“Dogfight vs Mustangs” is Driving Me Mad

[percivaldanvers]

This instant action mission is so annoying to me that I almost want to uninstall the channel map so I can stop obsessing over it. You’re given a dogfight where pretty much none of the things the Dora is good at are available to you. You’re on the deck so there’s no room to dive, you’re traveling at 350kph so you don’t have energy to maneuver, and the enemy is too close for you to escape and reset the fight. This last point really frustrates me as I’ll often try to fly straight through the enemy pair and run away only for the enemy mustangs to turn 180 degrees and overtake me.

 

I can’t understand it but I have a compulsive desire to develop a tactic for winning this fight, but it seems like everything I try ends in disaster. What am I even supposed to do here? 

[konyanyachiwa]

Just for your information.

 

 

 

 

Tacview

https://www.mediafire.com/file/nk9q809yhrq1res/Tacview-Dogfight_vs_Mustangs.acmi/file

Dogfight vs Mustangs.trk

Edited July 26, 2021 by konyanyachiwa

[percydanvers]

Thank you! 

2 hours ago, konyanyachiwa said:

Just for your information.

 

 

 

 

Tacview

https://www.mediafire.com/file/nk9q809yhrq1res/Tacview-Dogfight_vs_Mustangs.acmi/file

Dogfight vs Mustangs.trk 4.2 MB · 1 download

 

Incredible flying! I've got a lot to study here. It looks like I need to be a lot more aggressive with the mustangs than I've been. I keep trying to extend and get to a better energy state, but the P-51 is just too fast to allow that tactic to work I think. Those defensive rolls you did were quite something as well! I'm still not quite sure how you managed to pull those off, but they sure did the trick! Were you using a lot of flaps to get through those manuevers?

PS I really like that sound mod you're using. It's nice to hear the Jumo sound like a Jumo and not a sickly lawnmower. 

Edited July 26, 2021 by percydanvers

[Marduk879]

Dont forget AI do not follow the same law of physics as players do. They have simplified flight model allowing them to do manuevers players can never follow or do the same.

[DB 605]

@konyanyachiwa
Wich sound mod you are using in that video?

[StankFaust]

haha you made that pony crash

[percydanvers]

On 8/8/2021 at 6:37 AM, Marduk879 said:

Dont forget AI do not follow the same law of physics as players do. They have simplified flight model allowing them to do manuevers players can never follow or do the same.

Something I discovered after the fact, digging into the mission in the editor was that the Mustangs start about 120~ kph faster than you and about 500m above you, so you are starting in a MASSIVE energy disadvantage in this scenario, which is kind of tough for a plane whose tactics revolve around having the energy advantage. Understanding that though made the fight a bit easier. My priorities changed from trying to get the kill to trying to survive long enough for the Mustangs to exhaust their energy advantage, at which point was it possible turn the tables. But man that is a hard scenario, especially factoring that your wingman will almost definitely get killed (No shame there, I've never seen any sim that could teach an AI to use the Fw-190 effectively). What you end up with unless you're very lucky is a 2v1 starting at big disadvantage. Given that I'm not too unhappy with my meagre results. 

[Lykurgus]

On 7/26/2021 at 11:40 AM, konyanyachiwa said:

Just for your information.

 

 

 

 

Tacview

https://www.mediafire.com/file/nk9q809yhrq1res/Tacview-Dogfight_vs_Mustangs.acmi/file

Dogfight vs Mustangs.trk 4.2 MB · 13 downloads

 

 

Looks a lot like you use the auto rudder function. What's the sound mod though?

[StevanJ]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:08 AM, DB 605 said:

@konyanyachiwa
Wich sound mod you are using in that video?

 

1940's diesel tractor mod from the sounds of it..
It sounds utterly dreadful.

All those man hours invested by a sound engineer.. Wasted.

[Rainbowgirl]

Do historic research, read the flight manual and learn to fly Dora to its strenghts and avoid flying it where its weaknesses would put you into disadvantage.  It is a standard tactic to disengage from an unfavourable fight or only to intercept enemy under favourable conditions for you.. As Obi Wan Kenobi wisely said in Star Wars: ,,Direct fight is not the only way to win".

[Dragon1-1]

Except in that situation, and most others, Dora can't just extend from a Mustang. The P-51 is fast, and AI cheating doesn't help, so trying to make this a running contest is a good way to end up full of holes. To escape, you need an energy advantage, but in that mission, you don't have one. The scenario puts in a situation you'd realistically try your best not to end up with in fist place. 

That sort of advice is very generic and in this particular situation, very unhelpful. It's correct, but it won't save you in this scenario. Actually trying to implement the "stock advice" for the Dora and trying to fight with energy will get you killed, because you don't have the energy or the time to get it. In a situation such as this, you need to consider your secondary strengths (roll rate, in that case), and fly the plane not necessarily to your own strengths, but to your enemy's weaknesses, to force them to squander the energy advantage and get in position to turn the tables.

[LeCuvier]

This instant action mission is challenging for me too although I have lots of hours with the FW-190D, because it starts just seconds before the merge, your speed is low, your aircraft needs nose-up trim, your gunsight is not set for the Mustang wing span and the gunsight brightness is too high. And your AI wing man needs to be told to engage. So a lot of things need to get right quickly, power-up and trim first priority for me.

