Virtual glide path line for case i/ii/iii recovery

[Jenson]

Hey guys, although I have practiced hundreds of times for case i recovery (I'm flying hornet btw), sometimes I still have trouble for the final approach phase, especially regarding the left/right alignment. I'm wondering you guys also wish that ED could add an option to show a "perfect" virtual glide path line, maybe in half-transparent, assisting us to practice sticking to the correct glide path. Just like in those car racing games (Horizon 4), a virtual racing line. 

 

 

 

[AvgWhiteGuy]

I would vote YES to this on the basis that I'd do anything to improve my recovery skills (I suck after after more than a year).....however....I'd vote NO if it meant reallocating significant DCS Dev resources on current FIXES and projects. If this could be a quick little side project I'd say GO FOR IT!!!

It seems to me that between the Long Range Laser Lineup System and 'flying the needles' there is enough mental projection for the glide slope and my most successful recoveries are practiced in early evening when the deck lighting puts all of this into better perspective.

I think once you 'get it'...you got it and only practice will keep those skills sharp. Unfortunately i don't GOT IT yet. . In my opinion Carrier landings are the hardest thing a pilot can do, I admire Naval Aviators for this above all. 

 

Interested in hearing other opinions on this and finally, I think DCS and the community would benefit if there was a more developed Training mission on this subject. I've watched countless YT videos but putting it all together still has me boggled.

Edited July 18, 2021 by AvgWhiteGuy

[Tom Kazansky]

ICLS

[Jenson]

19 hours ago, Tom Kazansky said:

ICLS

 

Isn't ICLS usually used in case iii? I think in case i you don't activate ICLS, and ICLS doesn't help much when you are in the base leg, i mean you wouldn't know if your turn is too big or too small. 

[Tom Kazansky]

2 hours ago, Jenson said:

 

Isn't ICLS usually used in case iii? I think in case i you don't activate ICLS, and ICLS doesn't help much when you are in the base leg, i mean you wouldn't know if your turn is too big or too small. 

When you end right of the boat/ICLS it was too big. Left it was too small. Do you know about Banklet's recovery trainer? And for the Tomcat there is a training mission for case I with green gates. But if you still need a line to learn how to do it it's ok.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Tom Kazansky

[Tom Kazansky]

For the break turn you can check the distance to the course line on the HSI of the Hornet. If you are in the desired speed windows those turns are always quite similar. But I'm not here to tell others how they should learn it. I just posted my vote and opinion and respect others.

[Jenson]

On 7/19/2021 at 12:29 PM, Tom Kazansky said:

When you end right of the boat/ICLS it was too big. Left it was too small. Do you know about Banklet's recovery trainer? And for the Tomcat there is a training mission for case I with green gates. But if you still need a line to learn how to do it it's ok.

 

 

Yes, thanks. I mean before entering the groove, I wouldn't know if my turn is too big or small, it's purely based on experience by taking glances at the carrier and judge how should I adjust my bank angle. I know I could also check HSI, TACN, bearing etc. to assist me to tell where I'm at the moment, yet usually i'll just focus on HUD trying to keep the bank angle, velocity vector at the right position, after entering the 2nd 90° of baseleg, i will start to peek at the carrier and adjust my bank angle, however, sometimes I still end up either left or right of the central line when i enter the groove at 0.7nm behind the stern. I guess I should practice more to improve but I'm just thinking that a virtual glide path could help novice to learn faster. I know Bankler's case i trainer (and it's standards) but I didn't use it. Also thanks for letting me know Tomcat case i training green gate thing, that's something I meant with the virtual glide path. 

[markturner1960]

i WONDER HOW EASY IT WOULD BE TO TRANSFER THE GREENGATES TO A HORNET MISSION? i HAVE FLOWN HUNDREDS OF CARRIER LANDINGS YET STILL STRUGGLE IN THE TURN TO THE GROOVE, AS THERE IS NOTHING REALLY TO ALIGN YOURSELF TOO.... Sorry for the caps, cant be arsed to type it again....

 

you could then ;ook for field of view cues etc to learn and get yourself lined up better with out the gates

[AvgWhiteGuy]

@markturner1960...as I said above I suck at this 'art'. But an answer to your question might be that the GREENGATES may be be unusable on a 'moving object' (ie. Carrier). Either method, GREENGATES or what is suggested at the start would be great IF it didn't reallocate resources in Dev.

[markturner1960]

Yeah, I noticed that there is a gated F18 mission, but the carrier is stationary, I guess for those reasons......

