Search/Acquisition radars for the WIP S-200V/SA-5b

[Northstar98]

Hi everyone,

I'm sure most people are aware that an S-200/SA-5 SAM system (more specifically the S-200V 'Vega' [SA-5b Gammon]) has been in development by ED for quite some time now, and has been teased numerous times in various teaser videos and screenshots, and for a long time some components of it were present in the modelviewer (such as the missile and various elements thereof, I believe the launcher too).

However, what we haven't seen is an appropriate search/acquisition radar for the system yet, only the launcher (5P72), FCR (5N62V (K-1V) [Square Pair]) and missile (V-880/5V28).

 

There are 2 types of radars (and their accompanying height-finders) that are best suited for this system, and I will detail them below:

The most common search/acquisition radar associated with the SA-5 is the 5N84A (P-14F) 'Oborona-14' [Tall King C], which is an improved, transportable version of the P-14 radar (though takes over a day to set-up).

This radar is a very large, VHF, 2D radar, with a maximum instrumented range of 600km.

5N84A:

Note the OdAZ-828 derived operator/electronics cabin, and an NRZ-14 IFF interrogator (using the Kremniy-2 (Silicon-2) IFF system).

5N84A specifications:

Spoiler

• Frequency: 150 - 170 MHz [IEEE: VHF Band, NATO: A Band] [1]
• PRF: 180 Hz [1]
• PRT: 6 ms  [1]
• Pulse-width: 6 μs [1]
• Receive time: 5 ms [1]
• Azimuth resolution: 1.2°  [2]
• Mainlobe max-elevation: 12/17° (low-beam/high-beam mode) [2]
• Instrumented Range: 600 km [2]
• Range Resolution: 1200 m [1] [2]
• Maximum Altitude: 45/65 km (low-beam/high-beam mode) [2]
• Active noise suppression factor (think OECM/barrage/noise jamming rejection): 20 dB [2]
• Passive noise suppression factor (presumably clutter): 26 dB (with DMTI (Digital Moving Target Indicator?)) [2]
• RPM: 4 RPM (rotation period of 15 seconds) [1]

[1]

[2]

As mentioned, this radar is only 2D capable so once again, it is paired up with a separate height-finding radar; typically a PRV-13 [Odd Pair] or a PRV-17 [Odd Group] (not sure which is more common at SA-5 sites, though the former WARPAC SA-5 site shown below uses a PRV-17).

PRV-13:

 

PRV-17:

PRV-13 and PRV-17 specifications:

Spoiler

PRV-13:

• Frequency: 2.5 - 2.7 GHz [IEEE: S band, NATO: E band] [1]
• PRF: 400 Hz [1]
• PRT: 2.5 ms [1]
• Pulse-width: 1.5 μs and 3 μs [1]
• Peak power: 1.6 MW [1]
• Average power: 1 kW [1]
• Instrumented Range: 400 km [1]

[1]

 

PRV-17:

• Frequency: ~2.0 - 3.0GHz (?) [IEEE: S band, NATO: E band] [2]
• PRF: 182 - 1460 Hz (PRT of 5.5 and 0.7 ms respectively) [2]
• Pulse-width: 9 and 1.1 μs (presumably for the 2 PRF settings, respectively) [2]
• Peak power: > 2.5 MW [1]
• Average power: > 41 kW [2]
• Instrumented Range: 600 km [2]
• Range resolution: ~1 km [2]
• Mainlobe beamwidth (azimuth): 2.5° [2]
• Mainlobe beamwidth (elevation): 1.15° [2]

[2]

For IFF systems, it seems that the Kremny-2 was used, followed by the Parol system.

The above image and this image (on the right) show the 5N84A with what I think is an NRZ-12 NRZ-14 [Score Board (?)] interrogation antenna [EDIT: whereas this image shows a variant of the Parol system (likely an NRZ-2P/73E6)].

According to this, the Parol variant used with the 5N84A radar is the NRZ-2P (73E6) Parol-4.

Here's a 1L22-1 Parol-4 at a former Czechoslovak S-200VE/SA-5b site near Dobříš in Czechia (see below), it's located on one of the elevated concrete platforms (so-called "Bridges") for the 5N62V FCRs.

For more information about these IFF systems, this seems to be a pretty decent resource.

I imagine a typical 5N84A + PRV-13 site looks something like this (this looks to be an EW station, presumably serving as part of an IADS/GCI station):

Note the various operator and electronics cabins, as well as what are possibly separate IFF systems, I think there's also a P-18 'Terek' [Spoon Rest D] in the background, behind the PRV-13).

