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DCS Mi-24P feels very twitchy


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But look at how smoothly the real Hind stops the yaw movement as compared to what's possible ingame, there isn't this unstable yawing left & right after completing the 360 deg spin as in DCS, the real chopper just perfectly and smoothly settles. The DCS Hind really does appear a lot more nervous in flight than the real helicopter.

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You just have to anticipate better to end the spin, which is a matter of training.


Regarding any nervous movement of helos, we have to keep in mind that in the real thing the cyclic stick isn't only a short joystick but extending to the floor. This is why we have to use curves without hesitation. Those of us having a stick extension in their home cockpits will enjoy much better control performance...

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6 hours ago, Rongor said:

You just have to anticipate better to end the spin, which is a matter of training.


Regarding any nervous movement of helos, we have to keep in mind that in the real thing the cyclic stick isn't only a short joystick but extending to the floor. This is why we have to use curves without hesitation. Those of us having a stick extension in their home cockpits will enjoy much better control performance...

 

I understand, and I am using quite a bit of curve on all three axes. However despite this, as well as anticipating the end of the spin, I can't get it to be very smooth and precise.

 

I've been watching skilled DCS helo pilots take the Hind for a spin, and it seems quite twitchy even in their hands, even they seem to struggle with hovering it with any form of precision.

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Regarding my real world helo experience I'd say the most benefitting factor for sensual control inputs is a mix of 3D situational awareness and seat of the pants. Both are missing in our computers. It's no wonder and no shame we can't duplicate real world efficiency.

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17 minutes ago, Rongor said:

Regarding my real world helo experience I'd say the most benefitting factor for sensual control inputs is a mix of 3D situational awareness and seat of the pants. Both are missing in our computers. It's no wonder and no shame we can't duplicate real world efficiency.

 

Agreed. Which is why I believe it is so hard to get the flight models exactly right in any simulation and why it is difficult to detect and remove any errors in the flight model without extensive testing. I would ideally like to hear from some real world Hind pilots (I wonder if there are any on the russian boards) what they think of the DCS Hind. 

Like I said, I don't have anything to go by except my experiences in the Huey and the HiP, but something "feels" off in the Hind. The simple fact that so many are flying it with the AP Channels off should demonstrate that there is something wrong with them at the moment. 

 

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"Rocking horse" effect

The Trimmer seems to push the hind up  . I don't fly center stick fly default . 

I have Virpil with center cam and hard springs . If I'm stable and level in flight and trim surely I should stay in that position . But trim pushes hind up "Rocking horse" effect , Anyone else . 

Also Rudder can tip the Hind over while on the ground ,  IS that a real thing or move the joystick left or right and hind tips over .  . ?? 


Edited by KoN

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Yep I get this 'rocking horse' effect also when trying to fly around 150kmh S&L.

Was just doing the Deployment re-worked campaign and flying in formation with the other two Hinds on Mission 3 and as you are flying slow with small variations in pitch, the 'Stabilization System' starts rocking the nose up and down (shown by the trim indicator in the Pitch channel cycling up and down) - it is actually quite nauseating! Just solved by disabling the pitch channel and the rocking stops immediately. Trying to 'trim' out the channel using the trimmer button has mixed results due to the trim overrun situation, but even then after cancelling out the deflection, it will start rocking again in around 5-10 seconds. Increasing speed to 250+ish and it doesn't exhibit this 'rocking' behavior and you can hold a steady pitch.

I use a VKB full length floor mounted stick and minimal curves - have no issues holding the Hip steady in slow formation with Hueys etc.

 

Based on the SAS behavior and the trim overrun issues at the moment it is pretty clear ED have mixed up a few ones and zeroes in the code for the Hind SAS system, as the Hip has a similar system and doesn't have any of these issues.

 

Fingers crossed they get it sorted!


Edited by VampireNZ
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17 minutes ago, KoN said:

"Rocking horse" effect

The Trimmer seems to push the hind up  . I don't fly center stick fly default . 

I have Virpil with center cam and hard springs . If I'm stable and level in flight and trim surely I should stay in that position . But trim pushes hind up "Rocking horse" effect , Anyone else . 

I think I know what you mean. Currently I am also not convinced the trimmer is doing its job as usual here. The pause you have to return the stick to neutral seems shorter and often it feels as if there was a delayed input effect, which was actually read out during the time we center the controls. No idea.

 

 

17 minutes ago, KoN said:

Also Rudder can tip the Hind over while on the ground ,  IS that real thing or move the joystick left or right hind tips over .  . ?? 

