already in development DLSS is now free

[MAXsenna]

 
 
3DFX filed for bankruptcy, and was purchased out of Bankruptcy by nVidia, simply to get access rights to SLi, and other IP, 3DFx name and support died with that purchase.

They were acquired by a company after they failed in their proprietary direction, seems nVidia, when they acquired those technicians adopted their proprietary ideals.

The main reason for 3DFx's downfall was refusing to adopt open standard (mainly DirectX), and basically kept their GFX Cards running only OGL or Glide, the Launch of Voodoo 3 was 4 years too late to fix the problem, by that point, 3DFx Faithful had already moved to ATi or nVidia.

Same with Ageia and PhysX.

And when support for that proprietary tech/api is gone, you're stuck with software that's crippled until you re-write it.

Sorry. I was just trying to prove your point and be funny at the same time. Guess I failed.
The ventures of 3DFx is well known to me, and I am one of those faithful you mentioned. Went NVIDIA, might be looking to move on again.
Anyway, I totally agree with you, and everybody else that oppose proprietary tech.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[M1Combat]

That was exactly the point I was going for Skate :).  I'm not sure how I was mis-interpreted :).  NVidia was great...  Until they turned the corner.  Now they're all about proprietary crap.

 

Also...  at the time when 3dfx and nvidia were trading blows OGL was the open API and DirectX was "windows only".

[dsc106]

I would love to see *both* FSR and DLSS implemented as options, and usable in VR mode. FSR maximizes compatibility and DLSS maximizes quality.

 

This upscaling, along with the move to Vulkan, would be game changing for the DCS VR experience.

 

The absence of the ability to get better performance and higher fidelity is a big limiting factor right to the appeal of DCS World VR right now. I have a number of add-ons wish listed (Harrier, F18, Syria, etc.) but I am simply not interested in sinking more money into the game until the experience is improved to take better advantage of my hardware. It's not just eye candy - flying around in a low res VR space *is* fun... but I've experienced some other sims now and the immersion + fun factor is *much* higher with enhanced fidelity. As much as I love simming in DCS, I can't go back to 2D, and coming from other modern VR experiences to DCS VR graphics feels like moving backwards in time.

 

If we see Vulkan, multithreading, and FSR & DLSS in VR all rolled in, DCS will be a monster of a sim, and I'll start buying add-ons again.

[Mr_sukebe]

I'm currently testing FSX with DCS and am seeing roughly a 50% frame rate improvement in VR.

[JIMJAM]

Interesting read but from a long time simmer since Micro Prose F-19 I am yet to see any magic code do anything at a loss of something else. During the FS9/2004/FSX even p3d at least weekly someone discovered a magic tweak. Many were placebo but most simply turned off or reduced another setting doing what simmers find impossible to do. Reduce the graphics!!!

What I see more and more are people buying outrageously priced systems and cards and DO get that boost only to turn up the settings. Also crappy coding was called "future proofing" as a way to disguise it. Card and Proc makers LOVE flight simmers!!!

[dsc106]

8 hours ago, JIMJAM said:

Interesting read but from a long time simmer since Micro Prose F-19 I am yet to see any magic code do anything at a loss of something else. During the FS9/2004/FSX even p3d at least weekly someone discovered a magic tweak. Many were placebo but most simply turned off or reduced another setting doing what simmers find impossible to do. Reduce the graphics!!!

What I see more and more are people buying outrageously priced systems and cards and DO get that boost only to turn up the settings. Also crappy coding was called "future proofing" as a way to disguise it. Card and Proc makers LOVE flight simmers!!!

I've been playing games and sims for 30+ years. DLSS is the real deal and works wonders. Look up videos and comparisons, I've tried it on multiple games with excellent results. Haven't tried FSR but I hear it also does a very good job.

[5ephir0th]

10 hours ago, JIMJAM said:

Interesting read but from a long time simmer since Micro Prose F-19 I am yet to see any magic code do anything at a loss of something else. During the FS9/2004/FSX even p3d at least weekly someone discovered a magic tweak. Many were placebo but most simply turned off or reduced another setting doing what simmers find impossible to do. Reduce the graphics!!!