 

I was thinking though, if they can make an IFLOLS overlay that interprets where you are in space and time, then perhaps this could be adapted to cover the turn from abeam to the groove? 

 

I am a hardcore pilot, and have maybe 600 landings in my logbook on the carrier, but still really struggle for perfection in that last turn - its the lack of visual cues to align yourself with I think.

 

Anyway, if it were possible, then it would surely be a help to many people..........

Edited July 25, 2021 by markturner1960

[FlyingTaco21]

I'm not sure how this would work in practice because your glideslope is kind of a product of your aoa and fluctuations in speed... you can't really fly down a path and expect a good landing because the path is product of maintaining proper aoa and the vertical speed etc derives from that... if you just flew down a series of transparent rectangles like in pilot wings or something, your aoa and speed etc would flow from that and probably be out of limits.  Its a bit more complex then that but  and there are a lot of factors at play but the biggest impact I've noticed has been flying the right pattern and staying ahead of the aircraft. 

[AvgWhiteGuy]

Re-reading all of the above I see a re-occurring admission here, one that I'm certainly guilty, confused or seemingly incapable of grasping and performing; that is the final on-speed turn to get into the 'groove'. There is a million things happening here and the added variables of aircraft weight and moving deck just complicates the scenario further. IRL I would imagine this part is a little easier due to the real-world sensory information available; a wider vision perspective and sensations of 3D motion that can't be achieved in any 2D SIM. (although a little more butt tightening IRL with the recognition of failed outcome results; huge applause & credit to naval aviators). 
I would imagine that being 'placed' in the perfect position at the top of the groove, most of us (mortal armchair pilots) could successfully maintain a proper AOA and descend on-speed to success...given the practice time and efforts. Getting to that near perfect position seems to be the issue I have and see here. Starting with which wire I hit (or didn't) , and then going BACKWARDS in the scenario, I'm recognizing that things were FUBAR way before I was struggling midway down the glide-slope (left-right-high-low-fast-slow).
With all that in mind I'm going to try something I should have done a lot earlier...but need some help from the community. 
First, I'm going to D/L and fly the stationary gates mission mentioned above so I really get the right on-speed turns required.
Then, I would ask that someone contribute a TRK post of a seemingly perfect landing circuit from maybe 5 miles behind the carrier thru the whole process til hitting the deck (at wire 2-3). I want to sit on your shoulder 'backseat' in the cockpit and experience this process (hands off) so I can just watch from the comfort & safety, while observing ALL of it. I've watched countless videos but it doesn't replace the in-cockpit experience of sitting in the backseat and being able to look around and take it all in. 
Any takers that would contribute this history making educational TRK that would further the DCS fleet's goal of more competent naval aviators? If so, I would suggest (beg) the following parameters;

1) use the most prevalent terrain/region (Caucasus) that everyone would have.

2) SuperCarrier preferred with additional visual cues of the fleet
3) Case I, wind over the deck at normal steam
4) fly the F/A-18, stripped down to only a set of AIM-9's and 3-5,000lbs fuel, no externals
5) try late afternoon/early evening since that generally has the best visual contrast with the carrier's landing aid lighting systems.

6) check your direction and SUN to avoid added reflections or shadows
7) don't rush it....don't hesitate to extend the first and final turns by a small margin.
don't add any further complications; we're already naked, afraid and alone...please

 

If there is someone that would take up this challenge, I would be happy to supply a base mission miz to start with.

 

 

Love to hear responses to this...keep in mind it's all about educating your fellow aviators.

Edited July 26, 2021 by AvgWhiteGuy

[AvgWhiteGuy]

Can anyone send me a link to the "Tomcat training mission for case I with green gates" that Tom Kazansky mentioned above, and is it editable to replace the Tomcat with a Hornet?

Appreciate the help,

[t1mb0b]

this one still going? the tools you need are surely all there in the sim, TCN with an accurate CSEL, you get distance from the line as well as the HUD cue, then glideslope/fine tuning from ICLS.

What more do you need? And 'it's not IRL' won't wash because great big green boxes to fly though isn't IRL either ! 

Edited July 26, 2021 by t1mb0b

[Tom Kazansky]

Here is where you find it (if you have the F-14):

 

(e.g.)D:\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircraft\F14\Missions\Training

 

it is called:

F-14B tutorial carrier-based Case1.miz

Edited July 26, 2021 by Tom Kazansky

[AvgWhiteGuy]

Thanks Tom, but I don't have a Tomcat......

