Trim/AP operation

[Blackeye]

I noticed that Trim/AP in the Hind seem to work more similar to those on the Ka-50 than on the Mi-8 in that if you make a correction with the stick and then quickly press and release the trimmer the Hind will over-correct just like the Ka-50 ( which is why I usually press -> correct -> release there).

 

Picture example: Trimmed for right turn (1) and the moved the stick to achieve level attitude (2). Pressing the trimmer will reset the AP channels to 0 (3) and after release the helicopter will bank further to the left (4) with the stick centered

 

 

I was, perhaps wrongly, under the impression that AP/Trim would be more akin to the system in the Mi-8 - so is this the expected behavior?

If so then I assume the Hind is flown more like the Ka-50 in that regard, i.e. hold the trim during maneuvering?

 

Any insights are appreciated.

 

Edit: Apparently it has been acknowledged as bug by Devs on the Russian forum - see Solution.

[MAXsenna]

I do the same in all three. Click the trimmer and hold it, and release when I'm done.

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[Blackeye]

It doesn't seem to be needed in the Hip - perhaps the crew is adjusting things on fly?  It also seems less pronounced in the Hind compared to the Ka-50.

[cow_art]

Yes I noticed the same thing. Tapping the trim button makes the Mi-24 overcorrect the same way the Ka-50 does. Perhaps this is a bug?

Edited June 18, 2021 by cow_art

[Fri13]

IMHO the trim works as centering trim. If you apply 20% left for level flight and press trim, you will apply 20+20% trim, why you roll to left. You need to physically move joystick to center for AP to apply only required 20% trim.

 

So even if you select "non-centering joystick" for trim, you need to center the joystick for proper trimming.

 

Hence, do not use trim button but just adjust joystick on wanted position and AP automatically takes it from there.

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, Blackeye said:

i.e. hold the trim during maneuvering?

 

Any insights are appreciated.

 

Yup. I've noticed that if I don't trim in turns, the AP will start to do weird things and the chopper will not behave. If however I trim all the time, she becomes quite docile. NOTE: I use a force feedback joystick, no idea if that's how it works with spring centered sticks. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Lurker

[Blackeye]

7 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

IMHO the trim works as centering trim. If you apply 20% left for level flight and press trim, you will apply 20+20% trim, why you roll to left. You need to physically move joystick to center for AP to apply only required 20% trim.

 

So even if you select "non-centering joystick" for trim, you need to center the joystick for proper trimming.

 

Not sure if I understand you correctly here but I am moving the stick back to center - I usually use center trim mode anyways (tried default mode in this case as well with the same result), so it's definitely not the issue of stick input adding to the trim.

 

It seems to work the same way as it does in the Ka-50, where some percentage of your stick input is needed to negate the AP trying to hold the current attitude and this part then gets added once you trim - effectively over-correcting your input. That's why you usually hold the trim down while making stick changes in the Ka-50.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Blackeye

[cow_art]

21 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

IMHO the trim works as centering trim. If you apply 20% left for level flight and press trim, you will apply 20+20% trim, why you roll to left. You need to physically move joystick to center for AP to apply only required 20% trim.

 

So even if you select "non-centering joystick" for trim, you need to center the joystick for proper trimming.

 

Hence, do not use trim button but just adjust joystick on wanted position and AP automatically takes it from there.

 

Hm. Sorry if I misunderstand. Just to be sure: this should not happen with the "center trim" option, right? Because I have that enabled -> When I press the trim button the game ignores all further cyclic inputs until I center my stick. But I am still observing the AP overcorrecting the way the Ka-50 does. Is this supposed to happen? If so, how do I prevent it?

 

Edit: I use a regular spring-centered Joystick (CH Fighterstick)

Edited June 18, 2021 by cow_art

[Fri13]

4 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

 

Not sure if I understand you correctly here but I am moving the stick back to center - I usually use center trim mode anyways (tried default mode in this case as well with the same result), so it's definitely not the issue of stick input adding to the trim.

 

 

I have non-centering joystick. So no spring or any force to center it.

It has dry clutches to hold it in place where I leave it.

