reported TPOD unstows itself despite being STBY (track attached)

[Nealius]

I'm having trouble stowing the TGP. I have the TGP set on the following master modes:

 

-NAV

-AA

-AG

-MRM

 

It's set to STBY in all modes in which the TGP page is on an MFD, but I often find the pod unstowing itself. Usually when I switch between master modes. The weird thing is, the pod unstows itself even with the TGP still on STBY when I check the MFD. To stow it I have to go into the MFD page and cycle STBY-->AG-->STBY. 

 

Is there another way of stowing it I'm unaware of, that prevents it from unstowing itself?

[Falconeer]

I just tested it and for me it stows the TGP when i set it to standby in MFD

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Falconeer

[Nealius]

Wouldn't that require the BIT/warmup when I turn the hardpoint back on for actual use? In all other aircraft boxing STBY on the MFD stows the TGP and the hardpoint/TGP switch only supplies power; with it going through a BIT/warmup period after setting that switch on. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Nealius

[Sinclair_76]

 

36 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

Set Right Hardpoint power switch to off. Switch is located on the right side next to the flight stick controller 

 

 

Yeah but not really. That would require a 2 min warm up every time you want to stow the TGP.

 

Primary way is on page 178 of the manual (I think latest version).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Sinclair_76

[Falconeer]

1st post edited. Just works like it should on my end.

[Crptalk]

When you're in for example A-G mastermode and switch to NAV mastermode should it auto stow the TGP if STBY was already selected in NAV?

[Nealius]

8 hours ago, Falconeer said:

1st post edited. Just works like it should on my end.

 

It doesn't for me. It's in STBY for all modes, but when switching to A-A mode or A-G mode, then checking external F2 view, the pod is unstowed. When going back to NAV, with it still in STBY, upon checking external F2 view it's still unstowed. I have to cycle STBY-->AG-->STBY to get it to stow. 

 

On ramp start it goes straight into AG or AA mode upon turning on the hardpoint. Shouldn't it start in STBY until the pilot boxes AG or AA mode?

Edited July 11, 2021 by Nealius

[Nealius]

In all other TPOD-capable jets, the TPOD remains stowed as long as it is in STBY mode. It is only unstowed when boxed AA or AG in the display. The TPOD in the Viper is not behaving this way, instead unstowing itself when changing master modes, and when changing STPT, even when it is on STBY. In some cases when the TPOD page isn't even assigned to a master mode at all it still unstows itself. The only way to stow it is to cycle STBY-->AG (or AA depending on master mode)-->STBY. Then it unstows itself again when you cycle to the next STPT.

TPODSTOW.trk

[CypherBlue]

+1 I have noticed this behavior as well

[BIGNEWY]

Hi Nealius

 

we have no information that our current implementation is wrong, we would need some evidence. 

 

thanks

[Florence201]

Appreciate the No evidence BN, but this is one of those common sense moments. You wouldn’t expose a very expensive camera/lens into an environment (ie on the Gnd) where it could get damaged. Personally, I check the pod on the ramp, pwr it off then put power on as part of fence in checks, such that the “ball” is stowed for take off/landing 

[Jester2138]

Same issue as Nealius here. Pod never stows unless I fully power it off. However, this definitely falls into the "minor" category for me.

[Wing]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi Nealius

 

we have no information that our current implementation is wrong, we would need some evidence. 

 

thanks

BN, all TGPs are stowed on takeoff - even in the Bomber world…

 

We don’t need to provide evidence for this one. 

[Florence201]

2:46 of this video you can see the TGP stowed. 

 

[Nealius]

9 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi Nealius

 

we have no information that our current implementation is wrong, we would need some evidence. 

 

thanks

 

The -1 checklists say to stow the TGP prior to takeoff, as well as on descent/prior to landing. Older -34 manuals describing LANTIRN explicitly say the pod is stowed when in STBY mode. I see no reason why LITENING should be different, particularly when the reason for stowing (lens protection) is the same, the SOP is the same (stowing before takeoff, landing, and during low-level flight), and all other LITENING-capable aircraft (A-10, FA-18, AV8B) stow the pod when in STBY. With the current emplementation the pilot has no idea if his TPOD is actually stowed or not without being told so by ground crew or by wingman BDA. 

 

Rule 1.16 prevents me from providing the documentation, which nullifies the burden of proof being placed on the user (how can we provide proof other than Google images and YouTube? It biases heavily toward "no evidence" because we are barred from providing definiitive evidence). SMEs should check their documentation, because this behavior is not correct.

 

(I'm fully aware of why Rule 1.16 is important, and feel that the same awareness should be applied to how it is a Catch-22, requiring the burden of proof to be applied more wisely).

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Nealius

[Frederf]

TGP isn't automatically stowed when on the ground. You can takeoff and land with TGP on. There's just a rule in the rule book that says you're not allowed to.

 

However the TGP mode of operation is master mode dependent. It remembers last mode it was in. For example in AG and MO the TGP can be in AG and AA respectively but STBY in NAV. Switching between those master modes will cause the TGP to change accordingly.

 

As far as I can tell DCS mechanization is correct except I don't know if TGP AG mode should be accessible from missile or dogfight override modes. I think those should be limited to TGP-AA only just like AA master mode. TGP mode selection is memorized for the following master modes independently: NAV, AA, AG, MO, DGFT, SJ, EJ.

