New PC Build!!!

[tower59]

Hey, guys! For the last two years, my son & I have been building an F/A-18C simulator. (See link below for that thread.) Now, it's time to stop thinking about plywood and aluminum and think instead about the PC. Our goal is to have a system that will drive a VR setup with good resolution and smooth frame rate. We've invested two years and countless man hours, and I don't want to skimp on a PC that doesn't deliver. That being said, I have almost zero real experience with PCs and don't want to burn dollars that won't have benefit for a dedicated DCS machine. (Have owned Macs since 1984 but do use a PC at work.) We don't want to build a PC and likely will buy one from Xidax, since they seem to be well regarded and have a great warranty. Planning around $5,000 for the system. I want to future-proof the system as much as practical and prefer not to run out of RAM or storage in a year and have to mess with upgrades. We would greatly appreciate any suggestions for the build. Here are the options and prices. We appreciate any and all suggestions. How would you build this system?

Xidax X-6

• GPU: NVIDIA 3090 24GB GDDR6X
• CPU: Intel Core I9 10900K 5.3GHZ or Intel Core I9 11900K 5.3 GHZ (+$127)
• Motherboard options: Asrock Z590 Phantom Gaming 4AC, MSI Z590-A Pro (+$16), ASUS Z590 Prime-P (+$16), MSI Z590 Pro Wifi (+$30), MSI MPG Z490 Gaming Edge Wifi (+$42), MSI MEG Z590 Unify(+$217), MSI MEG Z490 Godlike Wifi (+$529), MSI MEG Z590 ACE (+$334), MSI MEG Z590 Godlike (+$822)
• Memory: Xidax Extreme DDR4 3200MHZ 32GB (4 x 8GB), or 64 GB (4 x 16GB, +$197), or Trident Z DDR4 3600MHZ G.Skill 32GB (4 x 8 GB, +$51), or 64 GB (4 x 16GB, +$277)
• Power Supply: Seasonic Focus Gold 550W, Seasonic Gold 750W ($47), Seasonic Focus Plus 850W Gold (+$77), Seasonic Focus Gold 1000W (+$107)
• Storage: Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVME SSD vs 980 PRO vs WD Black SN 850 NVME Gen 4 M.2. Size? 1 TB x 2? 
• Cooling: Be Quiet Rock Slim, Be Quiet! Dark Rock TF 220W (+$74), or DeepCool Castle 360EX 360mm (+$140)
• Paste: Is thermal paste worth it for $20 for CPU or $50 for GPU?

 

Many thanks for your suggestions!!!

 

 

 

 

[LucShep]

Wow... some of those prices are questionable.
Does it really have to be a system from Xidax?

[tower59]

Those prices listed are the differential price over the part initially selected at base. We don't want to build our own PC, and I want a reputable company with support to help us if we have any problems. Would be interested in looking at other well-regarded companies if there is an issue with Xidax. My understanding is that Xidax has a great reputation with real, live support.

[agrasyuk]

Top level build, can't get better then that. Boutique builders will always charge significant sum for the service so there is that. 

 

CPUs are near identical,  since budget seems to not be an issue I'd go for the 11th series. 

32 GB of RAM will be plenty. To my knowledge DCS doesn't use that much. If this PC going to be used for other compute intensive tasks then 64gb may be of slight help.

Storage is pletiful, 

Motherboard, I'd say dont go overboard, something in 250$ range will be more then sufficient.

PSU, since you going for 3090 you have no option to go any less then 850W

Additional charge for thermal paste seems very questionable.

[LucShep]

On 7/24/2021 at 9:18 PM, tower59 said:

Those prices listed are the differential price over the part initially selected at base. We don't want to build our own PC, and I want a reputable company with support to help us if we have any problems. Would be interested in looking at other well-regarded companies if there is an issue with Xidax. My understanding is that Xidax has a great reputation with real, live support.

Alright, I get ya.

