DCS: F-16C Viper Roadmap

[TLTeo]

18 minutes ago, Versor said:

Doesn't matter but i will use it.

More importantly, the fact that it's not used now with GPS navigation and precision guided weapons using during uncontested CAS missions does not mean it was always useless.

[WobblyFlops]

6 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

More importantly, the fact that it's not used now with GPS navigation and precision guided weapons using during uncontested CAS missions does not mean it was always useless.

Yes, it does, if you actually talk to pilots they will tell you that the resolution that these small, relatively old MSA radars are capable of makes the completely useless for any kind of tactical scenario, so much so that they aren't even trained to use them tactically. Navigation, SCAs, INS updates and maybe anti shipping are the only valid use of A2G radars if you're not flying a dedicated strike platform(A-6, Mudhen, etc.).

[TLTeo]

15 minutes ago, WobblyFlops said:

Yes, it does, if you actually talk to pilots they will tell you that the resolution that these small, relatively old MSA radars are capable of makes the completely useless for any kind of tactical scenario, so much so that they aren't even trained to use them tactically. Navigation, SCAs, INS updates and maybe anti shipping are the only valid use of A2G radars if you're not flying a dedicated strike platform(A-6, Mudhen, etc.).

If it's good enough to spot airport runways or hangars, or ports, then it's definitely relevant (again, assuming no fancy GPS guided standoff stuff). Not all missions are about plinking tanks.

[Cepheus76]

Also, rain and/ or cloudy skies should hamstring a targeting pod quite a bit, making radar a viable choice again.

[Airhunter]

5 hours ago, Versor said:

OK but what about Pilot body ?

Also delayed as per last "mini update" which then got removed again. 

[Machalot]

10 hours ago, Versor said:

Doesn't matter but i will use it.

Don't you dare have fun in a manner that is not 1:1 with real USAF conops and doctrine. 

[Qiou87]

9 hours ago, Cepheus76 said:

Also, rain and/ or cloudy skies should hamstring a targeting pod quite a bit, making radar a viable choice again.

Rain and dense clouds also can block or at least affect radar. Not in the same way as a targeting pod, of course, but radar in bad weather is not a magic bullet.

I am also in the camp of "more options, more fun". In a simulated environment we have more freedom to think about ways to use those systems, even if IRL they aren't used so much - this is also part of the fun of a simulator.

[Cepheus76]

15 minutes ago, Qiou87 said:

Rain and dense clouds also can block or at least affect radar. Not in the same way as a targeting pod, of course, but radar in bad weather is not a magic bullet.

I am also in the camp of "more options, more fun". In a simulated environment we have more freedom to think about ways to use those systems, even if IRL they aren't used so much - this is also part of the fun of a simulator.

Of course, precipitation can cause radar attenuation, even to the point that the radar becomes useless. 

To be honest, I do not know to which degree radar is considered nowadays as a means for target acquisition, but Rosenkranz describes in his book "Vipers in the Storm" how radar was used for targeting during Operation Desert Storm. Sure, that was 30 years ago, yet I would be surprised if radar was dismissed entirely by the US Air Force and/ or other air forces today.

[WobblyFlops]

16 hours ago, TLTeo said:

If it's good enough to spot airport runways or hangars, or ports, then it's definitely relevant (again, assuming no fancy GPS guided standoff stuff). Not all missions are about plinking tanks.

If you're going up against fixed targets, like factories, power plants, C2 installation or similar targets, you definitely should have preplanned coordinates in the vast majority of cases. The air to ground radar can show clouds and it doesn't necessarily mean that it would automatically make you an all weather platform as explained above. Even if you're not using IAMs and GPS (for example you're simulating a degraded GPS network),  you should still have steerpoints in the target area and you should be able to penetrate the cloud layer and attack it with LGBs. 

 

In reality, we know for a fact that the Hornet's ground radar can't detect anything reliably, so much so that aircrew weren't even trained to use it in a tactical situation whatsoever. The Viper, without SAR, using DBS only should have an even worse radar picture that's even more useless than the Hornet.

7 hours ago, Machalot said:

Don't you dare have fun in a manner that is not 1:1 with real USAF conops and doctrine. 

If the capabilities of the radar are exaggerated for gameplay purposes to make it more 'fun' it's a huge problem.

[Cepheus76]

1 hour ago, WobblyFlops said:

If you're going up against fixed targets, like factories, power plants, C2 installation or similar targets, you definitely should have preplanned coordinates in the vast majority of cases. The air to ground radar can show clouds and it doesn't necessarily mean that it would automatically make you an all weather platform as explained above. Even if you're not using IAMs and GPS (for example you're simulating a degraded GPS network),  you should still have steerpoints in the target area and you should be able to penetrate the cloud layer and attack it with LGBs. 

