DDR5 Performance Discussion

[Krupi]

Hi Chaps, 

 

I couldn't find a discussion on this so I thought I would start one. 

 

I was looking to build a new PC this year (5600 with a 3080/6900) however due to the obvious this has been nigh on impossible, I for one don't want to support scalpers. 

 

With the crackdown of crypto in China things are looking up for GPU stocks. However between my planned new build I have upgraded my current PC with 32GB RAM and a 2TB NVME SSD. With these upgrades I can now run my Reverb G2 at 70% SS in SteamVR and achieve a reasonable performance of 40-45fps (Frametimes GPU ~19ms and CPU ~15ms TBC). 

 

I am quite happy with these results for the moment and with Vulkan implementation approaching I am left to dwell on what to do. Namely upgrade to current gen or hold off for Zen 4 and Alder Lake both of which will use the new DDR5. 

 

So the question is what if any performance increase will DDR5 bring, from the reading I have done I get the impression there could be a performance increase however it is up to the software engineers to take advantage of this rather than a base increase in performance? 

 

The other factor is of course price, new tech = high price. I could upgrade now and in 5 years when I come to upgrade DDR5 should be more common and cheaper (or knowing my luck DDR6 RAM will be just about to drop).

 

Please correct me if my current understanding is off. 

 

Regards, 

Krupi 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Krupi

[LucShep]

I'll start by comenting on the GPUs and the crackdown of crypto in China.
Yes, things will eventually get better, but make no mistake - that'll take a LOT longer than most want to antecipate (currently a very trendy way for techtubers to get views).
The big mining farms (which cause most troubles) will likely just migrate somewhere else, where the problem is mitigated and get back to it again - there'll stilll be profit to make from it.
Even if there is a flood of GPUs on the used market (which I suspect, there won't be), prices will still be high (though not as high as has been) for quite sometime. There's too many hungry buyers who've waited for months on end, so business here will be by the gazillion.

Same thing for better available stock on new GPU products, both online and regular, physical stores. Prices will still be high here because there'll still be too much demand.
Also, because people have shown that they are willing to pay ridiculous money for GPUs, manufacturers know they can get away with it and keep that trend (of stupid prices), almost sure to continue.

 

Now on the the DDR5 RAM, versus DDR4.
Although the former is expected to be faster, it isn't expected to be so much faster that it makes the latter obsolete overnight. 
Initial modules of DDR5 will be, in practice, on par (speed and latency wise) with fast kits of DDR4, but at a higher price (and remember the law of diminishing returns, early adopters and all that jazz...).
It's at a certain point, where the tech is more mature, along with faster, better CPUs, that we'll see the true increase in performance and justification to jump on it.
So, just like before with DDR2, DDR3 and DDR4. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by LucShep

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Personally, if you're happy with the performance you're currently getting with your G2, I'd hold off and see what Vulkan brings first. 

1. The first iteration of Vulkan will likely have issues that will take time to get ironed out.

2. I expect the first iterations of DDR5 to not bring much - if any - noticeable performance increase compared to current high-end DDR4. It will likely take a few years for the true potential of DDR5 to truly show itself. It will also depend on the application itself: not everything is (potentially) bottlenecked by memory bandwith.

[Krupi]

Valid points raised, thanks chaps.

 

Regarding GPU I don't expect to see them in stock until perhaps the end of the year and even then I agree the price will still be far higher than what was original listed. 

 

I recall watching a video a few months back that suggested that at least the first generation of DDR5 capable Motherboards would also support DDR4 as stocks and general uptake might be low.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Krupi

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, daniellechams said:

I think this is a dumb question, but I want to check before dismissing this. A guy just suggested I get DDR5 system (ie not graphics) RAM to run a game I play. DDR5 isn’t available as system RAM with current consumer processors, right?

There is Intel "Alder Lake" 12th gen which, if with a compatible/capable DDR5 motherboard, can use DDR5 RAM.

