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Proposed ED Carrier…?


rkk01

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So, WW2 Pacific definitely needs carriers…

 

With Magnitude 3 doing the Essex class, ED must surely be looking at what to offer alongside the speculated F6F…

 

I suspect a Yorktown class is the most likely (Enterprise…? or all 3)

 

But, as unlikely as it might seem, I’d also strongly advocate for a RN Illustrious class carrier….

(would fit Pacific, Atlantic and Med theatres)

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I believe Leatherneck Ent is planning a period correct Essex class carrier to release with it's F4U Corsair.

http://leatherneck-sim.com/2021/06/25/2021-summer-update/?bx_sender_conversion_id=38644491&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=mail&utm_campaign=weekend_news

They mention that the Corsair will ship with the full inventory of British and American ordnance - so maybe there is some hope 🙂

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1 hour ago, Oozler said:

I believe Leatherneck Ent is planning a period correct Essex class carrier to release with it's F4U Corsair.

http://leatherneck-sim.com/2021/06/25/2021-summer-update/?bx_sender_conversion_id=38644491&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=mail&utm_campaign=weekend_news

They mention that the Corsair will ship with the full inventory of British and American ordnance - so maybe there is some hope 🙂

 

Yep, that’s what I posted…

 

If the Essex is covered, what should ED bring to the party…

 

… ie, they have “Super Carrier” for modern ops - so what would be the equivalent ED “WW2 Feet Carrier” to a similar level of tech.

 

Can’t see that ED would leave Pacific solely to a 3rd party dev, and they surely won’t do another Essex class.

 

So, Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet??

 

As a Brit I’d prefer Illustrious, Formidable, Indomitable and Victorious, but you couldn’t ask for a more famous trio than those three USN carriers


Edited by rkk01
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2 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

 

Yep, that’s what I posted…

 

If the Essex is covered, what should ED bring to the party…

 

… ie, they have “Super Carrier” for modern ops - so what would be the equivalent ED “WW2 Feet Carrier” to a similar level of tech.

 

Can’t see that ED would leave Pacific solely to a 3rd party dev

ED has none talk yet about a SC expansion to WW2 or a new "WW2 Carrier" module.

 

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3 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

ED has none talk yet about a SC expansion to WW2 or a new "WW2 Carrier" module.

 

 

Very true…

 

… but WW2 Pacific needs carriers to make any sense at all…

 

Why make a backdated Marianas map and float ideas of an F6F without your own carrier module??

 

of course, though, I’ll be happy enough if the carrier ships with the Hellcat 👍

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rkk01, while I fully agree with and support your request for a carrier to go along with the possible F6F from ED, know that the Enterprise, CV-6, is the only Yorktown class CV that ever saw the Hellcat operate off it's flight deck. The Yorktown, Hornet and Wasp were all sunk before the Hellcat became operational. Personally, I would like to see one of the Light carriers modeled, if for no other reason than they are fairly forgotten in the sim world and their flight decks weren't much larger than a Jeep carrier, which would be fairly challenging. The CVLs' air groups usually consisted of F6Fs and TBMs and would IMHO be a unique and challenging addition to the DCS World's WWII PTO. 👍

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11 hours ago, AG-51_Razor said:

rkk01, while I fully agree with and support your request for a carrier to go along with the possible F6F from ED, know that the Enterprise, CV-6, is the only Yorktown class CV that ever saw the Hellcat operate off it's flight deck. The Yorktown, Hornet and Wasp were all sunk before the Hellcat became operational. Personally, I would like to see one of the Light carriers modeled, if for no other reason than they are fairly forgotten in the sim world and their flight decks weren't much larger than a Jeep carrier, which would be fairly challenging. The CVLs' air groups usually consisted of F6Fs and TBMs and would IMHO be a unique and challenging addition to the DCS World's WWII PTO. 👍


Quite right, and the reason I “landed” on Enterprise as a potential option… the famous class mates don’t fit the Hellcat era but would be a fantastic addition to the game (and a good reason to look at Wildcat, Devastator and Dauntless etc…)

 

I suppose my starting point was

 

- why would ED leave the field open to 3rd parties… especially having developed the CV module tech for supercarrier 

 

- and if it follows that there needs to be an ED WW2 “supercarrier equivalent… then which???