FWIW, from that list this is what I'd go for:

 

• GPU: NVIDIA 3090 24GB GDDR6X (well... as of today, whatever the variant, it's simply the best?)
• CPU: Intel Core I9 10900K 5.3GHZ (IMO, it is the superior CPU, having more cores (10c/20t) and similar IPC - for more info, see comparison HERE)
• Motherboard options:  MSI MPG Z490 Gaming Edge Wifi (+$42) (12+1+1 VRM, 60A stages, good heatsinks; more than enough for the 10900K, even if all core OC@5.1 - see HERE)
• Memory:  Gskill Trident Z DDR4 3600MHZ G.Skill 64 GB (4 x 16GB, +$277)  (no idea what's "Xidax Extreme" RAM, but Gskill Trident Z 3600 is worth it)
• Power Supply: Seasonic Focus Gold 1000W (+$107) (RTX3090 + 10900K combo makes for a very, very power hungry beast - definitely get the 1000W)
• Storage: Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVME 2 TB  (more speed than you'll ever need for both reads+writes, no real point going above this IMO - but please do get the 2TB)
• Cooling: DeepCool Castle 360EX 360mm (+$140) (not much option here if you want good cooling...)
• Paste: Is thermal paste worth it for $20 for CPU or $50 for GPU? (...no it's not, IMO - this is very questionable)

Edited July 26, 2021 by LucShep

[reece146]

Given context of build, this is what I'd do (i.e. don't fawk around):

 

• 11900k
• Spend some time researching the specific make/model of 3090 that will be offered.
• 64+GB of fast, low latency ram.
  • Do your research/calcs on what works best with Intel 11th Gen - probably want 3200CL14 or 3600CL16 but verify.
• Pick a motherboard with as many PCI-e slots as practical.
  • At some point you'll likely want to integrate new equipment like some crazy sound card, more high speed USB buses, custom boards with GPIO break out, whatever, etc. No Mini-ITX.
  • I'd take a look at the motherboard manuals to see how the PCI-e slots have address lanes allocated depending on how they are populated.
  • Also research what sound is included on the motherboard.
    • Consider using something else depending on what comes with the board (research/reputation of onboard).
• 1000W PSU (see context)
• Largest, highest rated (Wattage) air cooler you can get. I'm a big fan of the Dark Rock Pro series - have a few.
• The cost for the thermal paste: that's new tube of paste plus labour to reapply I guess? Personally I wouldn't bother with it on new components and/or do it myself at some point down the road.

 

HTH

Edited July 25, 2021 by reece146

[tower59]

Thanks for all who offered suggestions. We ended going with:

•Intel i9 11900K

•NVIDIA RTX 3090

•64GB RAM 3600MHZ

•MSI MEG Z590 UNIFY motherboard

•WD BLACK SN850 NVME GEN4 1TB M.2 [for Windows OS]

•WD BLACK SN850 NVME GEN4 2TB M.2 [for DCS]

•1000W power supply

•DEEPCOOL CASTLE 360EX 360MM 

•Extra fans

 

Thanks again!

 

[Razorback]

I am also building my new DCS computer :

Here is the list of my current choice.

Comments are more than welcome 

CPU : Intel i9-10900K 3.7 Ghz

GPU : Nvidia RTX 3090 FE

Mother board : Asus Rog Maximus XIII Hero

RAM : G.Skill Trident Z 32 Go (2x 16 Go) DDR4 4000 MHz CL19

Cooling  : Corsair hydro H150i RGB Pro XT

Edited August 14, 2021 by Razorback

[VpR81]

1 hour ago, Razorback said:

CPU : Intel i9-10900K 3.7 Ghz

Since your planning for a 3090, i doubt money is an issue. So my question would be, why not going for a 11900K? Or a Ryzen 5900X or 5950X as these, from all i've read, should perform better for DCS. Just wondering...

[Razorback]

10 hours ago, VpR81 said:

Since your planning for a 3090, i doubt money is an issue. So my question would be, why not going for a 11900K? Or a Ryzen 5900X or 5950X as these, from all i've read, should perform better for DCS. Just wondering...

What’s the most advantage of the i9-11900k compared to the 10900k for DCS?

[VpR81]

11 minutes ago, Razorback said:

What’s the most advantage of the i9-11900k compared to the 10900k for DCS?

