types of rockets, however, they appear to be less draggy.

The only downside of the apache is not having air to air weapons, aside from that, it has impressive ground attack capabilities.

 

 

[Northstar98]

On 6/30/2021 at 12:19 PM, DaemonPhobos said:

The only downside of the apache is not having air to air weapons, aside from that, it has impressive ground attack capabilities.

There's nothing stopping you from using the gun or either of the Hellfires for A/A - especially against other helicopters.

If you're being engaged by fast jets - something has gone wrong.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[Clean]

Everything I've read and from all the Apache videos (where you can see their ammo count) from the recent war on terrorism, it's clear that every helicopter is using the Robby tank and they only carry 300 rounds for the 30mm, as opposed to the potential 1200 rounds of the earlier models or models fitted without the tank (which there seem to be none).

[AlphaOneSix]

Yes, these days, it's far more important to have loiter time than to have ammunition. Not sure how DCS will handle that. Ideally, you'd get to pick a full pack of 1200 or the Robbie with the smaller pack.

 

Also, this is one reason I had hoped for A-models. In Desert Storm, my aircraft (and many other aircraft in my unit) carried 16 Hellfires, 1200 rounds of 30mm, and full internal fuel. And it still managed to hover just fine. Granted, this was Iraq (relatively low altitude) and not the middle of the summer, but it was also the base T700 engines. The D-model is just so much heavier.

[Raptor9]

You don't see A-10s taking off with B-52 loadouts in real life any more than you see infantrymen running around with 10 magazines, 4 grenades and every piece of body armor they can mount to their body. In a firefight, whether in the air or on the ground, you need to balance mobility/maneuverability with lethality. If you don't, your survivability will suffer. That's why I always laugh whenever I see a Hog taking off in DCS with 6 Mavs and triple-racked bombs on every pylon possible, struggling to climb at max throttle, and then getting shot down on their first attack run.

 

Weapons are tools, not solutions. Smart tactics and teamwork are the solution. It's easy to compare modules by tallying up the total amount of smart bombs or missiles they can carry compared to the next, but what makes any given aircraft effective is how they are employed.  The strength of the Ka-50 isn't the fact it can carry 12x ATGMs compared to the Mi-24's 8x, it's the fact it can rapidly detect, store, and distribute multiple target locations among the flight via datalink for a simultaneous team attack (assuming the team has the proficiency and practice with each other to do so).

 

On a separate note, I was also hoping it was going to be an AH-64A prior to the announcement. Still happy we're getting what we are though.

[Bedouin]

Anything about the possibility for the AGM-122 Sidearm?

[NeedzWD40]

2 hours ago, Bedouin said:

Anything about the possibility for the AGM-122 Sidearm?

No, it was evaluated, but never purchased or tested.

[Wychmaster]

Am 30.6.2021 um 10:59 schrieb SCPanda:

But one thing I do worry is the the effectiveness with the rockets since we won't be getting the precision guided APKWS. And in DCS rocket damage is pretty low, especially the splash damage. 

I don't know how close to reality it was, but in Janes Longbow 2, you had an I-beam instead of ccip cross. The rocket pods could be raised or lowered to hit your designated target as long as it is under the I. So one axis less to worry about for a direct hit, at least if it the real Apache has it.

 

The manual of Longbow 2 can be found online. Quite interesting to read. Covers many questions I have seen in this forum.

[Bedouin]

39 minutes ago, Wychmaster said:

I don't know how close to reality it was, but in Janes Longbow 2, you had an I-beam instead of ccip cross. The rocket pods could be raised or lowered to hit your designated target as long as it is under the I. So one axis less to worry about for a direct hit, at least if it the real Apache has it.

 

The manual of Longbow 2 can be found online. Quite interesting to read. Covers many questions I have seen in this forum.

I found the manual online, and it looks interesting

[DaemonPhobos]

hace 3 horas, Wychmaster dijo:

I don't know how close to reality it was, but in Janes Longbow 2, you had an I-beam instead of ccip cross. The rocket pods could be raised or lowered to hit your designated target as long as it is under the I. So one axis less to worry about for a direct hit, at least if it the real Apache has it.

 

The manual of Longbow 2 can be found online. Quite interesting to read. Covers many questions I have seen in this forum.

 

It is correct as it is IRL.

That's the cooperative rocket mode.

The pylons can be elevated or depressed in that mode.

They can also be fired in fixed mode with a circle centered in the middle of the rocket steering cursor.

[AlphaOneSix]

The rocket steering cursor is used in both co-operative as well as independent rocket engagements. The pylons articulate automatically, commanded by the fire control computer, with the top and bottom horizontal lines of the rocket steering cursor ("I" beam) indicating the pylon limit of travel. The aircrew have no control over pylon articulation.

 

I don't recall seeing a fixed mode for the rockets in the Block I or II, is that something that was added on the Block III? My manuals cover both Block I and II and there is no mention of a fixed rocket firing mode with a circle inside the rocket steering cursor.