 

If I need to move joystick right to 70% to have level flight (50% being center) and I use trim, I am giving extra 20% to right if I do not center joystick. 

 

This caused problem that I was confused as I couldn't really get Hind for wanted direction easily as it always required some extra corrections to opposite direction. Until I opened the control indicator and noticed that Hind went to wanted trimmed attitude everytime I moved joystick back to center.

 

No more unthinkable stick movements to get it to center or close.

[Blackeye]

10 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

I have non-centering joystick. So no spring or any force to center it.

 

Probably should use the FFB option then as this will send the trim click to the AP but not modify the stick input in any way (so no need to re-center it) - if it does I'd consider it a bug as a FFB joystick would "recenter" on the current position.

 

However I think that's independent of the process I was describing here as I have a spring centered joystick.

Also I don't consider this to be "wrong" or an implementation problem as this is the expected way to work in the Ka-50 - just wanting to make sure that this is indeed the way the Hind works and it is flown like the Ka-50 IRL when it comes to trimming.

If it is I'm wondering if the Mi-8 should behave this way as well given it's similarity to the Hind, but then again that might be one of the differences.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Blackeye

[cow_art]

7 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

If it is I'm wondering if the Mi-8 should behave this way as well given it's similarity to the Hind, but then again that might be one of the differences.

 

Yes, that's why I was assuming it is a bug. You are right, it might be correct-as-is and we just need to use the trim like in the Ka-50. But for me that would be surprising.

Anyway, it would be great to get confirmation if this is working as intended.

[Fri13]

46 minutes ago, cow_art said:

Yes, that's why I was assuming it is a bug. You are right, it might be correct-as-is and we just need to use the trim like in the Ka-50. But for me that would be surprising.

 

Trim works totally different in KA-50.

I move joystick to wanted attitude and pressing trim will only program AP to maintain that with its 20% control authority limits.

 

There is no jerking, no jumping, nothing wrong in it's trimmer. It works as should.

(What can't be said about it auto hover etc).

 

In Mi-24P with same non-centering setting it is constantly shifting center around and requires to sell physical center etc. 

 

I just tested all the three options and only thing that works even semi-right is the Reset Trim, that resets AP channels like in Mi-8 flight engineer would do it, but doesn't touch the joystick centering.

 

Still for me it is best not to use any trim at all. The AP balances itself out and nothing is causing fighting back as cyclic stays exactly where joystick is.

 

I already got yesterday so custom to smooth and accurate controls by not using any trim functionality. It feels wrong, but if it works..

 

But any of the three functions are nothing like KA-50 has.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Fri13

[S. Low]

Yeah I didn’t realize it at first either.

 

Double check trim types menu in special options. 
 

Default: more like ka50, press and hold until stable flight then release

 

Center option: more like Huey, move stick to stable flight then press trim once and release your physical stick to return to center

 

third option is for FFB sticks I think

 

 

[cow_art]

42 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Trim works totally different in KA-50.

I move joystick to wanted attitude and pressing trim will only program AP to maintain that with its 20% control authority limits.

 

There is no jerking, no jumping, nothing wrong in it's trimmer. It works as should.

(What can't be said about it auto hover etc).

 

In Mi-24P with same non-centering setting it is constantly shifting center around and requires to sell physical center etc. 

 

I just tested all the three options and only thing that works even semi-right is the Reset Trim, that resets AP channels like in Mi-8 flight engineer would do it, but doesn't touch the joystick centering.

 

Still for me it is best not to use any trim at all. The AP balances itself out and nothing is causing fighting back as cyclic stays exactly where joystick is.

 

I already got yesterday so custom to smooth and accurate controls by not using any trim functionality. It feels wrong, but if it works..

 

But any of the three functions are nothing like KA-50 has.

 

 

Sorry if I am not very clear, English is not my first language. I was not suggesting that the AP in the Hind works similarly to the Ka-50. Only that perhaps the trimmer needs to be used in a similar way.