I don't know if the 11900K performs better in DCS, it's just that i wondered why someone does not choose the newer gen CPU when money isn't an issue. The Ryzen Zen3 are said to perform better in DCS, that's what i meant. Is the 10900K better for DCS than the 11900K? I'm realy interested in this topic, as i'm thinking about upgrading my system as well.

Edited August 15, 2021 by VpR81

[Razorback]

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-11900K-vs-Intel-Core-i9-10900K/4110vs4071
 

It seems that when using Only one core the i9-11900k is faster...when we know that DCS is currently running only with one core (before The arrival of Vulkan on DCS), it should be an advantage to run with it...
If I am not mistaken...

[VpR81]

3 hours ago, Razorback said:

It seems that when using Only one core the i9-11900k is faster.

Wich again lets me wonder why you'd pick the 10900K? If i understand your benchmark link properly the 11900K is the better CPU, also for DCS. Due to 8c/16t instead of 10c/20t it may have a little disadvantage compared to the 10900K when DCS switches to Vulcan, but only god (and ED) knows when this will finally happen. Besides that, i'm curious why you (and others) go the Intel route and not the AMD route? Don't get me wrong, i'm also on Intel right now (6800K) and i'd like to stay with them as i'm still unsure how OC with AMD works, but after all i've read and heard i'm realy considering a 5900X or 5950X for my next PC. Honestly i'd prefer HEDT series with 8 RAM slots and Quad-Channel, but the AMD Threadripper series is horribly expensive and Intels LGA 2066 is outdated and will propably end in the nearby future...

Edited August 15, 2021 by VpR81

[Razorback]

I always had Pc with Intel CPu. I currently have an i7-8700k, a 1080ti GPU and all is running very well with all DCS settings in High or even ultra.

Multimonitor and my main screen is a Samsung G9 Odyssey.
I will migrate to VR  end of 2021 and that’s why I want to upgrade my computer.

I always had good results with all my intel CPUs and it’s aslo why I don’t want to migrate to another system.
 

And you are correct, nobody knows when Vulkan will be up and running on DCS...We don’t have received any updates regarding this topics since a very long time despite the fact that ED has annouced Vulkan for Q3 2021!

[VpR81]

Valid point there. I've almost only had Intel CPU's as well, just one time i choosed AMD over Intel when "everyone" ran the AMD Athlon 64. Still went with the AMD Opteron 1220 instead of the Athlon64. I've also always been happy with my Intel systems. My 1080Ti died early this year, but i was able to run my Reverb G2 at low-medium settings and acceptable fps with it. CPU is oc'ed to 4.2GHz (all cores). Now with the 3090 i still have Steam SS reduced to 60%, but quite a few DCS settings (Textures, Terrain Textures, visible range) on high now and still my fps are slightly better than with the 1080Ti. Even with that stone aged and only moderate overclocked CPU (was surprised by myself). But i'm sure my VR experience will be much better with a newer CPU, wich is why i'm thinking about an upgrade too. However, i'm considering a Ryzen 9 but i'm still not 100% sure wich CPU to choose in the end and, equally important, when to upgrade. AMD or Intel? Get it soon or wait and see what Intel provides with those LGA 1700 and LGA 1800 sockets. LGA 1800 might still be too far in the future, but LGA 1700 will most likely be released at the end of 2021 (i think i remember to read Q4 2021 somewhere), so 'im not sure if it's a good idea to buy a LGA 1200 CPU now. If LGA 1700 is significant better than LGA 1200, it's propably worth getting one of those CPU's. If not, LGA 1200 CPU's (and Mainboards) will propably still see a significant pricedrop when LGA 1700 is released. I know there is no perfect time to upgrade a PC, but that close to a new socket beeing released? ...it's propably not a good time i guess.

 

1 hour ago, Razorback said:

We don’t have received any updates regarding this topics since a very long time despite the fact that ED has annouced Vulkan for Q3 2021!

Q3 is over in pretty much exactly 6 weeks. Wasn't it Q4 for Vulkan and Q3 for the Apache? Can't remember, maybe i'm confusing these two. Anyways, i highly doubt that we will see Vulkan for DCS in 2021.