 

A CVL or CVE would be an interesting, and very challenging proposition… Bogue class were operated by the RN with a full suite of carrier aircraft (there seems to be some debate as to whether USN operated Corsairs from CVEs)

 

Alternatively - an Illustrious class carrier would be a really good fit.  All 4 class members had an impressive combat record, with Victorious even joining US Carrier Division 1 with Saratoga - as USS Robin…

… and the British Pacific Fleet carved out a (relatively little known) name for themselves during 1945


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rkk01, we are definitely in total agreement! However, there should be no debate whatsoever about Corsairs being operated off of CVE's in WWII and again, in an even bigger way, during the Korean War. The only discrepancy is that it was the Marines that flew them off the Jeeps, not the Navy. Maybe it had something to do with the size or composition of their testicals?? 🤣  but most likely it was an upper management decision.

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I mean lets be real ED needs to add a Zero, at least as an AI, not the reskinned FW190's like in the trailer...

 

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I'm not positive about this but I think that I read somewhere that M3 LLC was hinting at some AI opposition assets coming out with their Corsair. Absent this being a real thing, I totally agree with you Harlikwin!! They (ED) have indicated that they are going to release a WWII version of their Marianas map and if that is also a real thing, why do that without an intention to populate it with WWII assets - specifically PTO assets. 👍

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16 hours ago, AG-51_Razor said:

I'm not positive about this but I think that I read somewhere that M3 LLC was hinting at some AI opposition assets coming out with their Corsair. Absent this being a real thing, I totally agree with you Harlikwin!! They (ED) have indicated that they are going to release a WWII version of their Marianas map and if that is also a real thing, why do that without an intention to populate it with WWII assets - specifically PTO assets. 👍

 

TBH, I'm not even sure why they bothered with the modern map, its not really relevant at all for Cold war stuff, or modern stuff since we don't have and won't get any modern Chinese assets, and even then it likely wouldn't be in play beyond long range missile attacks.

 

WW2 OTOH, thats a good map and a good idea. But yeah, needs a ton of actual assets to make it work. I hope that M3 gives us some of that and ED puts up their fair share.

 

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17 hours ago, AG-51_Razor said:

I'm not positive about this but I think that I read somewhere that M3 LLC was hinting at some AI opposition assets coming out with their Corsair. Absent this being a real thing, I totally agree with you Harlikwin!! They (ED) have indicated that they are going to release a WWII version of their Marianas map and if that is also a real thing, why do that without an intention to populate it with WWII assets - specifically PTO assets. 👍

 

M3 has put some of AI assets on your Newsletters:
https://leatherneck-sim.com/2020/05/20/crouching-update/
https://leatherneck-sim.com/2021/06/25/2021-summer-update/

Essex_001.jpg

F4U-1D_Assests_001.jpg

F4U-1D_Assests_002.jpg

 

The only not show yet:

- More UsNavy and IJN/A aircrafts
- Us Marine and commonwealth Vehicles.

- None Us Marine Soldier, commonwealth troops and IJN/A soldiers.
- Other assets as fortifications 


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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yeah this seems like a massive undertaking for just one team. IDK, at a minimum I'd want a few kinds of Japanese fighters and at least one AI Japanese carrier, not to mention stuff like destoryers/cruisers/etc.

 

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23 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

TBH, I'm not even sure why they bothered with the modern map, its not really relevant at all for Cold war stuff, or modern stuff since we don't have and won't get any modern Chinese assets, and even then it likely wouldn't be in play beyond long range missile attacks.

 

WW2 OTOH, thats a good map and a good idea. But yeah, needs a ton of actual assets to make it work. I hope that M3 gives us some of that and ED puts up their fair share.

