Trim/AP operation

[Lurker]

MSFFB2 user here, I have Saitek rudder pedals (standard, spring loaded)

 

I have a question for those in the know-how:

 

Currently the way that trimming works for me is (All AP channels including YAW AP ON, rudder trim in special options off) is that when I engage in a turn, and use the trim button my helicopter will try to yaw to the last known heading. In order for me to fly a properly coordinated turn, i have to engage the turn with a slow pedal push, then use the cyclic (trim or no trim, makes no difference) then exit the turn with a coordinated pedal/cyclic movement (I.E push the pedals to neutral) and then trim out on the new heading. At that point I usually have to hit trim reset, because the YAW AP channel will usually not match the heading which I wanted to exit at. This leads to all sort of wonky and dangerous behaviours. 

 

So the YAW AP channel is apparently not connected to the cyclic trim and is not communicating with the other AP channels. It however is connected to the trim reset button and this is causing a lot of issues in my case. 

 

Does it work this way in the real chopper? I mean shouldn't the YAW AP channel work out the heading from the other channels as well? 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Lurker

[VitMax]

In the real helicopter there are special disconnectors on the pedals. When pilot puts his feet on the pedals, yaw channel temporarily disconnects, so it's possible to do a coordinated turn without fighting the AP. After the turn pilot can remove feet from pedals, which will cause AP to reengage and keep new heading. The same system is found on the Mi-8.

In the sim it is not modeled. I usually fly with yaw channel off, because I have no springs in pedals, but before I removed the springs I was just turning yaw channel on and off manually with buttons on the joystick. Not the best solution, but it worked.

[Blackeye]

1 hour ago, Dr_Arrow said:

Aside from possible bugs in the AP. I have some experience with professional Mi-17 sim and the technique that the instructor used was always use small increments with frequent trimming (basically press trim move cyclic a bit, release and again). I used the same technique for flying the professional Mi-17 sim and I use the same technique in DCS with FFB stick. Moreover I have some time in the 17 (3 hours of flight with pattern work) and even 24 (1.5 hours) as a passenger, but was able to observe how the pilots worked with cyclic and it was again the same approach with small increments and frequent re-trimming. In my limited experience I've not seen the pilots or instructors to press/hold the trim do maneuvers and release once stable or move the cyclic in big increments without pressing the trim button.

 

 

While that works great IRL and with a proper FFB stick, I find it less than ideal for a centering joystick as my brain gets confused about what was the correction I made and what movement was because of re-centering.

 

As for the Ka-50, I think this is a special case because of the way the autopilots work differently from say the Mi-8 and it is beneficial to hold the button down while moving the stick, although you obviously can do that in smaller steps as well and just hold and release the button repeatedly as you move the stick, as the important part is to prevent the AP from fighting you by holding the button down when moving the stick.

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, VitMax said:

The same system is found on the Mi-8.

 

This is what I don't understand, from what little I can glean of the system. The AP system in the Hind should actually be an updated and better version of the AP system in the Hip, yet while I can make perfectly coordinated turns in the HiP, I am struggling in the Hind, so much so that I think I will probably switch to flying with the YAW channel disabled completely. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Lurker

[MAXsenna]

 
This is what I don't understand, from what little I can glean of the system. The AP system in the Hind should actually be an updated and better version of the AP system in the Hip, yet while I can make perfectly coordinated turns in the HiP, I am struggling in the Hind, so much so that I think I will probably switch to flying with the YAW channel disabled completely. 

I can make pretty decent turns if I move the pedals slowly.
But what I see that I don't understand, is that the ball moves differently from what I would expect. If I roll/turn left, the ball goes right.
I have to do some more checking and compare with other modules.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[VitMax]

45 minutes ago, Lurker said:

This is what I don't understand, from what little I can glean of the system. The AP system in the Hind should actually be an updated and better version of the AP system in the Hip, yet while I can make perfectly coordinated turns in the HiP, I am struggling in the Hind, so much so that I think I will probably switch to flying with the YAW channel disabled completely. 

The models of AP are different, of course. What I meant by "the same system" is that both helicopters have disconnectors that temporarily disable yaw channel when you put your feet on the pedals. But both helicopters in the sim lack this for obvious reasons of hardware limitations.

As for coordinated turns, I'm not sure, what yaw channel is doing in our Hind as I didn't really test it that much. But I can tell you that AP in general seems buggy, so, maybe, yaw channel is also not working as intended right now.

Yesterday I flew basic pattern in both Mi-24 and Mi-8 one after another to make sure that it's not my hands that cause Mi-24 to wobble around, and I can say that it is MUCH easier to fly Mi-8 smoothly. Mi-24 needs bugfixes for AP badly, because right now AP mostly just gets in the way of the pilot and makes helicopter harder to fly.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Shame that no changes to this were made in the last patch, its the main thing that's starting to grind for me with the Mi24 atm.