[LucShep]

 

On 8/15/2021 at 3:04 PM, VpR81 said:

Wich again lets me wonder why you'd pick the 10900K? If i understand your benchmark link properly the 11900K is the better CPU, also for DCS. Due to 8c/16t instead of 10c/20t it may have a little disadvantage compared to the 10900K when DCS switches to Vulcan, but only god (and ED) knows when this will finally happen. Besides that, i'm curious why you (and others) go the Intel route and not the AMD route? Don't get me wrong, i'm also on Intel right now (6800K) and i'd like to stay with them as i'm still unsure how OC with AMD works, but after all i've read and heard i'm realy considering a 5900X or 5950X for my next PC. Honestly i'd prefer HEDT series with 8 RAM slots and Quad-Channel, but the AMD Threadripper series is horribly expensive and Intels LGA 2066 is outdated and will propably end in the nearby future...

 

 

The difference in performance between 10900K and 11900K is marginal, be it in single-threaded or multi-threaded apps (see here), it's like splitting hairs.

So go for which one gets to be more affordable.

 

Having said that, and having choices, I would go for neither of them.... have you noticed the i9 10850K is selling at $405.00?   

Makes the 10850K a far better investment than either 10900K or 11900K, also over the Ryzen 7 5800X, considering all things.

I'd go instead for the i9 10850K because 1) it's an i9 10900K just with less 100MHz on stock turbo clocks (5.2Ghz instead of 5.3Ghz) which is same as none difference on a chip of this caliber (10 cores/20 threads and also overclockable), and 2) it's less expensive than other i9 "K" counterparts, for what translates into the same stock performance in real life usage (0,7% average difference, see here).

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by LucShep

[Razorback]

49 minutes ago, LucShep said:

 

 

The difference in performance between 10900K and 11900K is marginal, be it in single-threaded or multi-threaded apps (see here), it's like splitting hairs.

So go for which one gets to be more affordable.

 

Having said that, and having choices, I would go for neither of them.... have you noticed the i9 10850K is selling at $435.00?   

Makes the 10850K a far better investment than either 10900K or 11900K, also over the Ryzen 7 5800X, considering all things.

I'd go instead for the i9 10850K because 1) it's an i9 10900K just with less 100MHz on stock turbo clocks (5.2Ghz instead of 5.3Ghz) which is same as none difference on a chip of this caliber (10 cores/20 threads and also overclockable), and 2) it's less expensive than other i9 "K" counterparts, for performance that translates into the same performance in real life usage (just ~0,7% average difference, see here).

 

 

Thx for the info, really interesting...
I will further check all these before placing any order!

[Vlad333]

Core i9-11900K enables PCIe 4.0 SSD

[VpR81]

14 hours ago, LucShep said:

The difference in performance between 10900K and 11900K is marginal, be it in single-threaded or multi-threaded apps (see here), it's like splitting hairs.

So go for which one gets to be more affordable.

 

Having said that, and having choices, I would go for neither of them.... have you noticed the i9 10850K is selling at $435.00?   

Makes the 10850K a far better investment than either 10900K or 11900K, also over the Ryzen 7 5800X, considering all things.

I'd go instead for the i9 10850K because 1) it's an i9 10900K just with less 100MHz on stock turbo clocks (5.2Ghz instead of 5.3Ghz) which is same as none difference on a chip of this caliber (10 cores/20 threads and also overclockable), and 2) it's less expensive than other i9 "K" counterparts, for what translates into the same stock performance in real life usage (0,7% average difference, see here).