 

Up until I destroyed my gaming machine I was enjoying the modern Marianas. No there's not a lot of realistic scenarios but its a play ground for helicopters, C-101, L-39, F-5, Mig-19, and 21. Unfortunately there's not really the red naval assets to fight off a Chinese or Russian invasion. I'd say the better scenario to put the F-18 and F-14 into play is to say its already been taken by the Chinese, load of Anderson with JF-17s and send a carrier/amphib group to take it back.

 

Modern stuff aside though Mag 3 did show a very detailed zero rendering. They're definitely doing and ai. Hopefully they will bring it to a full module.

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5 hours ago, Jester986 said:

Up until I destroyed my gaming machine I was enjoying the modern Marianas. No there's not a lot of realistic scenarios but its a play ground for helicopters, C-101, L-39, F-5, Mig-19, and 21. Unfortunately there's not really the red naval assets to fight off a Chinese or Russian invasion. I'd say the better scenario to put the F-18 and F-14 into play is to say its already been taken by the Chinese, load of Anderson with JF-17s and send a carrier/amphib group to take it back.

 

Modern stuff aside though Mag 3 did show a very detailed zero rendering. They're definitely doing and ai. Hopefully they will bring it to a full module.

 

Yeah, the "realistic" (no don't laugh they aren't) scenarios are: 

 

1. "China" or maybe "russia" invades. You've got the Kuz which can be a stand in for the Liaoning, along with the SU-33, and the Chinese asset pack destroyers. You can probably simulate some level of bombardment from ICMB's/CM's on the islands, again using Russian units for Chinese. You'd have to leave it almost undefended for that to work.

 

2. The aftermath of that scenario where you have China/Russia holding the islands and the glorious USN/USMC coming to take it back.

 

Problems in both cases are "timeframe" If you assume china its post 2015 or so with 1 shitty carrier and semi functional J-15's. But now you don't have any "modern" USN units (i.e. Super hornets) to take it back. Or you can walk it back to the late 90's or early 2000's where in some fantasy world Russia is the baddy with the same problems overall, but at least the F18C and F14B kinda fit. Maybe the SU didn't loose the cold war and the US collapsed economically under Billy Clintoon and there were no F14D's.

At any rate any "modern" scenario in the marianas strains credulity pretty hard. And thats not getting into how terrible the actual "naval modeling" in DCS is.

 

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Was scrolling through the WW2 Assets Pack sub earlier and NL mentioned 2 WW2 maps in dev, with one planned to be free, but with a modern version…

 

In hindsight, Channel and Marianas… but the clear implication was that Marianas started life as a WW2 map.  
 

Makes me wonder whether the plan was always to have a WW2 Carrier battles / island hopping / turkey shoot environment and maybe Covid prompted a backpedal and re-think… esp re research travel for the numerous assets required???

 

Marianas modern works as a fallback if you theorise a modern tropical flashpoint for the already in-game assets

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22 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

Was scrolling through the WW2 Assets Pack sub earlier and NL mentioned 2 WW2 maps in dev, with one planned to be free, but with a modern version…

 

In hindsight, Channel and Marianas… but the clear implication was that Marianas started life as a WW2 map.  
 

Makes me wonder whether the plan was always to have a WW2 Carrier battles / island hopping / turkey shoot environment and maybe Covid prompted a backpedal and re-think… esp re research travel for the numerous assets required???

 

Marianas modern works as a fallback if you theorise a modern tropical flashpoint for the already in-game assets

 

I mean the "modern" Marianas map is about as credible as "tropic thunder" its not a fallback. You have to be living in fantasy land to think its "relevant" to modern ops for the last 50years. I "might" be relevant in the next 10-20, but we will never see a JSF Vs J20 fight in DCS till 2090 or what not. 

 

WW2 Marianas, absolutely relevant. And that is what ED should have put their effort into.

 

 

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I think the Marianas was the ideal choice for the next  “free” map.

The map we have now is relevant for the modern assets we have. And the map can be modified for WWII. So everyone wins.


I totally agree that it is difficult to build modern scenarios around. But I can see why ED chose the Marianas and I’m glad they did.

