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Rafale as possible next project/module from HEATBLUR?!


wormeaten

Are you interested in real professional made module of Rafale?  

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  1. 1. Are you interested in real professional made module of Rafale?

    • Yes I will purchase one for sure.
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    • No, I'm not interested in Rafale at all.
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This is just my possible prediction and to be honest wish.
Rafale will be logical step after release of the Euro Fighter. It is similar aircraft as EF, delta wings, dual motor almost the same weapons.
Practically half of the job for Rafale is already done in EF, just will need tweaks for some differences and visually different 3D model but core will be the same.

Also I think how Rafale could be commercially very successful similar maybe even more successful among all HEATBLUR modules.

So Gentleman's from HB think about it!

 

Community, what do you think about it?


Edited by wormeaten
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  • wormeaten changed the title to Rafale as possible next project/module from HEATBLUR?!

My guess? Honestly I doubt the Typhoon is going to be as 1:1 realistic as the other more venerable modules, its just too new. Same with a hypothetical Rafale module.

 

As for building the module, the Rafale would need an entirely new flight model and avionics/mechanical outfit, which is a significant portion of the work a module requires, its not "half done" just because they are making another module which also has a delta-canard, dual engine config.

 

And some of the primary weapons of the these very modern aircraft are ALSO very very new (SPEAR, Brimstone, Meteor, stormshadow/SCALP etc) and also very unlikely to have much real data available.

 

Not to mention these aircraft are from within the time where RCS/RCS reduction is a major factor. No way that sort of data is public knowledge.

A typhoon is broadly a similar size/class to an FA18 Hornet, but has a much smaller RCS (and hence detection range for a particular radar). But how much smaller? How should we simulate that? And the Rafale is designed with even more obvious RCS reduction features.

 

Im not keen on buying modules which are "estimations". The behaviour of ECM (we will likely never get good data on the EW functions of modern aircraft) in DCS and how it has evolved over time shows the kind of spanners that estimations throw in the works -> different aircraft with identical equipment, issues with multiplayer "fairness", issues with over-or-under-poweredness etc etc. Today, Typhoons on excersize very rarely activate their radar, a) they are in friendly airspace in peacetime with plentiful ATC covereage and b) anyone with some fairly simple equipment could record data on the radar pulses and start to determine capabilities that they would rather not share if they dont have to.

 

Unless someone can say the devs have access to similar quality data as other keystone modules?


Edited by p1t1o
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On 7/23/2021 at 8:35 PM, p1t1o said:

My guess? Honestly I doubt the Typhoon is going to be as 1:1 realistic as the other more venerable modules, its just too new. Same with a hypothetical Rafale module.

 

Rafale would be even less realistic than Typhoon because Heatblur doesn't have any real life Rafale pilots.

So it would be both, everything would be classified and not allowed to be disclosed and the lack of knowledge of the real life pilots at the same time. Good luck.


Edited by kseremak
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I don't think it's likely that they'd make one, at least not right now anyway. Though if they did, I'd absolutely buy it.

Not really holding my breath though.

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If we are looking at 1:1 realistic models then nobody will fly DCS or any other flight sim, especially with modern jets fighter.
Don't get me wrong, DCS is the most realistic fighter planes sim very close to full realistic features but still not 100% accurate. That is normal and never can't be. In the end, this is a game no matter how realistic it is but need to keep that fun factor and balance modules to keep them competitive and fun in PvP normally compared to real fighters.

 

Another part of the realism is probably any top-secret anyway and no one will ever talk about it publicly so we who are not real-life fighter pilots for some models will never know any way how much are they accurate compared to the real thing. Real pilots will never talk about it in detail anyway.

 

So in general in DCS I'm more than satisfied with the level of realism and with ED intention to be most realistic as it is possible and will never complain about it if it stays like it is so far.

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Rafale is so classified, being used in combat currently, everything would have to be totally made up fiction. I would risk to say US F-22 could be made more realistic than Rafe.

And without it's SPECTRA suite, one of Rafale's most crucial system it depends more than most other aircrafts, it would be crippled.