But, at this point and so far, DDR5 RAM is not worth for gaming. DDR4 RAM is still the better choice, because you'd pay ~200% for DDR5 for just a 3% (yes, three percent) of advantage over common DDR4 low latency kits.
So, again as of today, it makes no sense for gaming.

If in doubt, plenty articles that have explained, compared and benchmarked one against the other:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-ddr4-vs-ddr5/

https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/luke-hill/ddr4-vs-ddr5-intel-core-i9-12900k-testing/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wQ9MGrTvwc&t=316s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvo__2taug&t=407s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIN8lLhSqmg&t=1058s

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by LucShep

[Hiob]

8 minutes ago, LucShep said:

But, at this point and so far, DDR5 RAM is not worth for gaming, DDR4 RAM is still the better choice because you'd pay ~200% for DDR5 for just a 3% (yes, three percent) of advantage over common DDR4 low latency kits.

 

And those 3% are only even a thing in very special memory intense application. Certainly not in DCS. In DCS you barely notice if XMP is enabled or not.
With DDR4 you had vastly diminishing returns beyond 3200 MHz. I strongly doubt, that that has changed with DDR5.

I repeat myself here, but: Don't overspend on memory. Buy a bigger ssd or a better cooler for that money.

[BitMaster]

I wouldnt say it vastly diminishes beyond 3200 per se.

There are many reviews that show how fps can go up&down with MHz and Latency and the bottom line in 90% of all reviews past few years, DDR4-3600MHz CL16.

Also, rather 64GB 3200CL16 than 32GB 3600CL14 for current DCS.

I

[Hoirtel]

I'd like to bump this topic now in November of 2022. I am planning my next PC, feel like I am probably going to wait until X3D is out but part of me just wants to build a 13700k system now. If I did that route I would want to go DDR5. I also want 64gb. This mainly means 5600mhz CL40 kits. Can't really figure out if this is likely to be worse than the current DDR4 kits which are 3600 CL18. Is it better to spend much more on either to get better specs? 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Hoirtel

[Mars Exulte]

First and foremost, RAM is about capacity, tbh. I'd rather have 64GB of DDR4 than 32GB of DDR5. Secondly, budget. If price is no object, go ahead and get DDR5. If it is, get DDR4. RAM isn't make or break like a CPU/GPU is. As long as you have enough of it, you're otherwise looking at a few percent of performance barring special circumstances.

[Hoirtel]

Yes 64gb is the capacity I am after whatever. I have 32 now so next system will be 64. Money definitely is an object.. but I do like to know what the all-out choices are just really to understand where I might land. I think DDR5 would be worth it from a platform perspective, allowing for future upgrades to faster/larger kits but I wouldn't want to go out and buy something that ends up being worse than a possibly cheaper DDR4 set-up.

If I do decide ryzen then I think this is currently pretty simple, DDR5 only and I've heard 6000mhz is the advised choice there.

[LucShep]

15 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Yes 64gb is the capacity I am after whatever. I have 32 now so next system will be 64. Money definitely is an object.. but I do like to know what the all-out choices are just really to understand where I might land. I think DDR5 would be worth it from a platform perspective, allowing for future upgrades to faster/larger kits but I wouldn't want to go out and buy something that ends up being worse than a possibly cheaper DDR4 set-up.

If I do decide ryzen then I think this is currently pretty simple, DDR5 only and I've heard 6000mhz is the advised choice there.

I've been a big advocate of Intel i7 1*700KF series for years but, have to say, I think the Intel i5 13600KF and AMD 5800X3D are definitely the best purchases of the moment.

64GB of DDR4 (3600 CL18, for example) are still far more affordable than the equivalente DDR5 - any 64GB kit better than DDR5 5600 CL40 will be a lot more expensive.
Most gaming rigs are currently being done considering 32GB, but for DCS you reallly should go for 64GB, which makes things a litte more complicated (different) for final prices, and most tech reviews and techtubers are not considering this. 