[Clogger]

9 hours ago, VitMax said:

In the real helicopter there are special disconnectors on the pedals. When pilot puts his feet on the pedals, yaw channel temporarily disconnects, so it's possible to do a coordinated turn without fighting the AP. After the turn pilot can remove feet from pedals, which will cause AP to reengage and keep new heading. The same system is found on the Mi-8.

In the sim it is not modeled. I usually fly with yaw channel off, because I have no springs in pedals, but before I removed the springs I was just turning yaw channel on and off manually with buttons on the joystick. Not the best solution, but it worked.

 

I have mentioned this in several posts thanks for clarifying. From what I have read the pedals have micro switches, as home simmers we can not replicate this. With the current implementation of systems in game when you turn off Yaw AP the pedals will remain offset, the only way to get them to sit back at centre is to re-set trim which also re-sets cyclic trim which is not ideal.

 

The other prob tied to this is when taking over from the AI pilot, even if Yaw AP is turned off the AI can leave an offset to the pedals, Again only a trim re-set can re centre them.

 

What we need is a separate way to zero the pedals that is not tied to Cyclic trim, this could be a separate bind or simply that when we as the virtual pilot touch the pedals after yaw ap is turned off or we take over from the AI pilot this registers as as we are using the micro switches and move to what we are inputting and on release they would zero.

[Nealius]

Not sure if helpful, but the Russian forums are reporting AP/Trim issues as well, particularly the issue about trim overcorrecting. Google Translation indicates that when pressing the trim switch, the AP channels reset to neutral, as they should apparently, but upon releasing the switch they return to the position the stick was before pressing the trimmer switch, not after. This would explain why I have so many moments of pitch overcorrection on takeoffs or decelerations.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Nealius

[TomChaai]

10 hours ago, Clogger said:

 

I have mentioned this in several posts thanks for clarifying. From what I have read the pedals have micro switches, as home simmers we can not replicate this. With the current implementation of systems in game when you turn off Yaw AP the pedals will remain offset, the only way to get them to sit back at centre is to re-set trim which also re-sets cyclic trim which is not ideal.

 

The other prob tied to this is when taking over from the AI pilot, even if Yaw AP is turned off the AI can leave an offset to the pedals, Again only a trim re-set can re centre them.

 

What we need is a separate way to zero the pedals that is not tied to Cyclic trim, this could be a separate bind or simply that when we as the virtual pilot touch the pedals after yaw ap is turned off or we take over from the AI pilot this registers as as we are using the micro switches and move to what we are inputting and on release they would zero.

You don’t zero the pedals in flight anyway, the pedals always need trimming depending on the collective position and airspeed. 
What you actually need is the game mapping the pedal switches to a button or key, instead of treating pushing the pedal away from trimmed position as activating the pedal switches. 
 

[Clogger]

1 hour ago, TomChaai said:

You don’t zero the pedals in flight anyway, the pedals always need trimming depending on the collective position and airspeed. 
What you actually need is the game mapping the pedal switches to a button or key, instead of treating pushing the pedal away from trimmed position as activating the pedal switches. 
 

 

In a real Helo I don't have spring centre pedals, these sorts of features are not meant to replicate what the real bird does but rather enable the use of home sim equipment, the same way that we have the option of center pos trimming.

 

The issue isn't when using AP but rather when turning it off or taking over from the AI pilot.  

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Clogger

[Lurker]

7 hours ago, Nealius said:

Not sure if helpful, but the Russian forums are reporting AP/Trim issues as well, particularly the issue about trim overcorrecting. Google Translation indicates that when pressing the trim switch, the AP channels reset to neutral, as they should apparently, but upon releasing the switch they return to the position the stick was before pressing the trimmer switch, not after. This would explain why I have so many moments of pitch overcorrection on takeoffs or decelerations.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately from what I've been able to understand of the thread (Google translate) the Devs have not acknowledged that this is a bug. Do you maybe have a direct quote from PilotMi8 or anyone else from ED that have acknowledged that this is a problem? 

 

How is it possible with all of their SMEs, who actually flew the chopper, that this bug managed to slip past them? Yesterday I noticed it as well, when I flew a mission with the YAW AP off. (It's much more noticeable with that channel turned off for some reason)

 

I kept getting Pilot induced oscilations, I would trim after setting a heading and the helicopter would move up and down, up and down like it was drunk on Vodka or something

It was pretty funny, but then I remembered that in a real helicopter I would probably have puked my guts out. 

