General late game B model question

[AH_Solid_Snake]

Since we've got a reasonable number of F-14 aficionados here I thought i'd mine for someone that knows more than me.

 

Were the late B models (basically at the point of retirement in 2004+) essentially D models less the APG-71 and IRST pod, or were there remaining detail differences in capability?

 

For that matter, were the A models similar? I've seen that all models going back to the A's that were still in service were fitted up with the DFCS for example, so they seem to be comparable in capability to the D / B except for, in addition, the engine and HUD?

 

Are there any good sources out there that lay out clearly all the various capability modifications with a little Y / N for whether a given model received it?

[BreaKKer]

There's a document out there that talks about the training program for the F-14A/B/D that goes through all the differences. I won't link it here, but that's where you can find a lot.

The F-14D had a bit more than just the APG-71 and the IRST

[Home Fries]

Once the Tomcat was known to be on the chopping block, NAVAIR didn't put money into upgrades (with possible exception of the Sparrowhawk HUD, which we didn't have).  The B's we deployed with in 2000 were very similar to what we have in game, albeit with PTID instead of the fishbowl.  We also had the 40k LANTIRN, but that was about it.

 

The D model is a different beast altogether.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

From what I know however by at least 2004 the B also had JDAM support? So there were some limited upgrades going on.

 

So yes I appreciate they retain different designations for a reason, I’m just trying to figure out what the differences looked like.

[Skysurfer]

Most late B's were B(U)'s - Upgrade with the PTID and Sparrowhawk HUD. Some squardons like VF-102 flew pretty much stock B's with the PTDI upgrade and some smaller stuff here and there. A lot also flew the A's until the end like VF-211, VF-14 etc. Most late jets also had DFCS.

 

Think of the D as almost like a completely new airplane - it had much better avionics, a lot of different infrastructure and a new radar.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Naquaii]

What we've identified as possible upgrades to add to an eventual F-14B(U) if we ever get enough data on them and feel it's worth the development time are (from the top of my head): the PTID, the Sparrowhawk HUD, the new navigational system with CDNU and EGI (ring-laser gyro), the DFCS (digital flight control-system) and better weapons and LANTIRN integration. (JDAMS would be included in this.)

 

All of those apart from the DFCS are interdependent and rely on each other so makes sense to do as a whole package. Some of the parts would work on their own, like the PTID but with much reduced functionality. This package would also add in the RWR display again as the additional 1553 bus allows for integration of the AN/ALR-67.

 

As it stands we're lacking a lot of information on primarily the PTID which makes it impossible in our view atm, and even if we got that information it's not a given. Personally I'd very much like to see it though!

[Skysurfer]

Would sure be awesome to have JDAM capability but also understandable if there is a lack of documentation on the PTID. Still think the OG Tomcats are the best looking and most fun to fly.  

[LanceCriminal86]

D model also had a different ECM suite as well. The vents on the jet above the NAVY stencils that have been pointed out are only on the D model and only on the right side, coincide with the electronics housed in that panel.

 

D also had OBOGS, which I do not believe the B models or A were ever upgraded with. I could be wrong though in the last few years of operation.

 

The D also had different ejection seats.

[sublime]

What was different structurally for the D?  The engines were the same right?  Same fuel load too?

[AH_Solid_Snake]

Structurally in terms of overall shape and G limits etc from what I can tell the A/B/D are identical. Earlier jets will have had the glove  vanes welded shut while later ones will just have never had them to begin with.

 

Fuel load and overall fuel cells configuration seems to be unchanged too.

There is an obvious empty weight creep which is probably accounted for with the changes in little black boxes.

 

[Naquaii]

Generally spoken the F-14B and F-14D differed loads in avionics and weapons systems but the general airframe, flight control and engines were very similar if not identical.

[Home Fries]

2 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

There is an obvious empty weight creep which is probably accounted for with the changes in little black boxes.

True.  One RIO I served with preferred the B to the D because of the slightly better performance.  The engines and airframes are near-identical, but the avionics in the D ate into the thrust to weight ratio.

[sublime]

Thanks all

[Katsu]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:30 AM, Naquaii said:

What we've identified as possible upgrades to add to an eventual F-14B(U) if we ever get enough data on them and feel it's worth the development time are (from the top of my head): the PTID, the Sparrowhawk HUD, the new navigational system with CDNU and EGI (ring-laser gyro), the DFCS (digital flight control-system) and better weapons and LANTIRN integration. (JDAMS would be included in this.)

 

All of those apart from the DFCS are interdependent and rely on each other so makes sense to do as a whole package. Some of the parts would work on their own, like the PTID but with much reduced functionality. This package would also add in the RWR display again as the additional 1553 bus allows for integration of the AN/ALR-67.

