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Some might think this is nuts, but for some of us....


Gentoo87

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1 hour ago, Gentoo87 said:

As mentioned above the subscription wouldn't be mandatory for anyone.

 

Customers can go about there day just buying modules.

From a personal standpoint I look at is as becoming an investor in DCS's future. I know at some point my contribution to the vision would help things get done, where budget and interest becomes less of a problem. Concerns about whether or not a module will turn a profit will be less of an issue. Especially as we are a very niche group. They can paint a complete picture of a timeline or battlespace, instead of hodge podging random generations of military aircraft pit against each other. 

If you wish, don't call it a subscription; it was just a convenient word we all understand in it's implied use. What about opening an avenue for investors to contribute. 

Explain your point of view?

Simple: having to pay  monthly for the same module is *redacted* among many others. If i pay for it i will pay for it once and it should be mine for ever...(besides internet...but its not like i have a choice)

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5 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

Yes it seems a place like a forum where people come to discuss idea's

  Yes. However, you shouldn't expect a particularly warm welcome on well trod topics.

 

5 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

It's quite strange when people come to them and do that very thing.

  Again, nothing wrong with discussion, but not all ideas/posts are equally meritorious. ED's business model is their business, not ours, persay, they know their income/outflow, we don't nor is it anything we need to know. In particular they don't need us brainstorming on new ways to take our money (they presumably have several people on salary for that who know a helluva lot more about ''the market'' than we do)

 

5 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

Strange... I find it most intriguing people who jump into such conversations and bring a whole lot of nothing to the discussion the most egregious of mouth breathers.

  Welcome to the internet. Also, if you want an echo chamber/safespace where every idea you present will be well received... tbh read only is the only way that's going to happen. I could say the sky is blue and at least three people will attack me one of which will insult my mother.

 

5 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

But eh mouth breathers are everywhere, and we all need to deal with them.

  Ditto for people who think their old shoe ideas are new and exciting.

 

5 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

Explain your point of view?

  Nobody has to explain their point of view. Especially since most anyone active on these forums participated in the last 2-3 of these identical ''business model suggestion'' threads. Search should be in the top right, looks like a magnifying glass. You can see all the back and forth through several dozen pages if you want, and most of these people commented in them, too (including me).


Edited by Mars Exulte
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10 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

 
I'm not asking for free planes, maybe free test drives.

 

The purpose of the subscription would be for people who want to contribute to ED's bottom line with the intent of doing just that. 

Money contributed to developers/workshops budget, might be the difference between hiring one more person to tackle the large amount of work hours to complete a module. 
 

 

Fortunately for everyone, the team at ED (and presumably their 3rd party developers too) have decided to offer "free test drives", even without subscriptions! It's a new program, get to "try and fly" a module for a short trial period. I can't recall details, but it was a recent announcement, and quite popular! I feel that will let people sitting on the fence about a module, can soon try the module and KNOW if they like it or not, and by doing so reduce DCS forum posts by 5% as well! (jk)

 

Ok.... on to your main suggestion... with your more complete explanation... yea, I think the clarification changes how I interpreted your first post rather dramatically. Basically you seem to be suggesting a way for people who have excess money, to help the developers out a bit more. And that you aren't suggesting a different business model.

 

Soooo.... ask Nick Grey to set up an Only Fans account for DCS?  "ooh, see the Tomcat spread it's WINGS!!!"  oh, the Tiger II without it's outer skin!!  Naughty naughty HINDs showing their backsides!!

 

Ok, all jokes aside, I don't really see much problem with affluent afficionados contributing some extra Deutchmarks to the company... but rather than a subscription, just send the company a "donation"... preferably in electronic transfer funds, (and not in glass jars).  Also, while I joke about OnlyFans, a growing number of content producers are getting Patreons and SubscribeStar accounts, where really dedicated fans can donate extra and get small but nice exclusives to feed their thirst for every little scrap of content they can consume.

 

 


Edited by Rick50
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10 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

 You know what I could say would be a good exchange for the monthly contribution. Send us a spending report on the crowd funded money, throw up polls on what you had most interest in your dollars going to next. Lets say we contributed an extra 10k they could spend. They could allocate that money towards bugs, or 8 towards bug fixes, and 2k towards fixing something else blah blah blah

 

 

Eh... well here you are starting to lose me.  I get that you'd want to see a bit of value for the extra money given... but really, I think that a simulation company has enough challenges and headaches to deal with, and having to listen to fans of their work tell the company how it should handle it's internal time allocation... well, no.