 

It would be as (un)realistic as fan-made MOD so no point making it at this moment.


Edited by bies
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That or a Gripen C would be nice. But it's so far in the future that we probably shouldn't talk about it just yet. Instead we should just be hyped that HB & TG are joining forces to bring us the EF even sooner than what would've otherwise been possible 🙂

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On 7/24/2021 at 10:29 PM, bies said:

Rafale is so classified, being used in combat currently, everything would have to be totally made up fiction. I would risk to say US F-22 could be made more realistic than Rafe.

And without it's SPECTRA suite, one of Rafale's most crucial system it depends more than most other aircrafts, it would be crippled.

 

It would be as (un)realistic as fan-made MOD so no point making it at this moment.

 

The eurofighter came into service after the rafale (2004 v 2001) so how is the rafale 'too modern and still in combat' any different to the EF?

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1 hour ago, Father Cool said:

The eurofighter came into service after the rafale (2004 v 2001) so how is the rafale 'too modern and still in combat' any different to the EF?

 

Yet you see the difference in real world - an early German Eurofighter is going to be modeled with cooperation with real life EF pilots when Mirage 2000-5 is not allowed, not even mentioning any Rafale.

No Rafale pilots around eager to disclose anything. No Dassault eager to sign any license.

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2 minutes ago, bies said:

 

Yet you see the difference in real world - an early German Eurofighter is going to be modeled with cooperation with real life EF pilots when Mirage 2000-5 is not allowed, not even mentioning any Rafale.

No Rafale pilots around eager to disclose anything. No Dassault eager to sign any license.

Agreed however thats not because it is currently in combat. Its because of the reluctance from Dassault to co-operate. Maybe they would if asked?

 

Personally I'm fine with the EF in any case.

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14 minutes ago, Father Cool said:

Agreed however thats not because it is currently in combat. Its because of the reluctance from Dassault to co-operate. Maybe they would if asked?

 

Personally I'm fine with the EF in any case.

 

Better speak with RAZBAM, they were asking Dassault many times for Mirage 2000-5 - refused. RAZBAM stated something like they would have to made up nearly everything and invent some fictional systems and equipment by themselves this it would be pointless.

 

EDIT:

RAZBAM's developer citation:

Quote

The main problem with the M-2000-5 is this:

 

It is too current and there is almost no information for it, except for some cockpit photos. Most of the systems would be WAGUESS (wild ass guess), so I'd rather pass for the time being on this aircraft until we can get more info on it.

 


Edited by bies
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On 7/28/2021 at 9:51 AM, bies said:

Better speak with RAZBAM, they were asking Dassault many times for Mirage 2000-5 - refused. RAZBAM stated something like they would have to made up nearly everything and invent some fictional systems and equipment by themselves this it would be pointless.

Dassault themselves are fairly notorious over their IP about this, in fact the only reason why the Mirage 2000C is in the state it's currently in is due to to direct involvement with the AdA.

In fact that's probably why it was called M-2000C instead of its actual name which is Mirage 2000C.

What I think needs to be realised is that the reason HB/TG can only do a Typhoon at all, is because TrueGrit is working with the manufacturer (Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH), the management agency (NETMA) and has a former Eurofighter Typhoon pilot on the team too - none of this applies for the Rafale, which when you compound the fact that Dassault are the way they are, makes it rather unlikely.

And that's before we talk about Spectra, or its phased array RADAR (the latter being something that doesn't exist in DCS).

Even then, the only Rafale I'm interested in is the M, and only if we get the Charles de Gaulle CVN, a Forbin class FFG, and an Aquitaine class FFG, and even at that it's very low on the list of aircraft I'd like to see. At the moment I'm much more interested in an F-4J/S/E Phantom II (which my personal preference being an F-4M circa 1975-- and an 80s F-111F), so I think for now, I'm going to say no.


Edited by Northstar98
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TBH, I'd rather have a Rafale M than a Eurofighter.

 

I'd also like a Super Étendard (incl the Modernisé subvariants), as it would fit nicely into assets already out (PG terrain) or on the way (Falklands/ Malvinas terrain).