 

EDIT:

 

I'm going to need to do what I abhor doing. Upload .trk files. The broken way of checking a broken game

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lurker

[TomChaai]

38 minutes ago, Clogger said:

 

In a real Helo I don't have spring centre pedals, these sorts of features are not meant to replicate what the real bird does but rather enable the use of home sim equipment, the same way that we have the option of center pos trimming.

 

The issue isn't when using AP but rather when turning it off or taking over from the AI pilot.  

 

 

Maybe smaller helos don’t have pedal force trim, but the Mi-8 definitely has it. I’ve seen people say Mi-24 don’t have it, but considering the sheer number of them produced, there can be many variations and options and some of them may have pedal force trim as well. 
What I agree is that there can be a better way of designing the game to work better with home sim input devices. One way of doing it is adding all possible key/axis mappings and let users map them to their equipment, so they can find a way to DIY equipment and make it work. 

[VitMax]

3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Do you maybe have a direct quote from PilotMi8 or anyone else from ED that have acknowledged that this is a problem?

A week ago PilotMi8 was a guest on a stream at VargTV, and somebody in the chat had asked him about this AP problem. PilotMi8 had explained that he doesn't use trim at all, since he has a stick with no centering spring, so he couldn't see the problem. He had promised that devs will look at it, and explained that AP implementation was made even before 3d model was ready for testing in the sim, so things might have broken down since then.

 

2 hours ago, TomChaai said:

I’ve seen people say Mi-24 don’t have it, but considering the sheer number of them produced, there can be many variations and options and some of them may have pedal force trim as well. 

In Mi-24 pedals movement is dampened to provide a force for pilot to push against, but there are no centering forces at all. So, pedals just stay, where pilot had left them.

Edited June 25, 2021 by VitMax

[Rogue Trooper]

A lot of people seem to Trim when turning, I never do this unless I intend to hold a wide turning pattern around something.

I just roll and pull slightly whilst levelling the nose on the Horizon with the Pedals (Yaw AP neutralises when I take pedal in). The Hind seems to turn and come out of the turn very cleanly for me.

[Lurker]

6 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

A lot of people seem to Trim when turning, I never do this unless I intend to hold a wide turning pattern around something.

I just roll and pull slightly whilst levelling the nose on the Horizon with the Pedals (Yaw AP neutralises when I take pedal in). The Hind seems to turn and come out of the turn very cleanly for me.

 

Not for me, and it seems to be related to the bug that VitMax described very clearly in the Russian bug section. I use the MSFFB2 stick and the Default Trimming setting in the special tab. The default setting: Press and hold trimmer, move stick to desired position, release trimmer. Apparently the AP channels don't center on the new stick position but only "catch on" when the trim button is pressed down again. Hopefully I will have time to test this today and maybe upload a track. 

 

Is there anyone here that uses MSFFB2 (or any other force feedback joystick) who uses the other trimming system. (Where you need to just press the trimmer down to hold the stick in the desired place) It might be a work-around until they fix this. (As long as they acknowledge that the bug exists). 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lurker

[Rogue Trooper]

13 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Not for me, and it seems to be related to the bug that VitMax described very clearly in the Russian bug section. I use the MSFFB2 stick and the Default Trimming setting in the special tab. The default setting: Press and hold trimmer, move stick to desired position, release trimmer. Apparently the AP channels don't center on the new stick position but only "catch on" when the trim button is pressed down again. Hopefully I will have time to test this today and maybe upload a track. 

 

Is there anyone here that uses MSFFB2 (or any other force feedback joystick) who uses the other trimming system. (Where you need to just press the trimmer down to hold the stick in the desired place) It might be a work-around until they fix this. (As long as they acknowledge that the bug exists). 

 

OK, I use a spring loaded centring stick (warthog) on the Default trimming setting so what you see I have no idea about.

There is no specific setting for FFB sticks? I thought default was for centring sticks.... but as you probably used it before it is probably a bug. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[Lurker]

Just now, Rogue Trooper said:

OK, I use a spring loaded centring stick (warthog) on the Default trimming setting so what you see I have no idea about.

There is no specific setting for FFB sticks, I thought default was for centring sticks. 

 

Yes, but like you said, you don't trim in turns. Also the system might only be bugged for FFB joysticks. I will try the other setting and report back. 

[MAXsenna]

 
Not for me, and it seems to be related to the bug that VitMax described very clearly in the Russian bug section. I use the MSFFB2 stick and the Default Trimming setting in the special tab. The default setting: Press and hold trimmer, move stick to desired position, release trimmer. Apparently the AP channels don't center on the new stick position but only "catch on" when the trim button is pressed down again. Hopefully I will have time to test this today and maybe upload a track. 
 