However, with enough practice the mission is quite winnable. I tend to get behind one of the bandits rather quickly, but the bastard then starts maneuvering wildly which makes it hard to hit him. Deflection shooting with very short bursts works best for me in this phase. Once he runs out of tricks and tries to climb away, a solid well-aimed burst will work. Also need to make sure I'm not chasing the same bandit as my wing man. Talking to the wing man via F keys would force me to look at the keyboard which is dangerous. I'm using Voice Attack so I can talk to my wing man without losing sight of my target. AI wing men tend to be passive. You may have have to repeat the "engage bandit!" to keep him at work.

For a rookie pilot I would recommend to modify the mission (increase the distance) to give you more time to set everything up. Just copy the mission to your "Saved Games" folder so you don't lose your changes during updates.

[percivaldanvers]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:30 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Except in that situation, and most others, Dora can't just extend from a Mustang. The P-51 is fast, and AI cheating doesn't help, so trying to make this a running contest is a good way to end up full of holes. To escape, you need an energy advantage, but in that mission, you don't have one. The scenario puts in a situation you'd realistically try your best not to end up with in fist place. 

That sort of advice is very generic and in this particular situation, very unhelpful. It's correct, but it won't save you in this scenario. Actually trying to implement the "stock advice" for the Dora and trying to fight with energy will get you killed, because you don't have the energy or the time to get it. In a situation such as this, you need to consider your secondary strengths (roll rate, in that case), and fly the plane not necessarily to your own strengths, but to your enemy's weaknesses, to force them to squander the energy advantage and get in position to turn the tables.

I think this is unfortunately true. I didn't realize until I opened the scenario in the editor but your enemy actually starts the battle one or two hundred kph faster than you, which is enough of an energy advantage that even a spitfire might be able to catch up to you. To make matters worse you're barely above tree top height, so no power-diving away. Basically you're in a situation where it's impossible to fly the dora its strengths, at least at first. Understanding this I've been able to get better at the scenario. Your first priority is to extended enough that you can begin to fight on your own terms, or at least prevent the enemy from exploiting their massive energy advantage. It also doesn't help that the AI, despite all the improvements, still does not seem to do particularly well with the D9, so chances are you're going to get outnumbered pretty fast.

On 3/11/2022 at 12:04 PM, LeCuvier said:

This instant action mission is challenging for me too although I have lots of hours with the FW-190D, because it starts just seconds before the merge, your speed is low, your aircraft needs nose-up trim, your gunsight is not set for the Mustang wing span and the gunsight brightness is too high. And your AI wing man needs to be told to engage. So a lot of things need to get right quickly, power-up and trim first priority for me.

However, with enough practice the mission is quite winnable. I tend to get behind one of the bandits rather quickly, but the bastard then starts maneuvering wildly which makes it hard to hit him. Deflection shooting with very short bursts works best for me in this phase. Once he runs out of tricks and tries to climb away, a solid well-aimed burst will work. Also need to make sure I'm not chasing the same bandit as my wing man. Talking to the wing man via F keys would force me to look at the keyboard which is dangerous. I'm using Voice Attack so I can talk to my wing man without losing sight of my target. AI wing men tend to be passive. You may have have to repeat the "engage bandit!" to keep him at work.

For a rookie pilot I would recommend to modify the mission (increase the distance) to give you more time to set everything up. Just copy the mission to your "Saved Games" folder so you don't lose your changes during updates.

It's definitely a winnable scenario, but it is a hard scenario. Probably about the most demoralizing intro to fighting in the Dora I could imagine. It's been a learning experience though. I've found it helpful to get in the mindset of thinking of maneuvers in terms of the space they need to be successful. People always say "stay fast" and "boom and zoom" and that's all true, but you have to understand what that means. You can turn as much as you want if you give yourself room to execute the maneuver without pulling hard into the turn. If you're flying this way it's really easy to stay fast because you're keeping the Gs low, which in turn makes you a less appealing target. 

[Katmandu]

Here is my attempt. My initial tactic was to drag the 2 Mustangs to the nearby opening in the clouds, a head on pass(failed) and i then chose and get the first one with a loop and the second one with a "side window tracking shot" that the Fw190 was made for.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Katmandu

[amazingme]

Check out these 2 videos I've just made:

Instant Action #1:

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Instant Action #2:

S!

Edited May 5, 2022 by amazingme

[River]

On 7/26/2021 at 7:37 PM, percydanvers said:

Thank you! 

Incredible flying! I've got a lot to study here. It looks like I need to be a lot more aggressive with the mustangs than I've been. I keep trying to extend and get to a better energy state, but the P-51 is just too fast to allow that tactic to work I think. Those defensive rolls you did were quite something as well! I'm still not quite sure how you managed to pull those off, but they sure did the trick! Were you using a lot of flaps to get through those manuevers?

PS I really like that sound mod you're using. It's nice to hear the Jumo sound like a Jumo and not a sickly lawnmower. 

 

May I ask where exactely you saw incredible flying in that video?