 

 

Düsseldorf METAR current at the time of this posting:

EDDL 191050Z 16012KT 3000 -RADZ BR FEW002 BKN004 BKN009 14/14 Q1018 TEMPO RADZ

I am interested to hear how you would execute an attack with LGBs in this conditions.

[Sinclair_76]

2 hours ago, Cepheus76 said:

Düsseldorf METAR current at the time of this posting:

EDDL 191050Z 16012KT 3000 -RADZ BR FEW002 BKN004 BKN009 14/14 Q1018 TEMPO RADZ

I am interested to hear how you would execute an attack with LGBs in this conditions.

You would use GBU-54 of course. 

But I otherwise agree.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Sinclair_76

[WobblyFlops]

2 hours ago, Cepheus76 said:

I am interested to hear how you would execute an attack with LGBs in this conditions.

If the GPS network is down, use IAMs with INS guidance only. Since that's not simulated in DCS, you either have to descend below the cloud layer to attack with LGBs, or if that's not possible for whatever reason (the weather is so poor, or there's heavy AAA in the area) you can still try using dumb bombs. Note that strike planning takes into consideration the quality of the GPS constellation and the weather near the target. So you'd need a very high value and time sensitive target to warrant using dumb bombs and attacking in such adverse conditions.

 

Keep in mind that this is 100% irrelevant to the topic at hand because regardless of your weapon of choice (IAMs, LGBs, dumb bombs, even the gun) you wouldn't use the A2G radar to generate coordinates, you'd put a steerpoint to the location of the target. If it's such a high value target, it's very realistic to assume that coordinates are available and in general if it's a fixed target, you'd obviously have coordinates even before you take off.

 

The only situation where you'd use the A2G radar is anti shipping (and that's a task for which our Viper isn't the best tool) or attacking moving targets in a killbox but pilots heavily imply that GMT is highly unreliable and isn't as good as it's depicted in DCS. Since in DCS it's an almost magical tool, you can absolutely use it to find moving TOOs but the dude specifically stated that he'd use the ground mapping radar outside of tank hunting. 

[Machalot]

3 hours ago, WobblyFlops said:

If the capabilities of the radar are exaggerated for gameplay purposes to make it more 'fun' it's a huge problem.

Yeah, sure, but that's not DCS.

[Cepheus76]

WobblyFlops, Sinclair76,

Thank you for your replies. However, I am still not entirely convinced that radar is not useful. For example, there might be a time critical high value target, which is mobile and its location is not exactly known. Something like it is only known that the 12. tank brigade is believed to form up for an attack between A-Town and B-Forrest, or something like that. 

[Harker]

WobblyFlops, Sinclair76,
Thank you for your replies. However, I am still not entirely convinced that radar is not useful. For example, there might be a time critical high value target, which is mobile and its location is not exactly known. Something like it is only known that the 12. tank brigade is believed to form up for an attack between A-Town and B-Forrest, or something like that. 

So what if that HVT moves? How do you know that this particular blob on the tiny screen is your target? Plus, real eyes don't zoom in on the display, the way Wags did in his video. And if you're hunting tanks, then you'd use GMT with varying success, depending on whether or not they decide to make it easy on you and move around in open terrain.

Without pretending to know how IRL mission planning happens, I'd imagine that the radar would be used for very large and well defined targets of opportunity, such an AWACS sitting on a taxiway. Airfields, bridges etc that were not initially included in the mission planning, would still be targeted using communicated coordinates.

[Airhunter]

14 hours ago, Machalot said:

Don't you dare have fun in a manner that is not 1:1 with real USAF conops and doctrine. 

It's not about that. People act like it's the best thing since sliced bread and super useful to quikly lock up some grond target and attack it. Mech-scan radar A2G modes, especially on something as small as the APG68 aren't used. Ever. I talked to two active or former Viper drivers and they all just laughed at the fact. It is not trained to nor in any way useful. Nor will it be of much use in DCS tactically unless you built your own mission and know where and what to look for. It's the same story with the Hornet, people really wanted the A2G radar modes wnd once it came out used it for about a week to then fall back to the TGP and other means of accurate targeting. I have not seen anyone mention it or use it in regards to the Hornet anymore. HTS and HAD - very useful. Sniper XR - very useful. ACM slewable - very useful. A2G radar - not useful. 