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, AvgWhiteGuy said:

Thanks Tom, but I don't have a Tomcat......

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/personal/licensing/trial/

[AvgWhiteGuy]

@draconus....now there's fresh and helpful idea...thanks. I followed your implied suggestion and will see if I can edit this  for a Hornet. 

 

Cheers Sir,

[markturner1960]

There is an F-18 mission with the gates.......in training. However, the boat is stationary. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by markturner1960

[markturner1960]

1 hour ago, t1mb0b said:

this one still going? the tools you need are surely all there in the sim, TCN with an accurate CSEL, you get distance from the line as well as the HUD cue, then glideslope/fine tuning from ICLS.

What more do you need? And 'it's not IRL' won't wash because great big green boxes to fly though isn't IRL either ! 

 

Clearly not as myself and quite a few others ( including squad mates) struggle to align ourselves in 3D space correctly. Just because you can do it, does not mean its not difficult for others. In flight refueling for example is notoriously difficult for people and that is way easier to practice as you have a giant tanker to align yourself too and lots of different reference points. There are loads of requests for help on this........???? Why is my request any different ? The key issue here is there is nothing to align yourself to....when you do a airfield pattern landing, there is the runway, scenery, etc etc that allow you to gauge and adjust your position. The turn to the groove is entirely devoid of these, thus making it very tricky and not only that, difficult to see where you are going wrong. 

 

Gates just came to mind as a useful tool, but of course, if there are other ways of doing it, then lets use them instead. If I use the ICLS it is useful and does help a lot, my biggest issue is getting used to varying and slow spool times and the effect your position and bank has on the position relative to the glideslope and how quickly the engines react to input from the throttle. My biggest two errors are getting into a vertical oscillation caused by over or under applying power and judging my turn radius in relation to the boat so I roll out in the correct position. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by markturner1960

[AvgWhiteGuy]

3 hours ago, t1mb0b said:

this one still going? the tools you need are surely all there in the sim

No, they're not....most of us haven't successfully passed naval aviator flight school...or any other flight school for that matter. We're here to have fun, enjoy a passion, and just fly. 
Just because you, apparently a MENSA member and an Academy big league prospect can 'get it' doesn't mean that the rest of us mere mortals learn at the same rate, through the same tools or methods. 
You joining this thread with a condescending 'this one still going on?' doesn't add anything constructive or helpful to a usually supportive community and really isn't appreciated. If you have nothing constructive, positive or enlightening to add, go join the 'fighter aircraft realistic seat fabric' thread and postulate your worldly knowledge and vision.
But thanks for playin'

[t1mb0b]

2 complimentary tools native in the cockpit, which you can yourself at will select/de-select when and if necessary? - come on, those are constructive ideas. Why discount those and add green boxes to fly through?

If you can't line up with a line directly in line with the trap, AND a number on the HSI that tells you the distance from that line, AND an ICLS glideslope thrown in, then re-inventing the wheel isn't going to help your particular wagon to roll.

[Turboboy997]

I'm using Oculus 1 and also struggling with left to right approach. Every landing is a left to right problem, never a right to left issue. I'm starting to wonder if the Thrustmaster TWCS throttle is up to the challenge with just a single lever for both engines ( I've had a single engine and a twin engine boat and docking is a lot easier with twins) .

You see this tutorial videos on how to land but you have no idea what controllers they are using.   

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Turboboy997 said:

I'm starting to wonder if the Thrustmaster TWCS throttle is up to the challenge with just a single lever for both engines...

What? Why would you use differential engine throttle for landing?

[TimRobertsen]

On 10/7/2021 at 1:13 PM, Turboboy997 said:

I'm using Oculus 1 and also struggling with left to right approach. Every landing is a left to right problem, never a right to left issue. I'm starting to wonder if the Thrustmaster TWCS throttle is up to the challenge with just a single lever for both engines ( I've had a single engine and a twin engine boat and docking is a lot easier with twins) .

You see this tutorial videos on how to land but you have no idea what controllers they are using.   

I might have misunderstodd something here, but I fly with a TWCS and PS4-controller. Doing carrier-landings and AAR works just fine. Im not going to claim that I am some kind of ace, and I certainly dont get things right every time, but when I muck it up, its not because of the controllers, it's all on me.

This might be an unwarranted tangent, but for all the new folks who are just getting into DCS: you most certaintly dont need a monster controller-setup to get by.