 

As it stands we're lacking a lot of information on primarily the PTID which makes it impossible in our view atm, and even if we got that information it's not a given. Personally I'd very much like to see it though!

 

You guys in future could sell it like the A-10C tank killer upgrade, i would think it's fair to pay for it, JDAM's will be a game changer in Tomcats A/G capability.

[Gentoo87]

On 7/11/2021 at 4:50 PM, Katsu said:

 

You guys in future could sell it like the A-10C tank killer upgrade, i would think it's fair to pay for it, JDAM's will be a game changer in Tomcats A/G capability.

I would as well

[QuiGon]

Has the A also been upgraded with JDAM capability or was it only the B and D that could drop them?

[AH_Solid_Snake]

From what I’ve gathered, no. The A models never received the upgraded AWG-15 nor the extra data bus, so remained more or less analog to the end less the DFCS.

[Skysurfer]

I would sure welcome a B(U) - as we alredy have liveries for the B which are B(U)'s. All depends on whether HB can get the needed info on the PTID, Sparrowhawk HUD and needed interface and changes. I could see it as a future expansion pack or even a standalone module for those who never liked the purely analogue and basically no HUD nature of the Tomcat (yes those people are out there lol).

[Donut]

2 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

I would sure welcome a B(U)

Meeeee tooooooo!  
 

Apart from the benefits of upgraded avionics, HUD especially... it would make for a more cohesive DCS and allow the Tomcat to more realistically participate alongside the Hornet, Viper, Warthog, etc.  Personally, I am more interested in simulating early to mid 2000's combat scenarios.

 

Also, the Tomcat is such a legend that it deserves nothing less than to be represented and remembered to the fullest if possible.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Donut

[Skysurfer]

3 hours ago, Donut said:

Meeeee tooooooo!  
 

Apart from the benefits of upgraded avionics, HUD especially... it would make for a more cohesive DCS and allow the Tomcat to more realistically participate alongside the Hornet, Viper, Warthog, etc.  Personally, I am more interested in simulating early to mid 2000's combat scenarios.

 

Also, the Tomcat is such a legend that it deserves nothing less than to be represented and remembered to the fullest if possible.

 

 

Well, yeah but the later you go the more classified stuff usually tends to get. Afaik. the reason why there isnt much of B(U) stuff out there is because of Iran potentially getting their hairy hands on it (meant as a joke by the way before the fairies get offended). I prefer the 70's and 80's stuff for DCS, or even earlier than that, since that tech is usually easier and more realistic to re-create accurately within the sim. It's also more fun when pilot skill and tactics matter more than various digital system crutches for SA and employment etc.
Ideally we'd also have the 14D but we all know this is not going to happen anytime soon or even ever. I personally love the legacy, non DFCS B the most as it's the most rewarding and powerful aircraft in terms of raw thrust to weight.

[kseremak]

On 7/2/2021 at 10:51 PM, Home Fries said:

True.  One RIO I served with preferred the B to the D because of the slightly better performance.  The engines and airframes are near-identical, but the avionics in the D ate into the thrust to weight ratio.

 

I've seen an empty mass of the F-14D and it was significantly bigger than the B and a lot bigger than the original A. Differences were measured in tons. The '80s B was the peak of performance.

Edited July 15, 2021 by kseremak

[Skysurfer]

Yup the D is quite a bit heavier. 

[BreaKKer]

[G.J.S]

40 minutes ago, BreaKKer said:

Those wing loadings are a little suspect? 
You can’t really compare them unless the aircraft are at the same weight, which would yield identical loadings for all the types, given the same square footage of wing. How come different values?

 

Empty weights would give 70.98lbs/sq ft. Max weight gives 127.43lbs/sq ft for the baseline A model.

Empty 73.94lbs/sq ft, and Max 131.59lbs/sq ft for the A+.

Empty 77.40lbs/sq ft, and Max 131.59lbs/sq ft for the D.

 

The values given in the table are for F-14s at different weights to each other, so it’s a useless comparison.

All told, just going by the table as shown, the A+ has slightly better throw away weight, for the same performance as the D.

Edited July 16, 2021 by G.J.S

[jcdata]

What was different structurally for the D?  The engines were the same right?  Same fuel load too?

All the same airframe... engine weight differrent.. the weights ballooned throughout the years because they Typically left the rails, racks, etc..

Think I am kidding?

Go to the f14a weight and start adding the weights to the ranks, stub, rails, pylons, etc... you'll see the base weight match the b and D..
In fact, IIRC, the NATOPS even cites what is included in the base weight. You'll see the stub and other items listed for the b and d.


F110 engines were shorter and needed longer extensions

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