The 10900K is only 9€ cheaper than the 11900K over here, so it would be a no brainer if i had to choose one of both. Especially since Rocket Lake supports PCI 4.0 while Comet-Lake S is still PCIe 3.0. Indeed very interesting info about the 10850K, i wasn't aware of it beeing a i9. This made me google if there is an equal CPU of the newer generation (i.e. 11850K) but it seems like there is none. Anyways, found out that LGA1700 socket with Alder-Lake are most likely beeing released prior to Christmas 2021 and also will most likely support DDR5 RAM. There are also rumors that Alder-Lake may already have PCIe 5.0 support, so i'm realy curious to see if this turns out to be true. Still skeptical about PCIe 5.0 to be released prior to Raptor-Lake, but we'll see. JEDEC already confirmed DDR5-6400 and that DDR5 will go up to 8400 MHz in the nearby future. No way i'm gonna upgrade my PC with a DDR4 system when DDR5 and maybe even PCIe 5.0 are already on the horizon. I think my system will be able to run all my games for the next 3-4 months, so no hurry. Thanks for pushing me in that direction and for making me google the latest news, otherwise i could have ended with a Ryzen 9 and then beeing frustrated that i upgraded when the new technology arrives only 2 or 3 months later.

[LucShep]

14 hours ago, VpR81 said:

The 10900K is only 9€ cheaper than the 11900K over here, so it would be a no brainer if i had to choose one of both. Especially since Rocket Lake supports PCI 4.0 while Comet-Lake S is still PCIe 3.0. Indeed very interesting info about the 10850K, i wasn't aware of it beeing a i9. This made me google if there is an equal CPU of the newer generation (i.e. 11850K) but it seems like there is none. Anyways, found out that LGA1700 socket with Alder-Lake are most likely beeing released prior to Christmas 2021 and also will most likely support DDR5 RAM. There are also rumors that Alder-Lake may already have PCIe 5.0 support, so i'm realy curious to see if this turns out to be true. Still skeptical about PCIe 5.0 to be released prior to Raptor-Lake, but we'll see. JEDEC already confirmed DDR5-6400 and that DDR5 will go up to 8400 MHz in the nearby future. No way i'm gonna upgrade my PC with a DDR4 system when DDR5 and maybe even PCIe 5.0 are already on the horizon. I think my system will be able to run all my games for the next 3-4 months, so no hurry. Thanks for pushing me in that direction and for making me google the latest news, otherwise i could have ended with a Ryzen 9 and then beeing frustrated that i upgraded when the new technology arrives only 2 or 3 months later.

I agree.

If you can wait some few more months for Intel 12th gen, then please do so.

Be patient and wait, to see how much better they'll be for games/sims (which they should be), and if they'll be more expensive (which they'll certainly be).

 

But then we have to consider total budget of potential buyer, and the prices of today versus what is expected, for upcoming DDR5 RAM and 12th gen Intel.

Maybe you're an extreme enthusiast who will gladly pay for the next new thing and every possible performance increase or, instead, you may be someone who is more concerned about price-to-performance and diminishing returns.

 

First, consider the RAM (memory).

DDR5 is expected to be not just faster but also a lot more expensive, over 1.5x (+50%) more expensive than DDR4.

If you're buying 64GB of RAM, it means that instead of ~350,00 €ur (for DDR4) you may have to spend over 525,00 €ur (for DRR5) for that same capacity.

Performance difference between, say, DDR4 3600Mhz CL18 and DDR5 6400Mhz CL40 should be pretty big on paper, but how much of a difference is translated in practice (and with gaming) is yet to be seen.

 

Second, consider the price of CPUs (processors).

In my area, the prices of Intel i9 "K" CPUs are like this right now:

• i9 11900K = 560,00 €ur
• i9 11900KF = 560,00 €ur
• i9 10900K = 490,00 €ur
• i9 10900KF = 450,00 €ur
• I9 10850K = 405,00 €ur
• i9 10850KA = 405,00 €ur

Those six processors right there will all perform about the same. The plain bare truth is that, in practice, 99,9% of users in these forums won't be able to see any difference whatsoever - you'll need to pull benchmarking numbers to perceive it, and realize that differences are marginal. 

 

Pesonally, all I care about is gaming performance (for the best price), and PCIe 4.0 makes ZERO difference in gaming, today and for quite a while yet.

Currently, GPUs don't perform any better with PCIe 4.0 versus 3.0. And games don't see any difference either on NVMe PCIe 4.0 versus 3.0 (actually, not even to Sata SSD!). 

If you're someone who's time, salary and profits depend on how fast lots of data is processed on (more expensive) storage, then yes, investing on PCIe 4.0 hardware will make all the sense. Otherwise, right now, it's a bit of a waste.