What I see more and more are people buying outrageously priced systems and cards and DO get that boost only to turn up the settings. Also crappy coding was called "future proofing" as a way to disguise it. Card and Proc makers LOVE flight simmers!!!

No offense but i think you are talking not having any idea of what DLSS, YouTube is full of videos explaining what is and some good comparisons you can check.

 

DLSS (and FSR, even VRSS) can be the savior of the quality/performance race on VR.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, 5ephir0th said:

No offense but i think you are talking not having any idea of what DLSS, YouTube is full of videos explaining what is and some good comparisons you can check.

 

DLSS (and FSR, even VRSS) can be the savior of the quality/performance race on VR.

 

I recommend we be  more restraint when passing judgement on who knows what about something we all haven't seen in DCS yet. I, too, have been around the block too long and tend to agree with @JIMJAM: let's be optimistic, but realistic enough to not believe a word of what essentially boils down to marketing demos. And yes, I really want both technologies to succeed.

 

And... "savior"? Are we perhaps jumping too hard on the hyperbole bandwagon here? Maybe now I'm too optimistic, but methinks VR currently does not need saving 

 

 

[5ephir0th]

44 minutes ago, cfrag said:

 

I recommend we be  more restraint when passing judgement on who knows what about something we all haven't seen in DCS yet. I, too, have been around the block too long and tend to agree with @JIMJAM: let's be optimistic, but realistic enough to not believe a word of what essentially boils down to marketing demos. And yes, I really want both technologies to succeed.

 

And... "savior"? Are we perhaps jumping too hard on the hyperbole bandwagon here? Maybe now I'm too optimistic, but methinks VR currently does not need saving 

 

 

I think you misunderstood me.

 

I don’t said you have no idea about DCS but DLSS, you can check how it works on any other games that includes it and you will understand why so many of us want it on DCS, results are impressive.

 

And, again, you misunderstood me about VR, I’m not saying DLSS (and other technologies i mention) is the VR savior, but quality/performance race, any modern HMD can triple the pixels rendered on a 2k screen and they keep increasing so GPU can’t keep it, so we need technologies like this to help us if we want to see cristal clear that weapon selector that RIO has on the Tomcat.

 

These technologies are the short way to achieve a decent performance with highest resolutions screens and if it works on any other games why not on DCS?

[cfrag]

15 minutes ago, 5ephir0th said:

These technologies are the short way to achieve a decent performance with highest resolutions screens and if it works on any other games why not on DCS?

 

That's just the thing. These technologies may be a way to achieve better performance ("decent" can be a loooong way off), and I'm hoping that they are. We have some good indicators, and there seem to be few downsides so far (one of them can, unfortunately, be a show-stop: vendor lock-in. But let's not focus too hard on this, just keep an eye on it).

 

21 minutes ago, 5ephir0th said:

if it works on any other games why not on DCS?

 

It does not work "on any" other games, just the ones that we know about because marketing told us. We currently don't know about the existence of games where integration has failed or integration did not yield the results we are hoping for (and I admit that didn't look for that, as I too prefer the "happy case"). And even then: one simple reason why it may not be coming to DCS soon may be that technically it is possible to integrate, but financially it is too demanding/risky for ED to develop/maintain (they don't have the required talent inhouse or can't commit the resources because the uptick in sales does not cover the added cost).  

 

We all want this to happen soon (my HMD currently maxes out at 50% pixel density at medium quality). Really soon. But we should manage our expectations conservatively.

 

[Headwarp]

Hate to necro a thread but.. Just having started playing another game with DLSS 2.0 set to balance settings and getting great frames on my pancake monitor and stellar image quality.. I think it's an oversight not to jump on these technologies.   It's been awhile since I've launched DCS but the Anti-aliasing situation ever since it was dictated that deferred rendering was the future for DCS World has been atrocious.    Pancake mode probably not as much, but the fact of the matter is DLSS 2.0 in every game I've played so far that utilizes it offers higher framerates and BETTER image quality than if I were to bump up MSAA, TAA, or other forms of anti-aliasing. 