 

No. 

 

If I were the owner of ED, or a manager in the company, I'd say a flat "not just no, but HELL NO!!".  Or maybe I'd say "Nuts!"... as quoting General Anthony Clement "Nuts" McAuliffe's famous reply!   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_McAuliffe

 

I do think there's a time and a place for most things, but fans who are not in the company itself, I don't feel should dictate how a company micromanages it's time and resources. Donating $50 to a company should not give outside randos the power to overide owners, investors, managers and directors. Just donate the money and be happy that the company is growing and evolving and giving us more of what we really want!  I'd kinda say the same about spending reports, too. A $50 donation shouldn't entitle someone to internal details of a private company (as opposed to a public company). And making such a report for the public would divert time and human resources away from what really matters: making the pew pew and boom an zoom!

 

I'd suggest instead, maybe for the larger donations, you could receive a limited edition shirt, hat, wall poster or something, you know, a limited edition merch. Something to wear to the next airshow. Donate a hundred k, maybe ED arranges for a flight in a Flanker! But no, I think ED can figure out for itself how to allocate it's people and time, for bug fixing and module creation. As for future modules, there's no lack of threads with people screaming loudly that "THIS, THIS RIGHT HERE NEEDS TO BE THE NEXT MODULE BECAUSE REASONS!!!"   (myself included!). 

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Clearly , with the moving goalposts , this was an ill-thought-out suggestion in the first place . I much prefer the ED professional's carefully mapped development to the "winging it" i'm reading here...

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13 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, all jokes aside, I don't really see much problem with affluent afficionados contributing some extra Deutchmarks to the company... but rather than a subscription, just send the company a "donation"... preferably in electronic transfer funds, (and not in glass jars).  Also, while I joke about OnlyFans, a growing number of content producers are getting Patreons and SubscribeStar accounts, where really dedicated fans can donate extra and get small but nice exclusives to feed their thirst for every little scrap of content they can consume.

 

 

 

This has been thee best idea suggestion I have heard of in relation to this topic.  This would be the best method to further support ED and their efforts for those affluent aficionados without affecting DCS's current business model. 👍

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On 7/23/2021 at 10:01 PM, Munkwolf said:

I think most, or at least the most vocal, are fervently opposed to such a thing.

 

I'm for it. Seems like it'd incentivize more core development and perhaps more attention paid to older and/or less popular modules vs solely relying on sales of new modules. Also seems more sustainable and stable long-term. What's better (for ED *and* the users), all revenue being dictated by the popularity of specific modules coming out every year? Or at least some percentage of that revenue being a more stable and recurring stream from people wanting to invest in the overall vision.. the World part of DCS World?

 

...

 

A racing simulator I've invested a lot of time and money into takes the subscription + selling cars and tracks approach, and has done quite well with it imo.

 

God, my investment there is into the thousands since 2010! But they deliver a great service. I agree a similar thing here would be great and a guaranteed, steady revenue supply for the developers. We, in return, get a major build four times a year. Yes, content is extra too but if this option accelerates the rate of core development, then I am 100% in.


Edited by C3PO
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I would much rather see a "buy back" program where we can sell back to ED our rarely or unused modules at a discount price and then put that towards future modules. say for e.g. . sell back my Dora for a 1/2 0f the price I paid, and that can be credited towards another module. At least then I don't feel like I've wasted my money as much (since there's no return policy)


Edited by Raven434th
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On 7/23/2021 at 10:09 PM, Gentoo87 said:

What say you about a monthly subscription option?

 

In short: NO

 

The moment it goes subscription i'm gone.

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One reason to not choose subscription:  In 2022, you have money, you buy many modules, maybe all the modules. In 2026, your legs get amputated. Or you suddenly face retirement, and can't work anymore. Money isn't just tight... you are drowning in bills you can't pay. Your income is low now, and no visible recovery in sight.

 

Subscription?  Your DCS days are OVER. Even with a fancy gaming computer, doesn't matter because can't pay the subscription price.