 

Now, the upcoming 12th gen CPUs of Intel.... (cue singing angels)

The one which substitutes all of those above, the i9 12900K, will feature 8 big cores (for performance), 8 small cores (for power efficiency), and 24 threads, with an all-core boost clock of 5GHz, a 1-2 core boost clock of 5.3GHz, and a 3.7GHz base clock.

Yes, 12th gen Intel is a revolution, the upcoming i9 12900K is an 8 (+8) core and 24 threads CPU.

And its price will change accordingly - expected to have a price tag between a 12 core and a 16 core CPU. If so, that means it may cost over 700,00 €ur!

 

If so, if such prices happen to be like it's been rumoured, then that's well over 70% more expensive than the i9 10850K/KA that you can get right now. Which also works with far less expensive DDR4 RAM (that you may fit in the price difference of CPU alone).  

My prediction only, but I really doubt that 12th gen Intel + DDR5 RAM we'll bring anything more than 15%~20% of practical performance increase (and that's pushing) in something like DCS World. ....I do hope to be wrong!

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by LucShep

[Razorback]

Thx a lot for your analyse LucShep. For sure it's never a good time to upgrade your sim PC because we know that something new will come in the following months. A new GPU (ike the RTX 4090), a new Intel CPU,...

At one moment you have to decide what to do. I have made the decision to build my new PC before the end of the year. I am also quite pessimistic about the prices of electronics and it is certain that the new items will still be above the current prices (which are already above the "normal"). My wallet has a limit to how much I can spend versus how much I can make...

 

[VpR81]

13 hours ago, LucShep said:

f you can wait some few more months for Intel 12th gen, then please do so.

Be patient and wait, to see how much better they'll be for games/sims (which they should be), and if they'll be more expensive (which they'll certainly be).

 

But then we have to consider total budget of potential buyer, and the prices of today versus what is expected, for upcoming DDR5 RAM and 12th gen Intel.

Maybe you're an extreme enthusiast who will gladly pay for the next new thing and every possible performance increase or, instead, you may be someone who is more concerned about price-to-performance and diminishing returns.

Imo it is well worth to wait 2 or 3 months for Alder-Lake and DDR5, even if it's only to see if Rocket-Lake / Comet-Lake and DDR4 will have a price drop. When both get released, one can still choose the older generation of CPU and RAM if it's not worth to pay the higher price for the new ones. It's just one of my principles, not to invest any money in a technology that is going to end soon while the new one is already on the horizon (well, except for cars as i love oldtimers). And when i build a new PC, i'm always planning for the future to make it last as long as possible. If that system lasts me three, four or even 5 years with a later installed 14th gen CPU, imo it was worth to spend the higher price in the new tech. Always skipping one or 2 generations of GPU's, so the NVIDIA 40xx series is nothing i consider. LGA 2011-3 is my first socket ever, for wich i didn't purchase a newer CPU later. With LGA 1200 there is no room for an upgrade anymore, since there will be no more CPUs beeing developed for that socket and it may die soon after LGA 1700 has been released. LGA 1700 is planned to house 12th, 13th and 14th gen Core (Alder-Lake, Raptor-Lake and Meteor-Lake - Lunar-Lake is then planned for LGA1800 in 2023). I know, it's just a roadmap wich is certainly subject to change in the future. Maybe there won't be any need to replace the CPU within the next 2 or 3 years, but if.. it is good to have the possibility without rebuilding the complete system imo. I guess that, compared to most people, i just have a different (weird?) philosophy when it comes to PC upgrades.

 

13 hours ago, LucShep said:

DDR5 is expected to be not just faster but also a lot more expensive, over 1.5x (+50%) more expensive than DDR4.

If you're buying 64GB of RAM, it means that instead of ~350,00 €ur (for DDR4) you may have to spend over 525,00 €ur (for DRR5) for that same capacity.

Performance difference between, say, DDR4 3600Mhz CL18 and DDR5 6400Mhz CL40 should be pretty big on paper, but how much of a difference is translated in practice (and with gaming) is yet to be seen.