The three point undercarriage naturally makes the Hind more prone to suffering from dynamic rollovers. Therefore yes, the tipping over makes sense physically. The question remains, how realistic the actual amount of tailrotor force in the sim is. I find that it's a good method to push the stick gently into the pedals direction can neutralize this risk.

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Pilots in demo videos you see aren't noobs. They're select. They make it look easy as the saying goes. 

 

There are some oscillations that seem to crop up occasionally that i'm unsure are actually inherent to the helicopter. At least a factory fresh one anyway. I've seen autopilots do some pretty weird stuff before so i'm unwilling to describe something like a "pot stirring" autopilot as necessarily "unrealistic". Not desirable I guess but clicking the autopilot off and then turning the various axes back on seems to solve it for me. I get why this isn't desirable but to me it's sort of amusing that a lot of the more challenging issues ED tends to face with their modules are-pretty real issues with systems in real airplanes lol.

 

 


Edited by DocHawkeye
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The MI24 seems fine, certainly not twitchy at all, if anything maybe a little soft but likely just the stability assist, so far a gem to fly, 👍🙃

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

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Posting this as an example of someone with a stick extension.  I have a floor mounted Warthog stick with 40cm gooseneck extension.  The Hind is as steady, stable, and rock solid as it gets with my setup.  Entering into a hover is painless and feels fully controlled.  Nothing about the helicopter is twitchy in any way, shape, or form (the weird over trim bug aside.)  Well, except maybe me sometimes.

 

I believe the issue is that by using curves at all you are sacrificing fine control at certain throws of your stick, removing a linear response and replacing it with a, well, curved one.  I flew normal stick for years up until about two months ago when I got my extension and the sheer fact of the matter is that curves aren't a proper way to do it from my experience.  You either learn to fly the helo curveless, accept that there is next to nothing you can do about your tiny stick throw area (and thus lack of fine control) or upgrade.  There's no comparison at all, curves are not fixing this issue they're exacerbating it, especially in maneuvers that involve any sort of even moderately wide stick throws.

 

I hate to say it, but someone needs to.  The run of the mill desk mounted joystick has many of the same issues with helos that the Xbox controller player has when trying to fly fixed wing.  Is it possible to fly the helo and be effective?  Certainly.  The amount of fine control required and concentration is absolutely heroic compared to a full extension though.  Even the lightest bump or smallest movement of your wrist can throw you off your aim.  I sort of compare it to writing with a pencil.  Desk mounted sticks are like trying to write legible cursive with a pencil that's more eraser than anything else and can no longer be sharpened, while a full stick is well, a full sized new pencil.

 

The only stand out I found was a trick with the Gazelle that I sort of tweaked from VSTerminus' video on it.  I tried this with the Mi-8 as well before I got my extension. You may consider desaturating your pitch and roll cyclic axis a small amount (10-20.)  In the gaz it makes it much more controllable, while in the Hip it made it feel syrupy (flip side, it made the Huey feel unresponsive taking just a sliver off.)  A much smoother, less twitchy experience, maybe.  The cost is your maximum stick throw is reeled in, so you can no longer push the cyclic to its limits.  Not that most folks need to regularly do that.  I tried that with both a CH Fighterstick and my unextended Warthog stick, both of which handled it well and made the already pretty smooth Mi-8 feel even more controllable.  I would have continued to experiment with it, but the extension removed the need.  Your mileage may vary.

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I sort of agree with Fenin. However, I still think that there is something here worth looking at. Since the AP channels seem to work flawlessly in the HIP but for some reason require a lot more finesse in the HIND. Maybe it really is down to stick throw, however would the HIP and HIND have such a drastic difference in the cyclic stick throw? (I mean in the real helicopters?)

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I sort of agree with Fenin. However, I still think that there is something here worth looking at. Since the AP channels seem to work flawlessly in the HIP but for some reason require a lot more finesse in the HIND. Maybe it really is down to stick throw, however would the HIP and HIND have such a drastic difference in the cyclic stick throw? (I mean in the real helicopters?)

 

Perhaps it has something to do with the trimmer bug?  Maybe its putting in false information into the AP channels then the player uses the beep trim to fix their attitude without it effecting the AP channel input.   I know I've found little issue with the AP Channels, but I don't use beep trimming very often (honestly forget it can a lot of the time 😛 ) That should be at least moderately testable on user end.  Personally I fly with just roll and pitch on and ignore yaw AP entirely and never really notice any issues with those two.  I've used the other channels for cruising and never had much issue with them either, but admittedly I didn't do much more than fly straight across Cyprus.

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23 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

What bothers me the most is the sensitivity of the controls and lack of smoothness & precision during maneuvers, esp. at low speed. 