Is there anyone here that uses MSFFB2 (or any other force feedback joystick) who uses the other trimming system. (Where you need to just press the trimmer down to hold the stick in the desired place) It might be a work-around until they fix this. (As long as they acknowledge that the bug exists). 

Yes, I do keep the trimmer pressed when flying, and don't feel I have the behaviour you guys see. Pretty much stays where I put it after releasing. But I need to check again obviously, since I'm so used to keeping it pressed, so I just might not notice.
I have also tried with yaw channel on and off. If I move pedals slowly and try to step on the ball. It seems to work fairly well, but that might be related to having trim button depressed. I don't have rudder trim checked in specials though. So I'm not sure it's correct anyway, but it is different from the Hip for sure. At least for me.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

OK, I use a spring loaded centring stick (warthog) on the Default trimming setting so what you see I have no idea about.
There is no specific setting for FFB sticks? I thought default was for centring sticks.... but as you probably used it before it is probably a bug. 

Default is for FFB.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Lurker]

@MAXsenna the stick behaves like it should, everything looks like it's working perfectly in the ALT+ENTER control indicator window. It's just that the helicopter doesn't behave like it should, it's wobbling all over the place no matter how smooth my inputs, there is a lot of PIO (Pilot induced oscillations) a lot of crabbing and the YAW AP doesn't seem to center where I want it to. 

 

Please check out this video by VitMAX it describes the AP channel problems that seem to be related to trim it's in Russian so some observational skills are required

Watch as he depresses the trimmer, and what happens to the AP channels in the top right corner: 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Lurker

[Rogue Trooper]

I will check that on mine when I fly today.

[TomChaai]

3 hours ago, VitMax said:

A week ago PilotMi8 was a guest on a stream at VargTV, and somebody in the chat had asked him about this AP problem. PilotMi8 had explained that he doesn't use trim at all, since he has a stick with no centering spring, so he couldn't see the problem. He had promised that devs will look at it, and explained that AP implementation was made even before 3d model was ready for testing in the sim, so things might have broken down since then.

 

In Mi-24 pedals movement is dampened to provide a force for pilot to push against, but there are no centering forces at all. So, pedals just stay, where pilot had left them.

 

So the pedals don’t have force trim at least.

Still it may be necessary to enable the trimmer option, as many of us would like to use a springed pedal that can also work with other aircraft. 
A FFB pedal is the final solution, but I don’t see anyone selling those on the market and even if there are, it will be very expensive. 

[Clogger]

Below is thread I made describing the issues and difficulties I am finding with the current implementation of how the pedals work in the Hind. 

 

I don't have an issues flying around with all the AP channels on, I find you just have to be smooth. The problems are when I am turning off Yaw AP or taking over from the AI pilot really.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Clogger

[Rogue Trooper]

9 hours ago, Lurker said:

@MAXsenna the stick behaves like it should, everything looks like it's working perfectly in the ALT+ENTER control indicator window. It's just that the helicopter doesn't behave like it should, it's wobbling all over the place no matter how smooth my inputs, there is a lot of PIO (Pilot induced oscillations) a lot of crabbing and the YAW AP doesn't seem to center where I want it to. 

 

Please check out this video by VitMAX it describes the AP channel problems that seem to be related to trim it's in Russian so some observational skills are required

Watch as he depresses the trimmer, and what happens to the AP channels in the top right corner: 

 

 

Yes I could reproduce this on the Pitch AP.

I flew the MI-8 as a comparison and once trimmed to take off in hover (stick back and right of centre), the AP does indeed stay above the half way point on the pitch AP indicator.

The Hind in comparison, when trimmed to hover (stick way back and right), The pitch AP  always seems to go below the half way point like the video shows.

It is like the AP is pulling back with you.

Whether this is correct or a bug I do not know, in actual use I find nothing about it to hinder a perfect Hover in the Hind.... However it may cause problems when rushing into a flare stop.

 

In forward flight the Hind's pitch AP behaves the same as the MI-8 pitch AP. The Roll APs are identical in behaviour. 

 

For Thrustmaster warthog users: 

Use the Target software to analyze your joystick zero points, if your stick naturally leans to the right or in any other direction (I.e. A centred stick is NOT ZERO) then this will be seen as a right input every time you click trim our Russian choppers. It is very important to recalibrate your joystick with the Thrustmaster recalibration tool to get a perfect 0 in the X and y axis.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[zerO_crash]

I seem to have a FFB-issue specifically with the Hind. Sometimes when I trim in the Hind using the trimmer button, I will get a weird feedback bug where the stick applies full force from one of the sides. It’s easy to replicate, basically use the click-trim method and click the trim often. It’s really weird, and doesn’t happen in any of the other helicopters or planes.