Plus the upcoming F-8J would pair up nicely as a make-believe F-8E(FN) for some Foch and Clémenceau carrier action.

 

A Libya map (think 80s "Line of Death" and ElDorado Canyon action F-14s, F/A-18s, A-6s, A-7s) would also work rather nicely with a SEM (and F-16s, Eurofighters) for the later civil war.

But that's just me thinking out loud...

So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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23 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

A Libya map (think 80s "Line of Death" and ElDorado Canyon action F-14s, F/A-18s, A-6s, A-7s)

 

Sounds like a good idea. Very relevant for many DCS modules, real warfare, lot of sea for both aircraft carrier operations and land bases, not extremely urbanized.

 

Nearly all of 1980s "Line of Death" and "ElDorado Canyon" aircraft are present in DCS or during development US F-14A, A-6E, A-7E, Libyan MiG-21bis, MiG-23, Su-17, Mirage F.1, L-39, Mi-8, Mi-24. Only F-111 would be missing but it operated from land bases outside of the map.

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On 7/23/2021 at 12:33 PM, wormeaten said:

This is just my possible prediction and to be honest wish.
Rafale will be logical step after release of the Euro Fighter. It is similar aircraft as EF, delta wings, dual motor almost the same weapons.
Practically half of the job for Rafael is already done in EF, just will need tweaks for some differences and visually different 3D model but core will be the same.

Also I think how Rafale could be commercially very successful similar maybe even more successful among all HEATBLUR modules.

So Gentleman's from HB think about it!

 

Community, what do you think about it?

 

First and foremost you have to take into consideration that the Rafael is still in active service and it would definitely have a lots of its systems and weapons classified.

The only way you can hope for a Rafael coming to DCS in the near future is for Frances air force to contract ED to make them a simulator. That way ED is provided with all the necessary data and licenses required to make a full fidelity simulation of the Rafael.   So if you really want it that bad and you can't wait until its retired and declassifed enough to be doable I recommend learning some french so you can make some calls to sell some french officials to contract ED for the job.

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20 hours ago, Evoman said:

First and foremost you have to take into consideration that the Rafael is still in active service and it would definitely have a lots of its systems and weapons classified.

The only way you can hope for a Rafael coming to DCS in the near future is for Frances air force to contract ED to make them a simulator. That way ED is provided with all the necessary data and licenses required to make a full fidelity simulation of the Rafael.   So if you really want it that bad and you can't wait until its retired and declassifed enough to be doable I recommend learning some french so you can make some calls to sell some french officials to contract ED for the job.

 

All of it you mention is apply to Euro Fighter as well. It is the same age, same generation, and same time frame jet. Almost all weapons are the same or very similar. Lots of shared technology.
So how same principals could not be applied to both? That is not a reason to not developing on Rafale.

I'm repeating it. There is no 100% accurate module in DCS. Even if ED works on some professional sim for some country with 100% accurate features and if they work on public version this public version will be different based on publicly available data not on real one even if ED have it done 100% already.

 

My point all this time is how HEATBLUR doing Euro Fighter already has 2/3 work done for Rafale so why not use the opportunity to earn some more money.
Guys have in mind if we want a professional job to be done we have to pay for it. Most of the time new modules financing maintenance and update of the old modules and keep positive motivation for further development. Devs have to live from their work not volunteering or live from charity donations. Same as all of us who work something else.

So why not combining some modules if could be combined? The next logical step will be Gripen for the same reasons. This is a simple economy not military or else decisions. That is how is business done so you keep steady cash flow to keep the company stable and alive. And as I see the interest is here, it is 50/50 so that is a very good ratio to start. With minimum marketing, this could be much more in favor of Rafale.

 

I made my point. Interest is here, business logic as well no matter on few bitching comments. In reality, HB could in the next 3 years easily release 3 modern jet modules, Euro Fighter, Rafale, and Gripen. They will go well with existing maps and future who is in developing. With future F15 and existing F16, F18 from west and MIG 29, SU 27, SU33, and SU35, BTW all are already released as DCS module and are still in RL service, will create great addition for future scenarios on those maps.
I will buy them all 3 no doubt. I will just say HB takes my money.