Very true. I've read, that DDR5 of the same speed (i.e. DDR5-4000 vs. DDR4-4000) should have a 37% higher performance than DDR4. So DDR5-6400 should be significant faster than everything DDR4 has to offer. But as you said, on paper and it is yet to be seen how much of a difference it makes in games/apps. But i'm confident there will be a good increase in performance, especially when DDR5-8400 will arrive. DDR5 is said to be the biggest step ever achieved with RAM, but this also has to be proven practically.

 

13 hours ago, LucShep said:

Second, consider the price of CPUs (processors).

In my area, the prices of Intel i9 "K" CPUs are like this right now:

• i9 11900K = 560,00 €ur
• i9 11900KF = 560,00 €ur
• i9 10900K = 490,00 €ur
• i9 10900KF = 450,00 €ur
• I9 10850K = 405,00 €ur
• i9 10850KA = 405,00 €ur

This is very interseting, as the 10900K is 520,-€ and the 11900K is 529,-€ over here. 10850K is at 459,- € over here, so not that much of a difference as it is in your area. Boxed with cooler (i know, no one needs that), the 10900K is 607,-€ and the 11900K is 579,-. So even cheaper than the 10900K, wich imo is ridiculous. With that pricelist you mentioned, the 10900K would indeed be the better choice and the 10850K would definately the best choice of all, no doubt.  

 

13 hours ago, LucShep said:

Now, the upcoming 12th gen CPUs of Intel.... (cue singing angels)

The one which substitutes all of those above, the i9 12900K, will feature 8 big cores (for performance), 8 small cores (for power efficiency), and 24 threads, with an all-core boost clock of 5GHz, a 1-2 core boost clock of 5.3GHz, and a 3.7GHz base clock.

Yes, 12th gen Intel is a revolution, the upcoming i9 12900K is an 8 (+8) core and 24 threads CPU.

And its price will change accordingly - expected to have a price tag between a 12 core and a 16 core CPU. If so, that means it may cost over 700,00 €ur!

 

If so, if such prices happen to be like it's been rumoured, then that's well over 70% more expensive than the i9 10850K/KA that you can get right now. Which also works with far less expensive DDR4 RAM (that you may fit in the price difference of CPU alone).  

My prediction only, but I really doubt that 12th gen Intel + DDR5 RAM we'll bring anything more than 15%~20% of practical performance increase (and that's pushing) in something like DCS World. ....I do hope to be wrong!

Totally agree. But you also have to see, that those assumed 15-20% of performance increase is not a thing for me, as i'm coming from a 6800K and the increase in performance should be significant higher for me. Also, i'm playing plenty of other games as well, so for these there should also be a significant advantage over the older gen CPU's. Hopefully. The pricetag of the new CPUs, RAM and Mainboards is definately a huge thing to consider, no doubt about that. I'm planning to spend roughly 1500-1800€ for the new hardware when i upgrade. Point is, that i'm already running a MSI Suprim 3090, pretty new SSDs and a brand new BeQuiet 1200W Platinium PSU, so i can spent the complete budget for new MB, CPU and RAM only (well, new cooler as well as LGA1700 will have a different footprint than 37,5mm x 37,5mm Intel uses since LGA775), wich (i hope) should give me plenty of room for the new system. And yes, aiming for the 12900K and 64GB DDR5-6400 of course. On the other hand, i can absolutely understand when someone does not want to spend the money for the new stuff, especially if he also has to purchase a new GPU these days.

 

Again Sir, thank you very much for that interesting discussion and plenty of information, as well as for convincing me not to go the AMD route. Was realy helpful for me!