 

I've also seen the P-35M/P-37 'Saturn' [Bar Lock/Bar Lock B] mentioned too, though when looking at real world SA-5 sites (i.e battery level radars), I've only ever seen the 5N84A + PRV-17/-13 combination. My hunch is that these radars are found in more of an IADS set-up where you might have the P-35M/-37 stationed at remote EWR sites, that are networked as part of an IADS, with the S-200 integrated within. I'll include it here however to be on the safe side (it is a fairly common REDFOR/WARPAC radar), though when dealing with remote EWR sites several radars are candidates.

This is a transportable, VHF, 2D radar, with a distictive antenna setup and integrated IFF, with a maximum instrumented range of approximately 460km (250 nmi). Full specifications (that I've found) in the spoiler below.

P-37:

P-37 specifications:

Spoiler

• Frequency: 2.9 - 3.3 GHz (5 channels) [IEEE: S band, NATO: E/F band] [2]
• PRF: 375 - 750 Hz [1] [2]
• PRT: 2.6 - 1.3 ms [1] [2]
• Pulse-width: 1.2 μs [1] [2]
• Peak power: 500 - 700 kW [1]
• Average Power: 0.5 - 0.7kW [1]
• Instrumented Range: 450 km [1] [2]
• Detection Ranges of a 1 m² RCS target (assuming no noise): [2] (though this is for a 1L117M [Big Bar] which is essentially a further development of the P-37).
  • 10 km at an altidude of 500 m
  • 160 km at an altitude of 3000 m
  • 280 km at an altitude of 8000 m
  • 320 km at an altitude of 10000 - 25000 m
• Beam-width: 2° [1] [2]
• Range resolution: 180 m [1] [2]
• Clutter rejection: 25 dB [3]
• RPM: 3 or 6 RPM (rotation period of 20 or 10 seconds, respectively) [1]

[1]

[2]

[3]

As previously mentioned this radar is again 2D only, so it is paired up with a separate height-finding radar; AFAIK this is a typically a PRV-11 [Side Net], though I have also seen it paired with a PRV-16 [Thin Skin B] again, specifications down below.

PRV-11:

PRV-16:

PRV-11 and PRV-16 specifications:

Spoiler

PRV-11:

• Frequency: 2.7 GHz [IEEE: S band, NATO: E band] [1]
• PRF: 330 and 770Hz (PRT of 3 and 1.3ms respectively) [1]
• Pulse-width: 3 and 1.5μs (presumably for the 2 respective PRF settings, respectively) [1]
• Peak power: 1.2 MW [1]
• Average power: 1.3 kW [1]
• Instrumented range: 400 km [1]
• Range resolution: 0.8 - 1.5 km (presumably for the 2 respective PRF settings, respectively) [1]
• Mainlobe beamwidth (azimuth): 2° [1]
• Mainlobe beamwidth (elevation): 1.2° [1]

[1]

PRV-16:

• Frequency: 5-9 GHz [IEEE: C-X band, NATO: G-I band] [2]
• PRF: 400 and 800 Hz (PRT of 2.5 and 1.25ms respectively) [2]
• Pulse-width: 1.75 μs [2]
• Peak power: 700 kW [2]
• Average power: 490 - 560 W [2]
• Instrumented range: 300 km [2]
• Range resolution: 1.5 km [2]
• Mainlobe beamwidth (azimuth): 2.5° [2]
• Mainlobe beamwidth (elevation): 0.5° [2]
• 'nod' time: 3.2s (18 'nods' per minute) [2]

[2]

 

Here's a site showing a P-35/P-35M/P-37 and a PRV-16:

 

Now both the P-37 and PRV-11 should be familiar, as we actually have both of them in DCS, it's just they're completely non-functional (though are animated) eye-candy, that spawn automatically at most airfields in the Caucasus map, with no control over placement or presence in the ME (at the moment though, the P-37 is always mounted on a grass mound, personally, the mound (or an updated version of it) should be a static object). 

 

EDIT: At this former Czechoslovak S-200VE/SA-5b site (Dobříš), a 5N84AE (export 5N85A) and a PRV-17 is present (see here (or here for a translated version), for an amazing description of the site, with plenty of photographs and reference material).

Spoiler

• K-1B: 5N62 [Square Pair] FCR and control cabin (mounted on raised concrete platforms, which would be great to get as a static object).
• VS: K-2 and K-22; the K-2 is an OdAZ-828 derived fire-control centre, and the K-22 is an electrical converter/power supply.
• P-14: 5N84AE (export 5N84A) [Tall King C]
• 5Ja63: 5Ya63 (5Я63) "Cycloid" Radio relay station
• K-9: OdAZ-828 derived battery command post.
• EC: 5E97 diesel generator.
• K-3: OdAZ-828 derived launch control station.
• Technický oddíl: Technical section:

  • Autopark bojové techniky: Car fleet for combat equipment.
  • Hlavni Skladovaci objekt: main storage object.

