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F-15C NWS function


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Hi,

NWS disengage (default LAlt+Q) does nothing. Sitting in a parking spot with NWS disengaged but my nosewheel turns when I give her some rudder. Does it lock only at certain speed on wheelsduring TO runs or it's bugged? AFAIK it should lock the nosewheel straight and all the rudder input should affect only rudder panels.

 

On the other hand NWS range works properly.

 

I know that FC3 jets are kinda neglected and not interesting to anyone anymore but there's a lot of forgotten issues that need addressing.

 

F-15C:

-strange Autopilot behaviour, trim remains active with ATT and/or ALT hold engaged.

-radar performance: unable to detect C-17 sized target >60nm, losing lock upon each notch of a contact, no contact history displayed on B-scope, unprecise TDC with no zoom option so soft locking fighter sized contacts flying close formation at 40nm is almost impossible.

-full Mil thrust required for straight and level cruising rendering RPM ranges of 67-91 wasted that can be used only for descents.

 

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Afaik pilots don't lock NWS in the Eagle. Only maintenance crew does. On take off and landing use precise rudder input.

 

For TDC control use axis - there you can set curves to suit your sensitivity.

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You can't lock NWS on the F-15, disengage just disengages the rudder pedal inputs from NWS.  It should work like a caster wheel while the switch is held.  Like draconus said just use minimal input w/o disengaging to keep yourself tracking down the runway.

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On 7/14/2021 at 3:57 PM, Vekkinho said:

 

F-15C:

-strange Autopilot behaviour, trim remains active with ATT and/or ALT hold engaged.

-radar performance: unable to detect C-17 sized target >60nm, losing lock upon each notch of a contact, no contact history displayed on B-scope, unprecise TDC with no zoom option so soft locking fighter sized contacts flying close formation at 40nm is almost impossible.

-full Mil thrust required for straight and level cruising rendering RPM ranges of 67-91 wasted that can be used only for descents.

 

 

Without any problems I can detect and lock target like C-17, Tu-95, KC-135 or E3 on 70-80 Nm. 
If you cannot do it, you do not know use the radar. A locked target with the correct radar parameters can only disappear when it flies perpendicular to your direction of flight or reaches your speed while flying in the same direction as you. There is no other option. Ah is one option is - bad radar work in your hands.
Are you unable to distinguish a single plane from a pair in a close formation? Again, I suggest you learn to use the radar. You can locate two close-flying targets at a distance of 40-50 Nm.

 

Do you know how to use the radar operating frequency? What frequency, under what conditions, enables or prevents the detection and lock of the target?
Do you know the principle of Doppler radar? Worth knowning 😉

 

On 100% motors only run at full afterburner. So I don't understand what's wrong with the "power" indication of their work without afterburner?


 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Nahen said:

On 100% motors only run at full afterburner. So I don't understand what's wrong with the "power" indication of their work without afterburner?

OP complains about MIL thrust being too weak but did not share any info of test config, weight, day temp, alt... nothing.

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5 hours ago, Nahen said:

 

Without any problems I can detect and lock target like C-17, Tu-95, KC-135 or E3 on 70-80 Nm. 
If you cannot do it, you do not know use the radar. A locked target with the correct radar parameters can only disappear when it flies perpendicular to your direction of flight or reaches your speed while flying in the same direction as you. There is no other option. Ah is one option is - bad radar work in your hands.
Are you unable to distinguish a single plane from a pair in a close formation? Again, I suggest you learn to use the radar. You can locate two close-flying targets at a distance of 40-50 Nm.

 

Do you know how to use the radar operating frequency? What frequency, under what conditions, enables or prevents the detection and lock of the target?
Do you know the principle of Doppler radar? Worth knowning 😉

 

On 100% motors only run at full afterburner. So I don't understand what's wrong with the "power" indication of their work without afterburner?


 

 

 

You misunderstood most of my text. English is not your native language so it's there for you to read it again 'til it clicks on you.

There's nothing wrong with RPM power indication and for your info there is no 100% RPM power indication.

Just saying that MilPower is underperforming. Maintaining cruise speed of M0,9 at cruise altitude of 38000ft in a straight and level clean jet  is impossible W/O occasional afterburner use. No wind, no turbulence, temperature at 20°C. At altitudes beyond 20.000ft Eagle is sluggish, fat and overly acts an aerobrake. Every >1.0G moment is a dragbrake.