 

My expectations were based on watching real life demos, such as this one:

 

In this demo, and others, control appears so smooth and precise, and the aircraft appears incredibly stable. i

 

I can't hope to repeat those maneuvers in the DCS Mi-24, it's just too twittchy & nervous. esp. during hovering and at low forward speed.

 

 

I'm feeling the exact same thing on my end. I've tried many different settings, curves, trimmer option, mix of different settings + different curves, AP channels on and off, nothing does it. 

 

The only way i was able to feel stable and precise at takeoff, hover and low speed was by enabling the control helper (Noob option) in the special settings tab. That was literally the greatest thing, but the big downpart to using that is how it makes the chopper feel kinda arcadish in its flight model and restrains you from using full deflections in the axis', you're for example unable to do a full roll in any ways. In a way i was happy gaining on the smoothness and stability at takeoff, hover and low speed, but didn't really like downgrade of the full axis usage, inability to do hard manoeuvers basically.

 

So yeah, great to hear that some people with extreme precision hardware are having no issue what so ever, but it seems that a lot of people not owning those expensive dedicated hardware are having big difficulties getting the chopper to fly precise and stable at those 3 different flight stages. 

 

I'm still hoping for a way to get it improved, after all the tweaking i've done, i don't see how else i could fix it all.

When i have the motivation i'll try and do a complete overview of my options, tracks showing the flights etc. But until then, hopefully something is found/changed that can help all the ones in the same situation.

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I find once I feel the weight of the chopper after wheels up she is stable in the hover... very stable.

But off course I am constantly adjusting but this is what chopper pilots do.

 

I find I can hold a precise hover better than the Huey or MI-8.

I do not know why but I feel there is much more modelling here than the older modules.

 

(no curves on my 10cm extended Hawg).

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The only stand out I found was a trick with the Gazelle that I sort of tweaked from VSTerminus' video on it.  I tried this with the Mi-8 as well before I got my extension. You may consider desaturating your pitch and roll cyclic axis a small amount (10-20.) Where is this . 

I wonder what Wags is using to get stable flight . If using warthog them sticks have a Heavy spring . And i mean heavy .

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4 hours ago, KoN said:

The only stand out I found was a trick with the Gazelle that I sort of tweaked from VSTerminus' video on it.  I tried this with the Mi-8 as well before I got my extension. You may consider desaturating your pitch and roll cyclic axis a small amount (10-20.) Where is this . 

I wonder what Wags is using to get stable flight . If using warthog them sticks have a Heavy spring . And i mean heavy .

Funny enough, that base spring is no where near strong enough for a 40cm extension.  The stick flops around loosely and can't hold a center.  Even the one the guy sells that's much stronger is borderline not strong enough for the gooseneck, and I have to put a slight back stick deadzone. 🙃

 

As for the saturation it's Saturation Y for both pitch and roll axis on your stick in your axis config (same place you set curves.)  Don't touch Sat X on either, just Y.  I suggest putting it down to like 80% saturation and then working your way up or down from there.  Understand it will mean that you'll need larger stick throws for stuff like taking off or entering a hover, so it will mess with your muscle memory in the short term.


Edited by Fenin
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The reason I don't believe in the "it's your control setup" theory, is that I don't have any of these issues in the other choppers. They are nowhere near as unstable in pitch and yaw, or as hard to hover smoothly & precisely, and there's not this awful rocking behavior that I've never seen the real Hind exhibit. 

 

Let's keep in mind that the Mi-24 is in EA, so there's a pretty good chance the FM is far from finalized. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

The reason I don't believe in the "it's your control setup" theory, is that I don't have any of these issues in the other choppers. They are nowhere near as unstable in pitch and yaw, or as hard to hover smoothly & precisely, and there's not this awful rocking behavior that I've never seen the real Hind exhibit. 

 

Let's keep in mind that the Mi-24 is in EA, so there's a pretty good chance the FM is far from finalized. 

 

 

 

 

Your mileage may vary. 😃  My Hind is the most solid helo, pitch yaw hover or otherwise, that I've flown in dcs short of the Ka-50.  I'm able to make 4km rocket beaten zones and killing the soft targets within pretty regularly.  There in lies the reason and logic behind why you're being told its your controls.  Speaking just for myself, she's just not doing what you're describing.

 

By all means, the aircraft is EA and the FM is far from finalized, but can you think of some reason why my experience would differ so heavily from yours?  Maybe run a repair?

 

We can even take one of my short youtube videos of me launching a Spiral at a Gepard, I was stable enough to dodge fire and hold the sight on the target.  Forgive me for the awful quality, running on rural US internet.  Of course, keep in mind that Tacview isn't a perfect representation, the models in tacview are blown up to be more visible, all that stuff.