We have been griping about performance for years at this point and are barely managing to get a good balance of image quality and performance in VR.   DLSS 2.0 is the solution, at least for nvidia users.   By all means implement FSR as well.. but DLSS 2.0 would probably eliminate 99% of my complaints about DCS World and performance while letting me stick with my 2080Ti for many years to come.  

The rumor mills are already talking about the 4000 series of GPUs.    Frankly with the way this resource hog of a program seems to drive people to the latest and greatest hardware just to get a clear image with a decent framerate, especially VR users, it's astonishing that the people who were intelligent enough to throw together a flight sim like DCS World haven't already jumped on this technology.   DLSS in VR sounds freaking amazing and it hasn't exactly been easy or budget friendly to source new hardware for quite some time.   I'm all for new features and graphical improvements but at the same time we have to respect the limitations of hardware today and try to optimize that experience. 

I know ED discourages proprietary tech.   And up until now it's been for good reason.. but when the technology is this much of a boost to image quality and framerate, it's a bit beyond just a gimmick.   

 

There have been numerous requests for performance optimizations since the launch of DCS 2.5, which I was and still am in full support of.   It was nice to see the team cut some of their workload by declaring 1.5 end of life, but, at the time I was under the impression that the goal of Edge was to improve graphical quality with minimal impact to performance.  Instead, again, especially in VR, the brunt of my game play has been trying to fine tune my system for the best balance of visual fidelity and performance in VR and never really feeling satisfied with my results.  

If anything were to push current available hardware to potentially not require crutches like ASW/Motion Prediction etc etc it will be this highly impressive anti-aliasing technique called DLSS.  

Edited November 28, 2021 by Headwarp

[Marco Schaap]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:13 AM, Headwarp said:

Hate to necro a thread but.. Just having started playing another game with DLSS 2.0 set to balance settings and getting great frames on my pancake monitor and stellar image quality.. I think it's an oversight not to jump on these technologies.   It's been awhile since I've launched DCS but the Anti-aliasing situation ever since it was dictated that deferred rendering was the future for DCS World has been atrocious.    Pancake mode probably not as much, but the fact of the matter is DLSS 2.0 in every game I've played so far that utilizes it offers higher framerates and BETTER image quality than if I were to bump up MSAA, TAA, or other forms of anti-aliasing. 

We have been griping about performance for years at this point and are barely managing to get a good balance of image quality and performance in VR.   DLSS 2.0 is the solution, at least for nvidia users.   By all means implement FSR as well.. but DLSS 2.0 would probably eliminate 99% of my complaints about DCS World and performance while letting me stick with my 2080Ti for many years to come.  

The rumor mills are already talking about the 4000 series of GPUs.    Frankly with the way this resource hog of a program seems to drive people to the latest and greatest hardware just to get a clear image with a decent framerate, especially VR users, it's astonishing that the people who were intelligent enough to throw together a flight sim like DCS World haven't already jumped on this technology.   DLSS in VR sounds freaking amazing and it hasn't exactly been easy or budget friendly to source new hardware for quite some time.   I'm all for new features and graphical improvements but at the same time we have to respect the limitations of hardware today and try to optimize that experience. 

I know ED discourages proprietary tech.   And up until now it's been for good reason.. but when the technology is this much of a boost to image quality and framerate, it's a bit beyond just a gimmick.   

 

There have been numerous requests for performance optimizations since the launch of DCS 2.5, which I was and still am in full support of.   It was nice to see the team cut some of their workload by declaring 1.5 end of life, but, at the time I was under the impression that the goal of Edge was to improve graphical quality with minimal impact to performance.  Instead, again, especially in VR, the brunt of my game play has been trying to fine tune my system for the best balance of visual fidelity and performance in VR and never really feeling satisfied with my results.  