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I think this is a surprisingly broad and fundamental question further up the chain. I believe this is talking about Pacific assets in general. Doesn't sound like the cost could be absorbed into the WW2 assets pack to be honest, it was never in the design scope and splitting the asset pack into two era's, with the existing one quite saturated leaves the ugly question of DLC, which is probably why ED don't want to talk about it, because DLC is a super tricky item to discuss or execute on.


Having said that, the rate at which it takes to make detailed models and the cost per unit is beyond what most people comprehend. The wages has to be paid for from somewhere. On the balance of it - I'd rather it was DLC'd then you know its resourced and covered, but I dont really want that solution as it will and has time on time fragmented the servers to make them more unpopular. I can't really think of a good solution, but I want this as much as anyone else - WW2 naval battles were my absolute favourite.

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50 minutes ago, Pikey said:

I think this is a surprisingly broad and fundamental question further up the chain. I believe this is talking about Pacific assets in general. Doesn't sound like the cost could be absorbed into the WW2 assets pack to be honest, it was never in the design scope and splitting the asset pack into two era's, with the existing one quite saturated leaves the ugly question of DLC, which is probably why ED don't want to talk about it, because DLC is a super tricky item to discuss or execute on.


Having said that, the rate at which it takes to make detailed models and the cost per unit is beyond what most people comprehend. The wages has to be paid for from somewhere. On the balance of it - I'd rather it was DLC'd then you know its resourced and covered, but I dont really want that solution as it will and has time on time fragmented the servers to make them more unpopular. I can't really think of a good solution, but I want this as much as anyone else - WW2 naval battles were my absolute favourite.


It seems there are some people that just won’t buy the existing assets pack on principal, but as you say the stuff is needed and the developers have to eat.

 

I remember the Maddox team refusing requests for AI models saying they would only produce models for flyable aircraft as they could be monetarised. IL2 never had a lot of AI only aircraft. It’s pretty obvious that the DCS WW2 scene remains smalltime compared to the market for more modern stuff. Many don’t like to accept it but if we’re going to see credible WW2 missions created then that’s going to require a shed load of models and we’re going to have to pay… somehow.

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I think WW2 is even more complex as, on the surface, ~25% of people have "dabbled" looking at the modules owned in a recent survey. ED are getting a lot faster at turning the warbirds out, It's potentially more profitable (sorry for the uncited reference, but I'm sure I am paraphrasing past comments from ED)

WW2 is also higher up the authenticity tree  in many places due to the more simplisitic and non secret nature of the era and has played catchup with the 90's units pretty well considering the headstart the core sim had on it. It's always going to be slow going, but I think they've done really well with WW2, it's even got bleeding edge damage modelling and AI, in some ways its looking better than the main event.

If only we can get 3D modellers and artists to grow on trees. Maybe 'bundles' is a way forward.

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1 hour ago, Pikey said:

I think WW2 is even more complex as, on the surface, ~25% of people have "dabbled" looking at the modules owned in a recent survey. ED are getting a lot faster at turning the warbirds out, It's potentially more profitable (sorry for the uncited reference, but I'm sure I am paraphrasing past comments from ED)

WW2 is also higher up the authenticity tree  in many places due to the more simplisitic and non secret nature of the era and has played catchup with the 90's units pretty well considering the headstart the core sim had on it. It's always going to be slow going, but I think they've done really well with WW2, it's even got bleeding edge damage modelling and AI, in some ways its looking better than the main event.

If only we can get 3D modellers and artists to grow on trees. Maybe 'bundles' is a way forward.


We haven’t had a WW2 release for a year, I wouldn’t say things are cracking along. Yes DCS WW2 needs more interest from 3rd party developers, I don’t think anyone would argue with that. 

 

As you say when there’s more flyable modules maybe it’ll be time for a “BOB pack”, “defence of the Reich” pack etc with a flyable and AI bundled together.

 

With modern stuff ED are limited by secrecy, with WW2 you are still limited but by reference availability and quality. 

 


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