Edited August 17, 2021 by VpR81

[LucShep]

6 hours ago, VpR81 said:

Totally agree. But you also have to see, that those assumed 15-20% of performance increase is not a thing for me, as i'm coming from a 6800K and the increase in performance should be significant higher for me. Also, i'm playing plenty of other games as well, so for these there should also be a significant advantage over the older gen CPU's. Hopefully. The pricetag of the new CPUs, RAM and Mainboards is definately a huge thing to consider, no doubt about that. I'm planning to spend roughly 1500-1800€ for the new hardware when i upgrade. Point is, that i'm already running a MSI Suprim 3090, pretty new SSDs and a brand new BeQuiet 1200W Platinium PSU, so i can spent the complete budget for new MB, CPU and RAM only (well, new cooler as well as LGA1700 will have a different footprint than 37,5mm x 37,5mm Intel uses since LGA775), wich (i hope) should give me plenty of room for the new system. And yes, aiming for the 12900K and 64GB DDR5-6400 of course. On the other hand, i can absolutely understand when someone does not want to spend the money for the new stuff, especially if he also has to purchase a new GPU these days.

 

Broadwelll-E, like Haswell-E before it, was ahead of its time IMO.  

For years I overclocked Xeons bought 2nd hand (perfect hot-rods, utterly reliable) and most of these type of "not-mainstream" overbuilt processors are still kinda special to me (a shame that they were locked behind high prices).
That 6800K was really good.  6 cores and 12 threads with great IPC for the time and, most of all, quad-channel DDR4! (years later we still don't have it in mainstream CPUs)

 

Your case is a particular one, you fit in the profile of an HEDT user investing for the longer term.

Those are good points and, yes, you'd be better going for DDR5 RAM and 12th gen Intel i9 12900K or i7 12700K (which I suspect will become the most targeted).

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by LucShep

[BitMaster]

From my POV, it will take at least till 2023 until DDR5 is a practical thing to do. 2022 will be the year of high priced and highly hyped modules, Paper Launches and what not else.

 

Also, in order to be faster and lower latency, in the past you also had to wait two years until DDR4 exceeded DDR3, DDR surpassed DDR2... in real life. I assume the same will happen with DDR4->DDR5.

 

PCIe5 sounds cool, if it wasn't so expensive for the board makers. Signal integrity once more needs to be pushed beyond current limits for doubling the bandwidth, it doesn't come for free. If GPU's would adopt PCIe5 and could run happily @ x8 it would mean we had finally had a 2nd slot available again for high bandwidth AIB ( NVMe, 2nd GPU, Raid Card, 10-40GB NIC, etc.. )

I think, until end of 2022, nothing much will really happen. with those two 

 

 

I am still battling with myself what to buy:  5900X-64GB ( 3200/14or16 or 3600/16 ?? )-Gigabyte Master X570S ....or a simple MacBook Air M1, 16GB, 512GBSSD...or wait for the MacBook Pro 14" M1X.....heck...I am really torn apart but neither DDR4/5 or PCIe4/5 question is a real factor for now. If, then it is M1's brutal performance and architectural advantages.

The 5900X as a 12core will make my life with VMware easier, M1 ARM is a VMware brick , for DCS a 6-8 core is plenty in my use case. 64GB is the minimum I want, I actually think about 128GB 3200/16 which is about the same as 64GB of fast 3200/3600 memory. But then 128GB and only 12 cores, might as well take the 5950X and call it a day.... I am so confused what I shall spend the bucks on. Where is my Wollmilchsau-Gaming&Work PC that is portable too ( now Google that term up   )

 

The only thing sure is I a am not buying a new GPU until prices come down or I can get twice the power of my 1080ti for less than 1k€, mabye a 5060ti or 9600AMD in the far future  LoL.

[LucShep]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:13 PM, BitMaster said:

The only thing sure is I a am not buying a new GPU until prices come down or I can get twice the power of my 1080ti for less than 1k€, mabye a 5060ti or 9600AMD in the far future  LoL.

 

Right on, brother.

That's exactly where I stand right now as well (firmly stuck with my 5700XT, which still chugs along).

 

And honestly, although the market is very bad for GPUs, we still have it quite "OK" for CPU, motherboard and RAM.

I'm a little concerned how RAM manufacturers are going to price DDR5 initially (rumoured at over 1.5x higher price), same for Intel 12th gen prices on launch. Without the oposition of new AMDs for months and months, prices may be quite rough for early adopters (wait and see game, all over again).
For all we know, the current situation with Intel 10th&11th gen and AMD Zen 2&3 may have been the best we've had for quite a while.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by LucShep