 

Buy a module once, keep forever - well, you can't do much with little money... but the DCS modules you have had for the last 3 years will continue to work just fine for many years to come!   Hey, it beats being reduced to watching "reality TV" shows... Yea, maybe you wish for the Typhoon module, and the F-8 Crusader, AH-1 Cobra and F-4 Phantom modules, and you can't afford to buy them. But you can still participate online and singleplayer with your Hornet, Viper, Hind, Tomcat, that you paid for years ago when money was growing on trees!!  And maybe an online buddy can spring for a new F-8 module as a Christmas present or something!

 

Meanwhile, rich people with the local title "El Patrone" can donate to their hearts content, for a life-size cardboard cuttout of a Tomcat spreading it's wings (hmm, might need a really large room for that)

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BTW, if there are enough "rich" DCS fans willing to donate money, maybe they could pool their money together, and assemble a 3rd party dev team to make map modules... like say Korean Peninsula, Vietnam circa 1968, or the Nordic countries like those that an EF2000 Typhoon would look very much at home flying/fighting WW3 !! 

 

There's so many aircraft modules in development, yet I don't hear much about new map projects now that the incredible Syria and Mariannas maps are released. The "South Atlantic" map sounds promising for recreating 1982... but... then what?  I'm just saying that a fantastic future map project could have an amazing effect on DCS, and I think it might not be all that risky.

 

 

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Wow this turned into quite the conversation. 

My idea was to open a portal to contribution from fans/consumers to provide additional spending money to ED's bottom line; not having anything to do with manipulating there time line. 

The newsletter mention was a half spirited joke to send me a piece of paper on where the extra money is going not by the contributors design, more like a fluff piece on thanks for your contribution here is what where doing with it. 

Seems like some have received the idea of it's purpose in accelerating content production and distribution by giving them more money to spend from people who really love and appreciate this project be it by those who have purchased everything or those who just choose to. 

What none of my intentions have to do with is becoming a decision maker in any way shape or form. Either way regardless of money ED would never let it happen; they have their plan. Nor trying to obtain free stuff; why call it a contribution when by this definition it merely becomes another form of trade? 

From what I gather in this string of posts, not many wish to contribute to ED's bottom line outside of purchasing modules, and donating/contributing to their bottom line as a fan/investor seems to be quite out of line. Wish this made sense in my head somewhere but it doesn't. Thank you for all of your thoughts and points of view. 

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We're already paying a one-time subscription to modules that can go offline at any moment if/when the ED servers go offline. If I'm going to spend $60+ on a module I should own it, not rent it with a time-limited "offline mode." 

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There comes a point when a developer needs make good on promises. There comes a point where throwing money at a problem is pointless to the end goal.

We're at that point. We've been at that point for a long time. With the amount of content released, there's no real feasible way to provide a subscription service that doesn't either alienate existing customers or leaves it rendered utterly without value.

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No idea who said anything about rent... purchase your modules... i'm saying contributing otherwise as a subscriber to invest... not renting or borrowing modules...

Value is in the expedient production of modules by having extra funds to get things done quicker.

 

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1 hour ago, Gentoo87 said:

No idea who said anything about rent... purchase your modules... i'm saying contributing otherwise as a subscriber to invest... not renting or borrowing modules...

Value is in the expedient production of modules by having extra funds to get things done quicker.

 

 

You never actually "buy" a module, you are just granted an unlimited licence to use that module.

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Modules: F/A-18C / AV-8B / F-16 / F-15E / F-4E (when it lands) / Persian Gulf / Syria / Nevada / Sinai / South Atlantic

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15 minutes ago, C3PO said:

You never actually "buy" a module, you are just granted an unlimited licence to use that module.

 

Unlimited until the servers go offline, at which point it becomes limited. If the servers don't come back online, or you don't reconnect, they're unusable. By definition, that is not anywhere near unlimited. It's limited by requiring an internet connection, and it is limited by a timeout if no internet connection is made after a set time. 


Edited by Nealius
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2 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:


Value is in the expedient production of modules by having extra funds to get things done quicker.

 

Not really? In fact, ED tried expedience once.