Apart from being to access TGP-AG in MO/DGFT, everything looks fine.

 

If you want TGP to be in STBY for every master mode then you have to set it to STBY in every master mode specifically. I believe the mode initialization is DTC loadable. I don't know what the OFP defaults would be.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Frederf

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, Frederf said:

If you want TGP to be in STBY for every master mode then you have to set it to STBY in every master mode specifically.

 

I do. The issue is that it unstows itself despite being in STBY, with the page still showing in STBY (no video feed) in all master modes. It also unstows itself when switching steerpoints while in the same master mode, on STBY. As shown in the attached track. This should not be happening. STBY should stow the pod until AG or AA is boxed, as it is with all other aircraft that use the LITENING, and as it was with the LANTIRN on Vipers prior to LITENING introduction. The behavior is such that the pilot does not know the stowed/unstowed status without checking F2 external view. If indeed it is supposed to unstow itself, then it should also automatically exit STBY, no? It makes no sense for the pod to be in STBY and unstowed, as those states are mutually exclusive. STBY=stowed; stowed=STBY. AA/AG=unstowed; unstowed=AA/AG.

 

Upon further testing, I found that I can still SOI the TGP and slew it around while unstowed and stowed in STBY. It's as if the STBY function is only visual, blanking out the video feed, and not actually putting the pod in standby (i.e. stowing it). I don't recall ever being able to SOI the TGP in STBY mode on the A-10C or FA-18C, but I will need to double check those. I certainly know that slewing shouldn't be happening in STBY.....

TPODSOISTOW.trk

Edited July 13, 2021 by Nealius

[BIGNEWY]

We will be checking and looking into this. 

[Nealius]

Thanks. More than the auto-unstow, I find the SOI and slewing while STBY to be a bigger issue. That could cause potential targeting trouble if one fumbles the DMS switch, which leads to easy mistaken slewing with a HOTAS like the Warthog, where it's easy to bump the TDC while adjusting the throttle.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Nealius

[Frederf]

9 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

I do. The issue is that it unstows itself despite being in STBY

Ah yes. I was just paying attention to the STBY-AA-AG labels and not the physical head of the store.

 

Tests
 

NAV STBY, change to AA STBY

 

NAV STBY, change to AG STBY (CCIP)

NAV STBY, change to AG STBY (CCRP)

NAV STBY, change to AG STBY (DTOS)

NAV STBY, change to AG STBY (LADD)

NAV STBY, change to AG STBY (MAN)

NAV STBY, change to AG STBY (GUN)

 

NAV STBY, change to SJ STBY

NAV STBY, change to EJ STBY

NAV STBY, change to MO STBY

NAV STBY, change to DGFT STBY

 

NAV STBY, change to AA STBY

Any mode to NAV STBY

Any AG STBY (X) to AG STBY (Y)

 

AA A-A to AG (DTOS, MAN, LADD) STBY

AA A-A to AG (CCRP) STBY

AA STBY to AG STBY

AA STBY to AG A-G

 

AG (GUN) A-G to AG (GUN) STBY*

AG (CCIP) A-G to AG (CCIP) STBY*

AG (CCRP, DTOS, LADD, MAN) A-G to AG (same) STBY

AG A-G to AA STBY

 

Any steerpoint change in NAV STBY

Any steerpoint change in AG (CCRP) STBY

Any steerpoint change in AG (MAN, LADD, DTOS) STBY

TGP impossible to stow in AG (GUN or CCIP)*

Any steerpoint change in AA STBY
Any steerpoint change in MO STBY

Any steerpoint change in DGFT STBY

Any steerpoint change in SJ STBY

Any steerpoint change in EJ STBY

 

Total possible combinations are a long list. Red are colored where TGP is has head deployed when it shouldn't. Green is expected operation.

 

Conclusions

• In no cases was TGP positioning to standby when mode not STBY
• Steerpoint change activation of the head occurs in NAV and currently implemented AG modes

[Nealius]

I also had an incident today during a flight where the pod unstowed itself with the hardpoint power turned off, which is definitely an odd one. I'm not sure exactly what triggered it, but I think it was after shutting down the hardpoint while the pod was unstowed in Nav AA mode. 

[BIGNEWY]

I have made a report for the team and we will investigate further.

 

thanks

[84-Simba]

Hi guys !

Maybe I missed something but I cannot put the TGP back to stow position after it has been activated.

I have to turn it off and then back on.

Pressing standbye OSB cuts the video feed but the pod stays pretty much in its last position.

Is there a step I missed or is it something missing ?

Thanks

[swartbyron]

Pressing OVRD stows it for me.

[Northstar98]

There seems to be a bug with the TGP coming out of the stowed position while it's in STBY mode.

First, there's this.

And secondly (which may be the same or a related issue) is that once the pod is in STBY, if a different steerpoint is selected it'll unstow itself and aim to look where said steerpoint is, despite the TGP page showing still in STBY - meaning you have to go cycle in and out of STBY (or press OVRD) to re-stow it, whenever the currently selected steerpoint changes.

Note: in both of these cases, the TGP page will still show as STBY.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Northstar98