All of which makes it a very compeling case for the AMD 5800X3D + B550 mobo + 64GB DDR4 RAM choice, not the latest AMD Ryzen 7600X, nor the Intel i5 13600K.
 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by LucShep

[Thinder]

On 5/12/2022 at 2:24 PM, LucShep said:

There is Intel "Alder Lake" 12th gen which, if with a compatible/capable DDR5 motherboard, can use DDR5 RAM.

But, at this point and so far, DDR5 RAM is not worth for gaming. DDR4 RAM is still the better choice, because you'd pay ~200% for DDR5 for just a 3% (yes, three percent) of advantage over common DDR4 low latency kits.
So, again as of today, it makes no sense for gaming.

If in doubt, plenty articles that have explained, compared and benchmarked one against the other:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-i9-12900k-alder-lake-ddr4-vs-ddr5/

https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/luke-hill/ddr4-vs-ddr5-intel-core-i9-12900k-testing/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wQ9MGrTvwc&t=316s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRvo__2taug&t=407s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIN8lLhSqmg&t=1058s

 

 

If you bound a Ryzen 5/7 with B.die RAM, notably the 3200 GHZ G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series, you'll get rid of the RAM-CPU bottleneck, that's 6.04% gain at 4K.

So I decided for my  upgrade to go for this RAM, it is far better than having to change everything for a gain which is lower, on top of which I haven't seen a single B.Die kit responding to Ryzen CPUs requirements yet...

[Hoirtel]

3 hours ago, LucShep said:

I've been a big advocate of Intel i7 1*700KF series for years but, have to say, I think the Intel i5 13600KF and AMD 5800X3D are definitely the best purchases of the moment.

64GB of DDR4 (3600 CL16, for example) are still far more affordable than the equivalente DDR5 - any 64GB kit better than DDR5 5600 CL40 will be a lot more expensive.
Most gaming rigs are currently being done considering 32GB, but for DCS you reallly should go for 64GB, which makes things a litte more complicated (different) for final prices, and most tech reviews and techtubers are not considering this. 

All of which makes it a very compeling case for the AMD 5800X3D + B550 mobo + 64GB DDR4 RAM choice, not the latest AMD Ryzen 7600X, nor the Intel i5 13600K.
 

 

 

Yes, I think that might have been what I was afraid of. It's so temping to go the 58X3D route considering how cheap they are, but I can't help but wonder what the 70X3D's will be like? Much more money but potentially much more performance too. Plus some future resilience too with both socket and RAM updates. I could spend a long time waiting though... 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Hoirtel

[LucShep]

7 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Yes, I think that might have been what I was afraid of. It's so temping to go the 58X3D route considering how cheap they are, but I can't help but wonder what the 70X3D's will be like? Much more money but potentially much more performance too. Plus some future resilience too with both socket and RAM updates. I could spend a long time waiting though... 

 

A lot of people are waiting for the AM5 Ryzen 7000X3D chip and, because of that, are passing on current deals for the AM4 Ryzen 5800X3D.
I think some things should be realized before deciding to wait for that upcoming chip, such as:

1. The new AMD Ryzen 7000X3D chip won't be unveiled before CES 2023 (January 5th-8th), and noone knows how long after that it'll be on market (at full price... $500+ ?).  
   https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000-x3d-zen-4-3d-v-cache-cpus-ces-2023-unveil/
    
2. The current AM4 Ryzen 5800X3D is among the best (if not the best) all around gaming CPU today, and is currently being sold at >25% discounts (under $350 right now).
   It also runs cooler (than AM5 7600X or 7700X, also than AM4 5800X, and equivalent Intel) and therefore is not as picky on cooling.
   For example, a Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 is a great option at $45, with room to mess about with OC, PBO and etc on that CPU, if ever desired.
    
3. Motherboard prices...
   There's plenty good (AM4 platform) B550 motherboards for the AMD Ryzen 5800X3D, all of which are far more affordable than the newer (AM5 platform) B650 motherboards meant for the new Ryzen 7000 chips.
   For example, you can go as low as the MSI B550-A Pro, currently selling at $115. And there are plenty other great sub-$200 B550 motherboards to choose... 
   Same can be said of the higher-end (AM4) X570 motherboards vs (AM5) X670 motherboards. 
    