No one is being an elitist and saying you can't have fun with it or not use it but there is simply this big and very common misconception that it is some sort of air to air-like version of targeting and super common in real ops. I would really like to see said individuals come back after a month or two and report back on how often they used it and how successful they were with finding the thing they needed. Genuinely curious. 

And once again, have fun, enjoy the Viper. No one is telling you not to. 

[Cepheus76]

I mentioned Rosenkranz's book already a few posts further above, however, I'd like to share this short excerpt how he used a/g radar for targeting:

"Our target tonight is the Medina Republican Guard division. According to the map I was given by last night’s MPC team, the unit is situated forty miles west of Basrah on the north side of the Kuwaiti border. If everything goes as planned, we’ll fly north along the Kuwaiti border until we reach the IP. The IP-to-target run is forty miles, and the run-in heading is 093 degrees. Weasel’s plan is to have us roll in from the west, drop our six MK-82s, and egress east. It’s a clear night, so weather shouldn’t be a factor. As soon as I reach the IP, I turn right to a heading of 093, program steerpoint seven, and call up the air-to-ground master mode. The ground-map radar begins to sweep. As soon as the radar breaks out a good set of returns, I slew my cursors on top of them. While using EXP, DBS1, and DBS2, I begin a gradual descent. I expect a flurry of SAMs and AAA, but, so far, Iraq’s big guns are quiet. Approaching the target, I make one last check to ensure that my camera is on and that my master arm switch is in Arm. Everything’s set. At precisely five DME, I roll inverted and commence the attack. Rocketing toward the desert floor at 475 knots, I call up my CCIP pipper. My HUD is full of target returns, and I pickle all six bombs on the first pass. As soon as the bombs come off, I push my throttle to mil power and begin to climb. My RWR is quiet. Still no sign of AAA. Passing 10,000 feet, I roll to the left and wait for the bombs to detonate. Within seconds, six consecutive flashes appear below me. I roll back to the right as I continue to climb, hoping for some secondaries. Unfortunately, there are none. Passing 20,000 feet, I call up steerpoint eight and proceed toward the egress point. Before long, the entire formation passes over Bubiyan Island. After we fence out, Weasel calls for a fuel check and leads us back to Al Minhad. After I engage my autopilot, I reach into my G-suit pocket for a package of granola bars. Since late January, the after-attack snack has become a ritual for me. The stress of combat leaves me physically and mentally exhausted. Watching the stars from 39,000 feet with a granola bar in one hand and a cold bottle of water in the other is a great way to unwind. We touched down at Al Minhad at 22:22 and, after Weasel completed the debrief, the four of us headed back to the beer tent. I grabbed a soda from the bar and joined Opie, Ark, and Senseless at one of the tables. “How’s that LANTIRN shit going, Rosey?” Ark asked sarcastically. “It’s a tough job, but somebody’s got to do it.” “Do you like flying at night?” Senseless asked. “You may think I’m nuts, but I really do. Flying combat at night has its benefits: Iraqi gunners are usually trying to sleep; those that are awake can’t see us; we don’t fly at low altitude; and I enjoy the challenge of flying with a FLIR.” “Did you get any kills?” Senseless asked. “Who knows,” I answered dejectedly. “We were carrying MK-82s, and no one reported any secondaries after they came off. Unless you score a direct hit, you aren’t going to kill anything with a MK-82—especially from medium altitude. This war would be over a lot sooner if we could drop CBU-87, but Scotty says we need to save it for the ground war.” “He tells us the same thing,” Opie said leaning back and rolling his eyes. “Dropping dumb bombs from medium altitude is a waste of time, as far as I’m concerned.”"

Of course, this were the early nineties and the author doesn't mention the mode he used, but it still documents the fact that radar was successfully used to engage targets and that apparently only the choice of munitions led to not achiving catastrophic kills. 

It appears that the electro-optical devices of today are superior to radar in the right conditions, but I wouldn't discount the latter just yet. It seems that there is a time and place for everything and you have to chose whatever is most suitable in a given situation.

[Edit: I just reread my post and noted that he indeed mentioned the mode he used, it was the Ground Map mode]

Reference

Rosenkranz, K., (2002), Vipers in the Storm, p. 236 [Amazon Kindle Edition], The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc

Edited October 19, 2021 by Cepheus76

[Versor]

Some about what we talking about from real fighter pilot. Just for DCS pilot information.

[Crptalk]

People are trying really hard to gatekeep A-G radar and its kind of cringe. Spoilers: not everyone plays the game to min-max.