 

So far I have seen two different trimming methods with DCS helos (I am using a spring-centered stick):

In the Mi-8 or the Huey you first move your stick to a new position and then **click** the trimmer button and re-center your stick. If you try that in the Ka-50 you get the kind of overcorrection Blackeye and myself have also been observing in the MI-24. In the Ka-50 hat's happening because the trimmer system wants to be used differently:

 

In the Ka-50 you are instead supposed to first **depress** the trimmer button, then move your stick to a new position and then **release** the trimmer button again (and re-center your stick).

All I was suggesting is that maybe the trimmer in the Hind is supposed to be used in the "Ka-50 way" not the "Mi-8 way". But I have never flown a helo in real-life, least of all a Hind. Thats why it would be great to get confirmation from someone more in the know

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by cow_art

[Rabies]

I have experienced trim being applied to my anti torque pedal input even though this option is not selected in the options menu. I have had to reset trim to gain full use of the pedals. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Rabies

[MAXsenna]

It doesn't seem to be needed in the Hip - perhaps the crew is adjusting things on fly?  It also seems less pronounced in the Hind compared to the Ka-50.

Well, you have they options in special. I don't use it though.

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[Fri13]

37 minutes ago, cow_art said:

In the Ka-50 you are instead supposed to first **depress** the trimmer button, then move your stick to a new position and then **release** the trimmer button again (and re-center your stick).

 

The small trim actions are valid in KA-50. You move a little, press a trim. 

Move a little, press trim.

Etc.

 

You can as well just press and hold trim because then AP channels are overridden, and only input dampening is active until you release trim. It behaves same way as having Flight Director when you hold trim.

 

Why people can't do that normally is that they have trim mode that requires centering after trim. After release the joystick input is disregarded and requires centering joystick. Only after then the trim is applied and joystick input is listen again.

So using multiple small presses makes annoying moving process, when you can use just one trim press, move and release.

 

The trim system seems to be broken in Hind.

As my trim shouldn't move any center, virtual or real one. It should only register AP channels to attitude. Now a non-centering joystick is required to be moved to center, and use a small movements because every time trim is pressed then X percentage is applied.

 

 

 

[Blackeye]

59 minutes ago, Rabies said:

I have experienced trim being applied to my anti torque pedal input even though this option is not selected in the options menu. I have had to reset trim to gain full use of the pedals.

 

Are you sure you don't have the yaw AP channel active? I haven't seen trim affect the pedal but if you have the yaw channel active it'll move you pedals if necessary to keep the current heading.

[S. Low]

1 hour ago, Rabies said:

I have experienced trim being applied to my anti torque pedal input even though this option is not selected in the options menu. I have had to reset trim to gain full use of the pedals. 

 

Post this in the controls bug section. I’m trying to investigate this with a tester

[MAXsenna]

Yeah I didn’t realize it at first either.
 
Double check trim types menu in special options. 
 
Default: more like ka50, press and hold until stable flight then release
 
Center option: more like Huey, move stick to stable flight then press trim once and release your physical stick to return to center
 
third option is for FFB sticks I think
 
 

Default should be for FFB. I use that in all heli modules with my FFB.
But I agree, what@Fri13 reports seems to be incorrect to what I would think. So maybe it should be reported.

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[S. Low]

If default in all helo modules is for FFB then I’m sure I’ve been doing something wrong lol. I don’t have a FFB 

[wowbagger]

53 minutes ago, Relic said:

If default in all helo modules is for FFB then I’m sure I’ve been doing something wrong lol. I don’t have a FFB 

 

 

Agreed. Me too.

 

 

 

And also here.

Edited June 18, 2021 by wowbagger

[Nealius]

The behavior has been very inconsistent for me, often times working fine other times giving an overcorrection. I move the stick where I need it, tap the trim button, then immediately release the stick so it centers. 80% of the time it holds with no fuss. 20% of the time it will overcorrect. For me, the overcorrection is consistently when descending (overcorrection down) or when slowing down to a hover and giving a lot of aft stick, in which case tapping the trim and centering the stick results in pitch oscillations until she settles down. 

[Blackeye]

I guess

5 minutes ago, Nealius said:

The behavior has been very inconsistent for me, often times working fine other times giving an overcorrection.

 

I would guess that might depend on the deflection of the AP channel before trimming.

[Rhinozherous]

@Wags Can you tell us if the trim is supposed to be used like in the KA-50?