4. DCS wants 64GB of RAM...
   DDR4 3600 CL16 (B-Die) is most recommended for the (AM4) Ryzen 5800X3D, and you can now get 64GB kits (4x 16GB) of that mem under $330.
   DDR5 6000 CL30 is most recommended for the (AM5) Ryzen 7000X chips, and 64GB kits (2x 32GB) of that mem are pretty hard to get under $500.

Yes, the upcoming (AM5) Ryzen 7000X3D should be faster the current (AM4) Ryzen 5800X3D but, as you imagine, price will fit accordingly, plus you'll have to wait.
The thing is, there's always something newer and better around the corner, such is the world of PC Hardware. As to say, something faster than the 7000X3D will be out just months later, and there it goes all over again... So, at some point, one has to draw the line and decide when and how much is enough.

It depends if you're on a budget or not, and if you want to wait or not.
Just my opinion but, considering costs of everything for a new system, little by little on this and that, it all adds up. In the end, there can be considerable savings by going with the current Ryzen 5800X3D (a killer deal right now, IMO). And that may also make that painfully expensive new GPU purchase a bit more digestable....

Edited November 7, 2022 by LucShep

[Hoirtel]

8 hours ago, LucShep said:

The thing is, there's always something newer and better around the corner, such is the world of PC Hardware. As to say, something faster than the 7000X3D will be out just months later, and there it goes all over again... So, at some point, one has to draw the line and decide when and how much is enough.

Thanks for your information. Above statement couldn't be more true. It's such a trap to get in...

[Mars Exulte]

On 11/7/2022 at 1:07 AM, Hoirtel said:

Thanks for your information. Above statement couldn't be more true. It's such a trap to get in...

Yep, I built a 5800x3d, DDR4, 3000 series build recently. It's a "deadend" upgrade path (usually you can do several iterations on AMD sockets, Intel is perpetually a dead end), but it has yielded about double the performance and satisfied my budget. I won't be upgrading again for 5 years or so.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mars Exulte

[TKu]

Best available DCS CPU is Raptor Lake 13700k regardless of DDR5 or DDR4. RAM performance is more or less equal.

Edited November 9, 2022 by TKu

[Rubber Biscuit]

I am planning on upgrading my system soon going for a RTX4090, here’s my thoughts.

my current system if 4 years old and has a ton of programs with a bunch of Steam stuff.

I have a lot of configuration of DCS, Voice attack, pedal software to redo.
I have a long list of programs that I need to reload and configure, find and redo software user keys.

So I am heavily thinking to go with AMD 7000 series to not have to go through this anytime soon.

how great would it be to just drop in a newer CPU without all the hassle of configuring a new system

To save a little for a outdated platform that needs to be completely replaced in the next update is just not worth it to me,

plus all the hours and work to setup and get working again,

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Rubber Biscuit

[Knock-Knock]

DDR4 2133, 3200, 3600, 4000, 4200, 4400
DDR5 4800, 5200, 5600, 6000
 

 

[Fakum]

This thread has not caught up to current HyperThreading capability. I am putting a shopping list together for a new build. Im finding a lot of info regarding DDR4 vs DDR5 ram, but I havnt stumbled across any clear cut answer when it comes to doing a build SPECIFICALLY to get the best performance for DCS. The video above addresses a lot, but via a different CPU that doesn’t have the same capabilities of the i9-13900K. Performance recommendations please for the following build would be greatly appreciated.

(Parts being seriously considered are as follows)

CPU- Intel Core i9-13900K

MOBO- ASUS ROG Maximus Z790 Hero

GPU- RTX 4090 SUPRIM Liquid X 24G

Storage- SAMSUNG 990 PRO SSD 2TB PCIe 4.0 M.2

Using current monitor- LG-Ultragear 38" IPS LED Ultrawide HD Monitor (3840 x 1600)

[BitMaster]

At this point in time, I'd stay away from the 990Pro, there have been issues with it's firmware. Make very sure that has been solved before you buy one.