[Machalot]

1 hour ago, Airhunter said:

It's not about that. People act like it's the best thing since sliced bread and super useful to quikly lock up some grond target and attack it. Mech-scan radar A2G modes, especially on something as small as the APG68 aren't used. Ever. I talked to two active or former Viper drivers and they all just laughed at the fact. It is not trained to nor in any way useful. Nor will it be of much use in DCS tactically unless you built your own mission and know where and what to look for. It's the same story with the Hornet, people really wanted the A2G radar modes wnd once it came out used it for about a week to then fall back to the TGP and other means of accurate targeting. I have not seen anyone mention it or use it in regards to the Hornet anymore. HTS and HAD - very useful. Sniper XR - very useful. ACM slewable - very useful. A2G radar - not useful. 

No one is being an elitist and saying you can't have fun with it or not use it but there is simply this big and very common misconception that it is some sort of air to air-like version of targeting and super common in real ops. I would really like to see said individuals come back after a month or two and report back on how often they used it and how successful they were with finding the thing they needed. Genuinely curious. 

And once again, have fun, enjoy the Viper. No one is telling you not to. 

Well, I don't know how to square what you're saying with the book excerpt above.  At least one pilot has used it in war, presumably was trained to do so, and operated in accordance with established practices and procedures.

I also don't know who you are referring to with this "very common misconception".  My expectations are not that I will see A2A-like symbology that allows me to TWS and queue JDAMs on multiple ground vehicles.  I fly the Viggen as my primary jet.  Its ground mapping radar (while intended primarily for sea ops) provides returns from buildings and vehicles if tuned correctly, and its bombing computer even has a Radar Release mode which is cued by the pilot using reference symbols on the radar screen.  I don't expect to go out on wide area search-and-destroy missions, but if I have a good mission plan and know where I expect the target to be, I can use the radar to refine the aim point and compensate for nav errors.

[TLTeo]

From the report on Air Power in Desert Storm (Volume 4). Again, obviously in the modern day with perfect navigation, perfect intel, and GPS guidance, a mediocre a2g radar is not very useful. That doesn't mean it never was - as Machalot pointed out, the Viggen (and F-104G/S, and A-6, and F-111, to name a few) literally had bomb radar delivery modes before DBS/EXP was even a thing. Was it accurate? Not really. Was it better than nothing? Yep.

[Frederf]

The F-16 is famously poor at radar blind bombing. Yeah, you can get a Pk > 0 with a flight of four loaded with 8 MK84s. It was and is a capability. That doesn't mean it was a good capability. Radar bomb repeatedly and on your 3rd, 4th, 5th sortie you probably blow up the bridge. Better than nothing in 1981.

Radar might not be great for final targeting but it is good for getting near the target for transitioning to visual for the final attack. CCIP being directly after CCRP on the missile step rotary is no accident. Put the radar cursors on the target area, pop up, when TD box is in HUD and target is seen visually, step to CCIP and release. Notice this is exactly how the book excerpt anecdote goes: radar gets you close enough to continue visual. The F-16 did not attack with the GM radar. It attacked with the AGR radar and CCIP.

[WobblyFlops]

4 hours ago, Crptalk said:

People are trying really hard to gatekeep A-G radar and its kind of cringe. Spoilers: not everyone plays the game to min-max.

It's not about gatekeeping, it's about ensuring that realism won't be compromised just because a lot of people want a more arcade experience with simplified avionics 'for fun'.

 

5 hours ago, Cepheus76 said:

Of course, this were the early nineties and the author doesn't mention the mode he used, but it still documents the fact that radar was successfully used to engage targets and that apparently only the choice of munitions led to not achiving catastrophic kills. 

 

Very interesting text. It's a strange contradiction, every Viper or Hornet pilot I managed to talk to about the air to ground radar unequivocally agreed that it's useless, even in the Hornet, which should perform better on paper. It's a possibility that they were simply lying to me (as unlikely as it may be) but it's also possible that the book exaggerates the role of the radar plus it's not exactly a rigorous examination on its effectiveness anyway. Maybe that sortie was indeed successful but how reliable was it? How much did certain conditions (reflectivity, ground clutter, weather, etc.) degrade the capability? How important is it to know the target's location in advance? Was it only useful for certain specific target types? 

Keep in mind that doctrine and capabilities in the 90s wouldn't necessarily apply for a 2007 Viper.

 

 

[TLTeo]

Out of curiosity, when did those people fly the Viper? Because (and that's the whole point I've been trying to make) there's a major difference between fairly large scale affairs like Desert Storm or a potential Cold War gone hot, and a modern-ish (as in, Allied Force and afterwards) CAS type operation where limiting collateral damage is almost the main goal.

[ebabil]

Are we getting hts pod today? I haven't seen a video from Wags