• Stanoviště přečerpávaní paliva: Fuel pumping station.

EDIT 2: ED have now clarified that they're doing a Syrian SA-5 (which is an S-200VE 'Vega-E' [SA-5b Gammon], which is the same as used in the above former Czechoslovak SA-5 shown above, the vast majority of these also have a P-14 and an appropriate height-finder radar located either on site, or a short distance away. The only site I've found that doesn't is colocated with a Russian S-400 site, presumably piggy backing off of its radars (such as the 96L6E2), though there is a height-finder present (EDIT: this site historically had a 5N84AE present).

See this post for links to satellite images of the Syrian SA-5 sites that I've found.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Northstar98
grammar

[Tippis]

PRV-11 would be particularly good since it would also be a reasonably appropriate heigh-finder for the SA-2 and SA-3.

[Northstar98]

On 7/26/2021 at 2:33 PM, Tippis said:

PRV-11 would be particularly good since it would also be a reasonably appropriate heigh-finder for the SA-2 and SA-3.

Indeed, though it should be said that the SA-2 is also missing its more commonly associated search/acquisition RADAR, that being the P-18 "Terek" [NATO: "Spoon Rest D"].

Edited November 22, 2021 by Northstar98
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[Northstar98]

Now that it's finally been released, I just wanted to bump this thread for visibility, as the ST-68U (and any other version of the Tin Shield) is not associated with the SA-5, including Syrian ones (which are export S-200Vs - the S-200VE).

See this post for links to satellite imagery of Syrian SA-5 sites (at least the ones I've found), almost all of them using a 5N84AE (export 5N84A), and an associated height finder (either a PRV-17 or PRV-13).

Edited November 22, 2021 by Northstar98
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[Tank50us]

15 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Now that it's finally been released, I just wanted to bump this thread for visibility, as the ST-68U (and any other version of the Tin Shield) is not associated with the SA-5, including Syrian ones (which are export S-200Vs - the S-200VE).

 

See this post for links to satellite imagery of Syrian SA-5 sites (at least the ones I've found), almost all of them using a 5N84AE (export 5N84A), and an associated height finder (either a PRV-17 or PRV-13).

 

 

I believe they said that the Tin Shield Radar is just a placeholder for now

[Northstar98]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:16 AM, Tank50us said:

I believe they said that the Tin Shield Radar is just a placeholder for now

That's what BIGNEWY said on the 6th of August, though in the 10th September newsletter they said the following:

Quote

..We have modelled the Syrian Army SA-5 system, which uses the STU-68U search radar, giving it a maximum range of 150km. We plan to develop another long-range SA-5 search radar soon...

...The SA-5 that we have modelled is based on the Syrian Army system that uses the ST-68U search radar, providing a maximum engagement range of 150km...

This is incorrect; no variant of the ST-68U is used as the search RADAR for the S-200, and that includes Syrian ones. It's pretty simple to find satellite imagery of the sites, and all but one of them has a 5N84AE nearby (and the one that doesn't is colocated with a Russian S-400 site), the 5N84AE being the export designation for the 5N84A, which is an improved, transportable version of the P-14 RADAR (I've seen P-14F also used as a designation). The 5N84A and 5N84AE both are given the NATO reporting name "Tall King C".

Syria does operate at least one ST-68U (though an upgraded one AFAIK), but this was a replacement for a JY-27 EWR that was destroyed in an IDF airstrike that was being used as a general purpose EWR at Damascus airport, presumably so is the Tin Shield that replaced it.

The actual SAM system the Tin Shield is associated with is actually the S-300 [SA-10], seeing as we have the S-300PS [SA-10b], then AFAIK, we should have what NATO calls, the Tin Shield B. I'm not sure what native designation it has (there are several), but sticking to the 5NXXX convention (GRAU index?) I believe it's the 5N59S.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Northstar98
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[norman99]

Interesting stuff Northstar. Hopefully improved SAM radar & support equipment is still on ED’s to do list.

[Northstar98]

26 minutes ago, norman99 said:

Interesting stuff Northstar. Hopefully improved SAM radar & support equipment is still on ED’s to do list.

I hope so, though some of Flappie's answers here are quite disagreeable IMO.

 

[norman99]

I found these over at TurboSquad, exactly what we need in DCS!

 

Here’s a link for details on each individual model. https://www.turbosquid.com/Download/513949_3480417
 

If ED don’t have the resources to develop these models internally, maybe they should just purchase these instead?