 

 

 

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Fenin I'm not talking about stability when going at 250 km/h, I'm talking about stability at much lower speeds, and esp. during hover. 

 

Your tacview vid doesn't demonstrate anything contrary to what I've said. First of all because you're doing a fast strafing attack, secondly because we don't get an ingame cockpit view. 

 

As for doing a repair, not sure why you think that's going to solve anything. 

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I'm not saying it well enough, clearly.  She is rock solid for me in all flight regimes.  From a hover, low speed flight, low speed side strafing, all of it.  Rock solid and steady as can be.  There has never been a time, with the autopilot roll and pitch channels on, that I have ever felt anything remotely unstable that wasn't entirely introduced by myself.  Trimmer bug aside. 

 

We share the same game version and the same flight model but seem to be getting vastly different experiences.  What's different? 🙃  The only things I can think of is your hardware, and the meat computers are different models.   While I'm unable to upload video, you could come sit in my front seat for a bit some time if you like, I'd be happy to zoom you around and do some rocket attacks.  Maybe we could figure something out.  Toss me a PM and I'll toss you my discord, we'll piddle around on 4ya or something for an hour or two.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fenin said:

I'm not saying it well enough, clearly.  She is rock solid for me in all flight regimes.  From a hover, low speed flight, low speed side strafing, all of it.  Rock solid and steady as can be.  There has never been a time, with the autopilot roll and pitch channels on, that I have ever felt anything remotely unstable that wasn't entirely introduced by myself.  Trimmer bug aside. 

 

We share the same game version and the same flight model but seem to be getting vastly different experiences.  What's different? 🙃  The only things I can think of is your hardware, and the meat computers are different models.   While I'm unable to upload video, you could come sit in my front seat for a bit some time if you like, I'd be happy to zoom you around and do some rocket attacks.  Maybe we could figure something out.  Toss me a PM and I'll toss you my discord, we'll piddle around on 4ya or something for an hour or two.

 

 

 

Have you flown the Huey? Have you flown the Mi8? Compared to them the Hind feels dangerous to fly. I can't describe it any other way. I am seeing the same behavior that Hummingbird is describing. However maybe he is not describing it as well as he could. I don't think the helicopter is "unstable" it flies well enough, in a straight line. However during any cyclic\pedal maneuvres with all the AP channels on, it feels like the AP is fighting my inputs. I can not get the precision I want. Which is completely contrary to what every single report on the Hind's legendary abilities entails. There is also a tendency for pilot induced oscillations in this chopper that I've not seen in the Mi8. 

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vor 34 Minuten schrieb Lurker:

However during any cyclic\pedal maneuvres with all the AP channels on, it feels like the AP is fighting my inputs. I can not get the precision I want.

I think we found the problem. You are using the AP channels. They are probably WIP cause in their current state i think that they cause more problems than they solve. 

 

Yaw AP might be correct and it is just not my thing, but the pitch AP has an oscillation problem that is most obvious at 150 kmh, but I have also experienced it during hover taxi.

 

Try turning off all AP channels and see if it still feels so weird for you. When I forgot to turn them off during a hot start, I usually recognize it really fast because of the weird input response of the hind. So give it a try. 

 

There is also a switch to turn off the yaw damper, but that makes the yaw inputs extremely sensitive, which requires a lot more concentration during a hover if you want to keep your nose steady.

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Turning off stability augmentation systems is not a solution, that's a workaround. Until this is acknowledged as an actual bug by Eagle Dynamics all I am doing by turning them off is using the helicopter in a way that it was not meant to be used in real life. 

 

*edit*

What we really need is access to the Mi24P manual. One that accurately describes the AP stability systems, their interaction with trim, and how they are supposed to be used while operating the helicopter. Until we get those, we have nothing to go on. No comparisons to make really and all we are doing is figuring things out as we go, and probably building bad habits (such as flying with the AP channels off)


Edited by Lurker

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Lurker:

I'm sorry but turning off stability augmentation systems is not a solution, that's a workaround. Until this is acknowledged as an actual bug by Eagle Dynamics all I am doing by turning them off is using the helicopter in a way that it was not meant to be used in Real Life. 

Well, if you want to restrict yourself to real life procedures, I can understand and accept that. However, could you at least give it a try and report back if it gets better without the AP channels? I mean it is still all WIP and it might help to understand where your problem comes from and to find possible bugs in the AP implementation. In the end, the APs job is to make the pilots life easier, not worse.


Edited by Wychmaster
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