Some , J2C and others, have mentioned that the board you picked has a higher than normal RMA rate, think about that.

That's what comes to my mind reading your shopping list.

 

[Fakum]

@BitMasterThanks for the valuable tips as usual! My eyes are burning over the last 3 weeks doing research after research for a new build, Im at a point of information overload and I dont know which way is up anymore LOL. Fortunately, I have a least a couple months before I can commit. Here is a screen shot of current part options on the list. This unresolved RAM is decision is obviously key to the build and parts selection. Again, head spinning.

null

null

Edited March 27, 2023 by Fakum

[BitMaster]

The RAM you want to have or need to have might not run with your 13th gen Intel. Those CPU's do have a terrible and unpredictable IMC according to Buildzoid and he says, many of them can hardly go over 6000. So getting a 6600 kit might work, or not. Imho, a reason more to hop to AMD. Easier to cool, less RAM trouble and not as dependent on fast RAM this time round. It's Intel now that needs fast RAM to flex it's muscles and AMD does get by with slower speeds this time and not take the performance hit ( all according to Buildzoid btw ). How things can change !

I like Gigabyte but I would also not buy one of their 4090 for simple reasons, they skipped parts ( power delivery section ) to save money ( KrisFix is very clear on this in his repair videos, MSI is the better choice here ), as also some others do.

I would pick the Aorus Master over the Extreme any day, the block diagram shows you why. Too many things onboard that have an either-or sign attached to them. The Master has the better layout, almost always.

Take a 2TB 980Pro, they come cheap meanwhile, I have 4x 1TB of them and they really do work great under pressure, 5-8 VM's opening same time, all run from 1 drive, updating etc... very nice permanent throughput. Take 2 drives, 1x OS, 1x DCS, it pays back when your OS goes south.

[Fakum]

@BitMaster Thanks for the response. I wasnt going with the Gigabyte GPU because the Waterforce is like $700 more than the Suprim. I keep getting nudged towards AMD, but quite honestly, I dont know AMD at all, at least I understand the Intel terminology when I read. I have been reading up on forum topics for new builds for DCS performance, I dont get most of the terms etc. Its tough to plan a build without understanding how the cores work etc. I dont want to turn this thread into a part recommendation thread, but my eyes are bleeding and Im getting info overload. So I will ask a simple question that perhaps I should start a new thread for, but here goes.

I have about a $3800.00 budget, and I was going top of line with Intel (MSI RTX 4090 SUPRIM Liquid X 24G is $1,740.00 itself). I plan on keeping the rig for about 5-6 years. I want best performance for DCS at 38" (3840 x 1600) monitor max refresh is 144 I believe, but I would be very happy to not drop below 60hz during game play. 

What AMD CPU, MOBO and Ram would you strongly recommend?

 

Thanks

[BitMaster]

I would either get a 7800X3D or a 7950X3D. The bigger one has twice the core count and maybe fits your 4-5 year plan better. For gaming I think both will be equal.

Get 64GB 6000MT RAM, the lower the latency the better. Gskill would be my pick. 

Personally, I used Asus for 2 decades solely but have steered away 2 years ago, since then I am very happy with Gigabyte builds. I would pick the Aorus Master board.

 

Since it will be a DIY loop build, you will likely not have to cool that much CPU with an AMD chip, that's a good thing.

If you haven't picked a tower and rad yet, I highly recommend looking into a MoRa3 radiator, external, more cooling power, less tubes inside, no pump and res inside and it looks very clean and nice too, looking at it right now. Invest in a couple of Quick Disconnectors and your DIY Loop is very service friendly.

I like to watch builds with hard tubing and what not else, BUT ..I would not like to fix one !  Flexible tubes, Quickconns and an external rad make it very simple..and hey, it looks damn cool.