If anything were to push current available hardware to potentially not require crutches like ASW/Motion Prediction etc etc it will be this highly impressive anti-aliasing technique called DLSS.  

 

Without trying to bitch, DLSS in VR can prove a very effective performance gain, but that is only and solely if you're not CPU limited. With the current engine it wouldn't help a bit for most VR users because the game is simply not taking benefit of multiple cores. I play a number of games for many hours in VR, even UE4 (which by default uses 4 cores) runs shit in VR because the scenery is so complex most CPU's can't keep up.

I'm pretty optimistic about the future (altough I'm not a fan of DLSS because it proprietary) but a holy grail for VR performance will probably take another few years.

[TZeer]

It would probably be much easier to implement native support for FSR. As it is possible to have it now via steamVR with a simple free mod. And from the feedback in the VR section of the forums, it seems to give good results. If one man can make a mod work with DCS that easily. An entire graphics team in ED should have little problem implementing it natively.

The other massive advantage for FSR, is that it works on ALL cards. Not just AMD, or the newest generation. (Looking at you nvidia)

This also makes it much easier to run VR with a less powerful graphicscard. Or crank up GPU dependant options on weaker cards on normal 2D rendering. 

Theoretically it looks like FSR is a "low hanging fruit" that would benefit everyone playing DCS. AMD cards, Nvidia cards, 2D (monitor) players and VR players.
 

Personally I`m running a 5800X CPU, 32gb ram, M.2 SSD etc. But I`m currently bottlenecked by my RTX 2080. People on similar systems, but with a RX6900XT or RTX 3080Ti/3090 running a standard track-file with identical settings are getting 80-100% higher performance than me in VR. And with the current prices and low avilability, anything that would extend the life of your current videcard would be golden!

 

[despinoza]

On 12/11/2021 at 6:25 PM, TZeer said:

Theoretically it looks like FSR is a "low hanging fruit" that would benefit everyone playing DCS. AMD cards, Nvidia cards, 2D (monitor) players and VR players.

There is a mod for vr FSR, but is hard to see any improvement in clarity compared to just using PD. DLSS, at least in monitors, is amazing, miles ahead to anything else in terms of image quality/framerate. 

 

[Mogster]

I’ve tried DLSS with Assetto Corsa and even with high IQ set I found it blurred the image too much. This is with 35inch 3440 x 1440 2D, VR users may be more accepting of the blur v fps trade off. The blur was more noticeable as it blurred the dashboard instruments, as it would in DCS.

[speed-of-heat]

A lot depends on the DLSS implementation, the more recent versions offer better clarity…

[grasnabe]

I don't DLSS would integrated in DCS... Its a DX12 Feature... and i dont know api vulkan supports it. ED says they are developing a Vulkan adaption of DCS..... so i think DLSS don't come to DCS.... 
 

For VR DLSS could be a gamechanger..

 

Greets

[speed-of-heat]

18 minutes ago, grasnabe said:

I don't DLSS would integrated in DCS... Its a DX12 Feature... and i dont know api vulkan supports it. ED says they are developing a Vulkan adaption of DCS..... so i think DLSS don't come to DCS.... 
 

For VR DLSS could be a gamechanger..

 

Greets

You are wrong … DLSS is not Dx12 only and has been available for dx11 & Vulkan for some time…

Edited December 20, 2021 by speed-of-heat

[grasnabe]

Playing DCS on VR Pimax 8kX .... GPU:Nvidea 3090 / CPU Intel 11900 8core@5.1ghz       DLSS with Vulkan and a Multicore Support ( no the actual 2 cores)... would be a Dream....

Edited December 20, 2021 by grasnabe

[speed-of-heat]

Just because it’s getting Vulkan doesn’t mean it will get DLSS, but it would be great if it did!

[TZeer]

2 hours ago, despinoza said:

There is a mod for vr FSR, but is hard to see any improvement in clarity compared to just using PD. DLSS, at least in monitors, is amazing, miles ahead to anything else in terms of image quality/framerate. 