We got the Viper launch.🙃

Paying a nominal monthly fee to get a module out sooner? Cool, most would rather wait for a quality produce, anyways. ED has stated funding isn't an issue, anyways. You'd have to give the userbase something a lot more practical and quantifiable to justify it. Doing so could alienate the existing userbase. To ensure that, it would have to be so meaningless as to draw the questioning of its existence. Besides, how many people own everything? There's a better place to start if you're looking to hurl money at ED.


Edited by MiG21bisFishbedL
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Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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Ya know, I just had a thought about all of this... with all the talks of subscription plans, realistically, why couldn't Eagle Dynamics, or any of the 3rd party devs just set up a Patreon Account that allows us to get some perks for helping them keep the lights on? Such as merch, special liveries for the supporters, access to aircraft undergoing certain levels of closed testing, etc? Sure, it's not the most popular option, but if we're really honest here, for some of the devs, it might help them with funding to get more talent onto a project, and it realistically doesn't have to be much in terms of what people toss in, say like a couple bucks per month, with more perks going to those that offer more per month. I'd certainly be ok with it... but then again I'm one of those rare nuts, so, what do I know?

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Doing so could alienate the existing userbase.

 

Things could go either way there, but if the 3rd Party Devs did it, they could benefit from multiple people having earlier than normal access to a module that's being built, and help them test it to minimize the bugs that come with it. More machines to test on is not a bad thing.

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6 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

Value is in the expedient production of modules by having extra funds to get things done quicker.

  More money very literally does not mean more things getting done quicker. Diminishing returns is a thing. 10 coders working on a physics engine is not inherently inferior to 500 coders working on a physics engine because all those different people still have to coordinate.

 

  When you're building a house, you don't get to ''speed up'' or bypass laying a concrete foundation. You don't get to build the roof at the same time as you run the plumbing. Things happen in a logical progressive order for a reason.

 

  Ultimately, the people running this know a lot more about what they need and would benefit from then any of us, and these ''every two weeks'' threads where people propose ''alternative business models'' are ridiculous.

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Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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2 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

 

  More money very literally does not mean more things getting done quicker. Diminishing returns is a thing. 10 coders working on a physics engine is not inherently inferior to 500 coders working on a physics engine because all those different people still have to coordinate.

 

  When you're building a house, you don't get to ''speed up'' or bypass laying a concrete foundation. You don't get to build the roof at the same time as you run the plumbing. Things happen in a logical progressive order for a reason.

 

  Ultimately, the people running this know a lot more about what they need and would benefit from then any of us, and these ''every two weeks'' threads where people propose ''alternative business models'' are ridiculous.

In theory, it could. However, that's predicated on ED getting a lot more income. An amount they simply aren't going to get from a small monthly fee from a small select group of the player base.

 

And besides, ED has stated they're fine in terms of finances.

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Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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There is only one game that has lived a lot with monthly sub and its still thriving but that game still has that monthly sub model altho it has been revised cause they started losing players.

Then there were many many games that tried that subs model and lost their players, and eventually died and now they are forgotten.

 

I don't think DCS is that popular for monthly sub payment model.

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17 hours ago, Gentoo87 said:

From what I gather in this string of posts, not many wish to contribute to ED's bottom line outside of purchasing modules, and donating/contributing to their bottom line as a fan/investor seems to be quite out of line. Wish this made sense in my head somewhere but it doesn't. Thank you for all of your thoughts and points of view. 

 

 

The problem is probably not about what people "wish" they could do, but rather what they "can" do. A lot of people who look like they are doing quite well, are actually drowning in debt badly. Imagine the wife finding out you are paying $20 / month to a private corporation, not to buy, but to "donate".. she might have a LOT to say about that. I don't know why you'd think that this would be a common thing, it's not to cure kids dying of cancer, or bringing eyesight corrections to the blind living in the 3rd world... or food for Africa, medicines to the Middle East.... But again, no one is stopping you, or anyone else, donating money to ED or it's 3rd party devs. And the number of such donations would be small enough to not really justify a huge effort to set up a program or subscription

 

 

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On 7/24/2021 at 9:57 AM, Mars Exulte said:

If you want to support them, buy another module/campaign. If you have them all, donate to a friend. If you have no friends, donate to a rando on the forums. There, problem solved.

This. You can even buy the same module multiple times to "vote with a wallet". That way you can already "support" ED daily, weekly, monthly, however you want.

 

btw: There is something money can buy - better workers.


Edited by draconus
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