Radar? You seem to know a lot 'bout it from a DCS: F-15C for dummies manual but you miss a fact that the F-15C presented in DCS is a joke. At least when it comes to fact that LOMAC / FC and now DCS version of Eagle has skins from 2003, weapons from 2004 and radar from 1970. If you present an Eagle equipped with AIM-120B and even C version od an AMRAAM featured fadar should (at least) be a 1990 AN/APG-63(V)1 modernized version of 1970 APG-63. It was introduced few months before Desert Storm in order to support AMRAAM missiles. Previous radar version had no TWS, only LRS. TWS mode is capable of tracking 14 and engaging 6 targets simultaneously. Can You twizz 6 contacts in DCS? In DCS there is a Hi/Med PRF and there is (as we call it here) "wide" +-60° and "narrow" +-30° azimuth scan but +-10° is limited to boresight and VS modes only. (?!) Elevation scan is limited to 4 bars (?!), no zoom option to magnify display to an area covered by TDC in a given moment. So picking between few fighter sized AC flying at 15ft parade formation distance is impossible at greater than 20nm radar range settings. There's no track history. If you lose lock (intentionally or not) during initial AMRAAM flight missile should fly to a last known position of a contact, once it gets there it turns active (pitbull) and scan for a target of opportunity (usually the greatest RCS it can detect). That's why you call pitbull, not because it sounds cool but to warn all friendly flights in the area that missile is mad and can't tell red from blue anymore. In DCS they go bee line when you lose lock and pitbull is hardcoded to 10nm.

 

We can overspeed a gear in DCS, why can't we overspeed an airbrake?!

 

DCS might follow official F-15C paper data but there's something seriousely mismodelled at altitudes beyond 20.000ft, might be a flight model issue (too draggy jet) or the way DCS skies act beyond 20.000ft. It should be less dense air, less lift generated but also less drag during maneuvers so I can conclude that both energy management and radar segments of F-15C module underperform in DCS. 

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3 hours ago, Vekkinho said:

why can't we overspeed an airbrake?!

Should we? Have a source? The manuals I thumb through did not mention any limits or special consideration.

 

Quote

So picking between few fighter sized AC flying at 15ft parade formation distance is impossible at greater than 20nm radar range settings

According to my calculations it would be 0.00707° between the targets. It is a stretch imho that we can already achive that performance currently. Maybe you have some source saying otherwise.

 

Keep in mind that both radar and MIL thrust undergo investigation by ED or at least are already reported.

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/265286-f-15-mil-thrust-underperforming-at-altitudes-over-20000/

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/233863-anapg-63-range-is-under-represented/#comments

 

I wouldn't hope for any functionality improvements or radar modes though as FC3 is deemed feature complete and Flanker guys have the same problem. Remember that FC3 has simplified systems modeling - don't expect full RL functionality.

 

Mind you, I'm not against any improvements or fixes - I really wish F-15C was made full fidelity module one day - just manage your expectations, provide data and tracks to better present  the issues you find, one bug a thread. General rants usually have no effect.


Edited by draconus

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There are still plenty of f-15's rocking v-0 radars today, for a 90's F-15c v-0 is pretty accurate.  The radar in game is definitely not true to life but being a fc acft we likely won't see an overhaul anytime soon.  It's still in use and data is gonna be a bit scarce for a while longer.  As for the high altitude cruising, I wonder if the variable intakes were modeled.... compressing all that air at altitude plays a huge part in performance.  My guess is they just took raw engine data and tried to just make it match a few charts

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On 7/14/2021 at 4:57 PM, Vekkinho said:

Hi,

NWS disengage (default LAlt+Q) does nothing. Sitting in a parking spot with NWS disengaged but my nosewheel turns when I give her some rudder. Does it lock only at certain speed on wheelsduring TO runs or it's bugged? AFAIK it should lock the nosewheel straight and all the rudder input should affect only rudder panels.

 

On the other hand NWS range works properly.

I can't confirm this error. It would be great to have a track showing the wrong behaviour. Thanks!

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On 7/16/2021 at 5:17 AM, Vekkinho said:

You misunderstood most of my text. English is not your native language so it's there for you to read it again 'til it clicks on you.

There's nothing wrong with RPM power indication and for your info there is no 100% RPM power indication.

Just saying that MilPower is underperforming. Maintaining cruise speed of M0,9 at cruise altitude of 38000ft in a straight and level clean jet  is impossible W/O occasional afterburner use. No wind, no turbulence, temperature at 20°C. At altitudes beyond 20.000ft Eagle is sluggish, fat and overly acts an aerobrake. Every >1.0G moment is a dragbrake.