 

yes, I know about the mod.

You are missing the point. vr FSR (or DLSS for that matter) will never offer better clarity then natively running a higher resolution/higher PD. But it's a way of reducing the PD/resolution (less GPU resources needed) and somewhat compensating it with FSR/DLSS.

And people can cheer as much as they want for DLSS, but it's still tech that only work on 1 brand of cards, and that's nvidia.

FSR works with both nvidia and AMD. An most likely Intel when they come with new cards now.

Why do more work, for a solution that only work for 1 brand? When you can do less work, and it will work for all cards.

And btw, I own an Nvidia card. But I want to have the freedom to pick whatever card I want next time. Without getting shafted on performance, due to some proprietary tech that excludes everyone without an nvidia card.
 

[despinoza]

12 minutes ago, TZeer said:

You are missing the point. vr FSR (or DLSS for that matter) will never offer better clarity then natively running a higher resolution/higher PD. But it's a way of reducing the PD/resolution (less GPU resources needed) and somewhat compensating it with FSR/DLSS.

well, that's my point. i still can't see any image quality difference between fsr 0.7 vs pd 0.7. If there is, is really subtle. I'm still using it though.

[TKu]

Don't overrate dlss and don't stick to single vendor only solutions would be my response

[RealDCSpilot]

There is nothing to overrate about DLSS:

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by RealDCSpilot

[Headwarp]

On 12/8/2021 at 1:59 PM, Marco Schaap said:

Without trying to bitch, DLSS in VR can prove a very effective performance gain, but that is only and solely if you're not CPU limited. With the current engine it wouldn't help a bit for most VR users because the game is simply not taking benefit of multiple cores. I play a number of games for many hours in VR, even UE4 (which by default uses 4 cores) runs shit in VR because the scenery is so complex most CPU's can't keep up.

I'm pretty optimistic about the future (altough I'm not a fan of DLSS because it proprietary) but a holy grail for VR performance will probably take another few years.

 

Disagree..anything that increases my performance to image quality ratio is a holy grail for VR in DCS. The next thing can be the Ark of the Covenant.  Enabling MSAA 2x drops me from like 80fps on Caucasus in VR to 60, with random spikes down into the 40's using native res in the Index.   Disabling MSAA lets me run around the same map getting 80fps @80hz, with some spikes into the 70's.   DLSS replaces an anti-aliasing method that we've known causes a massive fps hit when combined with deferred rendering, which is one of the rendering methods FSR and DLSS were advertised as being useful for.  

It's not about an "FPS BOOST" it's about not sacrificing FPS for MSAA.  Or the alternative gaining performance by sacrificing a crisp image that isn't jaggy and shimmering.    "just upping the resolution" doesn't make up for a lack of anti-aliasing and is also limited by hardware.   MSAA 2x at lower resolutions still looks better, but performs worse.  DLSS doesn't come with the performance hit.   Whether you like it or not and proprietary or not for people who have a 20 series nvidia card or higher it provides a much better alternative to MSAA than FXAA.  In VR particularly, I'll take every performance boost I can get.  running at half the refresh rate is a crutch that comes with its own visual artifacts.  This is putting the anti-aliasing on hardware that is currently not in use within DCSW.   I mean if you don't want to use it that's cool but anybody with a 20 series nVidia card on into the future could potentially benefit from DLSS implementation.   It might not matter to me as much if I were still playing on a pancake.. it did when I was running a 980TI @ 3440x1440 back when deferred rendering became the only rendering method supported by ED staff.  Without msaa that was pretty shimmery.  

Personally, I don't see why one would bother arguing against this.    It's an optional feature.  Options make more room for more people to enjoy the experience something like DCS might offer.   It's like the people that tried to argue against supporting wide screen monitors in online gaming because they didn't want to spend money on one themselves and labeled it "unfair."   The people who had them loved them and started buying games that supported the hardware available to their customer base.  Eventually 1080p became a standard.  I have more and more games featuring DLSS and FSR is even starting to pop up in them.  

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Headwarp