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Hi, 

It's explained above why no serious simulation can be done for Rafale, even if we all would love it: 

no license possible (Dassault will likely sue any commercial project -> not many Falcon in Flight Simulator either)

no document at all legally available on the Rafale 

no agreement or demand with Armée de l'Air (which does NOT have right to license anything about aircraft by the way, this belongs to the manufacturer )

Most important weapons are different from EF  (mica missiles, Sagem Hammer) (true they share classic and LGB, SCALP is a cusin of storm shdow iirc)

Different systems (and no doc) from EuroFighter: SPECTRA, AESA Radar, Targeting Pods , M88 engine

 

And, besides US fighters, we do not have any high fidelity russian systems after Mi24P and Mig21bis from the 70s, do we?

 

 

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2 hours ago, wormeaten said:

My point all this time is how HEATBLUR doing Euro Fighter already has 2/3 work done for Rafale so why not use the opportunity to earn some more money.

I hope you are kidding. In case you don't, Rafale and Eurofighter started as a common project at the very early stage. Then France separated and both aircrafts have literaly everything different except the most general layout of delta cannard, but even this aerodynamic configuration is very different with specific configuration low wing vs medium wing, different canards configuration and role, different size and mass. Different engines, very different radars, completely different ECM, completely different armament, different pylons configuration, totally different cockpit and avionics. Literally everything what can be different is different in this two.

Making EF means 0% Rafale work is done.


Edited by kseremak
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On 8/6/2021 at 3:49 PM, wormeaten said:

 

All of it you mention is apply to Euro Fighter as well. It is the same age, same generation, and same time frame jet. Almost all weapons are the same or very similar. Lots of shared technology.
So how same principals could not be applied to both? That is not a reason to not developing on Rafale.

I'm repeating it. There is no 100% accurate module in DCS. Even if ED works on some professional sim for some country with 100% accurate features and if they work on public version this public version will be different based on publicly available data not on real one even if ED have it done 100% already.

 

My point all this time is how HEATBLUR doing Euro Fighter already has 2/3 work done for Rafale so why not use the opportunity to earn some more money.
Guys have in mind if we want a professional job to be done we have to pay for it. Most of the time new modules financing maintenance and update of the old modules and keep positive motivation for further development. Devs have to live from their work not volunteering or live from charity donations. Same as all of us who work something else.

So why not combining some modules if could be combined? The next logical step will be Gripen for the same reasons. This is a simple economy not military or else decisions. That is how is business done so you keep steady cash flow to keep the company stable and alive. And as I see the interest is here, it is 50/50 so that is a very good ratio to start. With minimum marketing, this could be much more in favor of Rafale.

 

I made my point. Interest is here, business logic as well no matter on few bitching comments. In reality, HB could in the next 3 years easily release 3 modern jet modules, Euro Fighter, Rafale, and Gripen. They will go well with existing maps and future who is in developing. With future F15 and existing F16, F18 from west and MIG 29, SU 27, SU33, and SU35, BTW all are already released as DCS module and are still in RL service, will create great addition for future scenarios on those maps.
I will buy them all 3 no doubt. I will just say HB takes my money.

Let me reiterate an important factor I had mentioned earlier.

"That way ED is provided with all the necessary data and licenses required to make a full fidelity simulation of the Rafael. "

 

You completely overlooked one very important factor that I mentioned that is very necessary before any company can even consider developing a high fidelity simulation for profit. And that is a LICENSE. If ED or any 3rd party does not acquire a license they can be sued by the entity that owns the rights to said aircraft.

 

Even in old racing games like Grand Turismo for playstaion they could never feature Porsche cars because Porsche would not grant them a license. So the developer got around it by getting a license from RUFF to feature the Porsche models RUFF had modified and sold under the RUFF brand.

 

I am pretty sure True grit had already acquired all of the necessary licensees before they even started work on development of the Euro Fighter to be given the approval by ED.