Radar? You seem to know a lot 'bout it from a DCS: F-15C for dummies manual but you miss a fact that the F-15C presented in DCS is a joke. At least when it comes to fact that LOMAC / FC and now DCS version of Eagle has skins from 2003, weapons from 2004 and radar from 1970. If you present an Eagle equipped with AIM-120B and even C version od an AMRAAM featured fadar should (at least) be a 1990 AN/APG-63(V)1 modernized version of 1970 APG-63. It was introduced few months before Desert Storm in order to support AMRAAM missiles. Previous radar version had no TWS, only LRS. TWS mode is capable of tracking 14 and engaging 6 targets simultaneously. Can You twizz 6 contacts in DCS? In DCS there is a Hi/Med PRF and there is (as we call it here) "wide" +-60° and "narrow" +-30° azimuth scan but +-10° is limited to boresight and VS modes only. (?!) Elevation scan is limited to 4 bars (?!), no zoom option to magnify display to an area covered by TDC in a given moment. So picking between few fighter sized AC flying at 15ft parade formation distance is impossible at greater than 20nm radar range settings. There's no track history. If you lose lock (intentionally or not) during initial AMRAAM flight missile should fly to a last known position of a contact, once it gets there it turns active (pitbull) and scan for a target of opportunity (usually the greatest RCS it can detect). That's why you call pitbull, not because it sounds cool but to warn all friendly flights in the area that missile is mad and can't tell red from blue anymore. In DCS they go bee line when you lose lock and pitbull is hardcoded to 10nm.

 

We can overspeed a gear in DCS, why can't we overspeed an airbrake?!

 

DCS might follow official F-15C paper data but there's something seriousely mismodelled at altitudes beyond 20.000ft, might be a flight model issue (too draggy jet) or the way DCS skies act beyond 20.000ft. It should be less dense air, less lift generated but also less drag during maneuvers so I can conclude that both energy management and radar segments of F-15C module underperform in DCS. 

 

 

First of all, the cruising speed of the F-15C is not 0.9 Ma but 0.75 so I do not understand why you want to fly without an afterburner at 0.9 Ma, since this plane from version A to version C / D has never been able to do it in the real world?

 

As for the radar, the DCS detection and "locking" parameters for the F-15C / D are laughs. The version after the modernization of MSIP already had much higher parameters declared by Raytheon than what is in DCS.

 

But that is exactly what I would not like to change it do, because it is probably the best working DSC radar compared to the F / A-18 and F-16 radars, the F-15C has a great radar. No real but still better than other radars in DCS. 

 

Yes, I can lock 6 targets in the F-15C in TWS without a problem. The condition that they meet all the radar operating conditions at once, and not when some of them are just "escaping" from the radar. I propose single mission, six no maneuverable targets on the opposite and check. Its works for me. 

 

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Not sure where you are getting .75 Mach as the F-15c cruising speed....  At 40k altitude full of gas and a centerline tank and 2x 120s + 2× 9x's you should be right at .89 Mach in mil.  That's with a drag index in the low 20's.  I don't understand why you would want to fly at .75 Mach when the F-15 cruises over .85 in a combat configuration

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optimun long range cruise.jpg

On 7/17/2021 at 5:07 PM, Nahen said:

 

 

First of all, the cruising speed of the F-15C is not 0.9 Ma but 0.75 so I do not understand why you want to fly without an afterburner at 0.9 Ma, since this plane from version A to version C / D has never been able to do it in the real world?

 

As for the radar, the DCS detection and "locking" parameters for the F-15C / D are laughs. The version after the modernization of MSIP already had much higher parameters declared by Raytheon than what is in DCS.

 

But that is exactly what I would not like to change it do, because it is probably the best working DSC radar compared to the F / A-18 and F-16 radars, the F-15C has a great radar. No real but still better than other radars in DCS. 

 

Yes, I can lock 6 targets in the F-15C in TWS without a problem. The condition that they meet all the radar operating conditions at once, and not when some of them are just "escaping" from the radar. I propose single mission, six no maneuverable targets on the opposite and check. Its works for me. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Not_G said:

Not sure where you are getting .75 Mach as the F-15c cruising speed....  At 40k altitude full of gas and a centerline tank and 2x 120s + 2× 9x's you should be right at .89 Mach in mil.  That's with a drag index in the low 20's.  I don't understand why you would want to fly at .75 Mach when the F-15 cruises over .85 in a combat configuration

 

Cause Nahen didn't get his facts straight.

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  • 10 months later...

For the F-15 in particular, this function requires you to HOLD the key binding. For every other aircraft, it's a toggle function, but for the F-15, it only works while you hold the key. And by the way, if you start holding it AFTER you move your rudder, it will hold the wheel steering in that direction even after you neutralize rudder, so make sure you have it neutral when you press and hold the key.

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