Heatblur just recently merged with True grit to continue the development together. 

Even Heatblur had its A-6 Intruder full fidelity module project on hold for a while pending they be granted a license to be able to proceed even though they already had enough data.


Edited by Evoman
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18 hours ago, Evoman said:

... licenses ...LICENSE ...

 

Again who said license is not needed. Euro Fighter is already done and the same principles should be worth it for other same-generation jets.
Who are you that you know France will deny license and it is not licensing it is copyrights plus possible NDA as addition with details for keeping certain things under control.
Simply if you are not asking you will not have it for sure and I nowhere see someone ask for it and Franch denying it.
Of course, it is pointless working on something before getting approval but if you are not asking for it is not a reason to abandon such an idea without asking at all, and you cant ask anything without preparation and presentation of your intentions.
Here we are just talking about how this will be a good idea and of course and if you are denied license you know exactly where you are and why without speculation and guessing.

 

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4 minutes ago, wormeaten said:

Euro Fighter is already done and the same principles should be worth it for other same-generation jets.

Not the best example there buddy, the Eurofighter is fully supported by its manufacturer, unlike the Mirage 2000 which can't even be called "Mirage" in DCS specifically because Dassault chose not to collaborate.

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18 hours ago, wormeaten said:

Who are you that you know France will deny license and it is not licensing it is copyrights plus possible NDA as addition with details for keeping certain things under control.
Simply if you are not asking you will not have it for sure and I nowhere see someone ask for it and Franch denying it.

 

/\ Question.... \/ Answer....

18 hours ago, TLTeo said:

...the Mirage 2000 ... can't even be called "Mirage" in DCS specifically because Dassault chose not to collaborate.

If Dassault won't collaborate with the Mirage there is no way they are going to collaborate on a Rafale.  3rd party high fidelity Rafale mods have already been hit with Cease and Desist orders from Dassault.

 

This is the same reason we can't get a full fidelity Flanker of any model.  Russia (since Su is state owned) says no.

 

This is the same reason we can't get a full fidelity F-14D.  US Gov refuses to release the necessary docs.

 

Saying that just because one canard delta was built that all can/should be built is just wrong.

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4 hours ago, Spurts said:

If Dassault won't collaborate with the Mirage there is no way they are going to collaborate on a Rafale.  3rd party high fidelity Rafale mods have already been hit with Cease and Desist orders from Dassault.

 

This is the same reason we can't get a full fidelity F-14D.  US Gov refuses to release the necessary docs.

 

Again missing the point and my statements putting out of context.

As you just confirming what I was talking about the whole time. Just mention two Modules without a license and that didn't stop their release and to be some of the most popular in the DCS world.
If DCS will be developed just fully licensed modules DCS World will stop existing at all long time ago.
I like M-2000 and F-14 modules so as do a lot of others as well. Those two modules are playing some of the major roles in the popularization and expansion of the player base in DCS World. So I don't see a problem why not continuing the same way with Rafale and Green?

Even if you got a license this module doesn't have to be 100% accurate as well because part of the license is to keep control of this publicly available information and the secret one.

 

So let's stop this pointless debate about is it or not the possible development of Rafale or Grepen lets just summarizing the facts.

 

Is it possible to develop Rafale or Grepen?
YES.

 

Is the license obstacle to not developing it?
NO - We got other modules developed without the license like for example here mentioned M-2000 and F-14.

 

Is it possible to made FFM without the license?
YES - FFM is not represented 100% accurate plane it is more like a level of realism and depends only on the development level, more details more work to do.

 

As we are going away from the real intention of this article and going into a completely different field furder discussion is pointless and better focus on something else.
The intention and purpose of this thread are to check the possible interest for developing such a module. I put the idea into HB's head, they could see how interest is existing and is good. Almost 50% of people are already willing to buy such a module what is very good. Now everything is on HB and on plans and resources they have and how this could incorporate into it. As we going away from the theme I decide to close this thread.

 

To HEATBLUR I wish all the best and hoping will seriously think about this idea and soon announce it.

 

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