DCS: F-16C Viper Roadmap

[Bagpipe]

15 minutes ago, Versor said:

Something has to change. The video in 2:30 shows that the F-18 is not as maneuverable at low speeds and cannot turn back on the spot, as it is in the DCS.

The F-16 is not that poorly maneuverable at low speeds. I can't operate my Viper nose like that at low speeds.

Overall, it seems to me that the F-18 too quickly recovering his low speed. The F-16 accelerates from low speeds as if it had half the available thrust.

What you think guys.

 

 

 

You are assuming far too much from a video buddy

[Versor]

That's possible. I am not saying that I am definitely right. I've never flown a real F-18 or an F-16. I just pay attention to it.

[Bagpipe]

3 hours ago, Versor said:

That's possible. I am not saying that I am definitely right. I've never flown a real F-18 or an F-16. I just pay attention to it.

To the video?

 

Respectfully, you can't know what the pilot's were doing in the cockpit, the only way to know what the bug is capable of is to look at the flight test data and compare it to the DCS simulated data. Anything else is just hearsay I'm afraid 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Bagpipe

[SCPanda]

8 hours ago, Bagpipe said:

To the video?

 

Respectfully, you can't know what the pilot's were doing in the cockpit, the only way to know what the bug is capable of is to look at the flight test data and compare it to the DCS simulated data. Anything else is just hearsay I'm afraid 

 

But, EM chart for the F-18 is not avaliable as the Viper. ED guessed the performance of the Hornet and it's overperforming like crazy. They literally made Hornet, the high alpha fighter into a rate figher like the Viper. 

[wilbur81]

1 hour ago, SCPanda said:

But, EM chart for the F-18 is not avaliable as the Viper. ED guessed the performance of the Hornet and it's overperforming like crazy. They literally made Hornet, the high alpha fighter into a rate figher like the Viper. 

Show us our current Open Beta Hornet out-rating our current (and now improved) Open Beta Viper... then look our Devs in the eye and say, "you guys just guessed on the Hornet's performance." Finally, prove to the folks here that the current Hornet (which is still being updated, just like our Viper) is over performing "like crazy" based upon those EM charts for the Lot 20 you don't have. 

[Fromthedeep]

3 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

you don't have

No one has them outside of the military, they are still classified. Wags talked about it on the fighter pilot podcast and specifically mentioned that the Hornet's flight model doesn't even use all the publically available data because the military told them to do so (https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/gkj3dn/with_the_a10cii_in_the_works_i_hope_ed_will_take/fqvwkj0/), let alone real EM charts.

[Raviar]

2 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

No one has them outside of the military, they are still classified. Wags talked about it on the fighter pilot podcast and specifically mentioned that the Hornet's flight model doesn't even use all the publically available data because the military told them to do so (https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/gkj3dn/with_the_a10cii_in_the_works_i_hope_ed_will_take/fqvwkj0/), let alone real EM charts.

can you link the video with timing please?

[Versor]

I asked a question to get your opinions, but in fact we don't even know the real FM cards, this discussion will be just about nothing.

It is what it is and that's it. And it's good that that we have the possibility to fly these planes at all

[SCPanda]

5 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

Show us our current Open Beta Hornet out-rating our current (and now improved) Open Beta Viper... then look our Devs in the eye and say, "you guys just guessed on the Hornet's performance." Finally, prove to the folks here that the current Hornet (which is still being updated, just like our Viper) is over performing "like crazy" based upon those EM charts for the Lot 20 you don't have. 

LOL you again... Your profile picture says it all.

 

They did guess the Hornet's performance. That's a fact. Here is the performance comparison in DCS: https://dcs.silver.ru/77,71,IAS_kts,turnrate 

 

The only avaliale information regarding Horent's turn performance vs Viper is from real pilots. They claimed Viper outrates Hornet in a 2 circle fight. 

 

Hey how about this: Our DCS Hornet is underperforming and it should rate at 30 degrees per second. Does this make you happy? I mean no one has the EM charts for the Hornet so let's make it turn like a F-22

Edited October 13, 2021 by SCPanda

[wilbur81]

4 hours ago, SCPanda said:

LOL you again... Your profile picture says it all.

 

That's true. As a husband, father, and coach... I only have time to fly master one DCS module as those former three things are WAY more important. If the Viper had come out before the Hornet, it'd be the jet I'd fly (and I was a day one pre-purchase guy with the Viper... and there's a 1:18th scale Viper hanging over my simpit, and I've flown the Block 30 simulator for the real thing at an Air National Guard base here in the states, and I have a good friend flying Vipers at Shaw.... I love the Viper, it was my second love after the Eagle).

But a quick click of your activity stream reveals that you're a Viper guy: perhaps you like the generic profile pic so that you can appear neutral? Sorry Devs, we're off topic for sure.

**** And I've watched the FPP episode with Wags MANY times. That "guessing" on the Hornet flight model is 100% based upon SME feedback and all the documentation they can get their hands on. In other words, these are HIGHLY educated guesses... not "we're Hornet fan-boys so lets make it like a Raptor."

Invitation is still there, SCP: Show us a video of you out-rating our current Viper with our current Hornet...and no cheating with the paddle switch.

PS - It's been discussed ad nauseum around here, but I still wonder how many people judge the Hornet as outsiders because they are flying against someone in the Hornet MP that crushes them because they are using the paddle switch/g-limiter override?

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by wilbur81

[Noctrach]

Aerodynamically it's just bizarre that the airframe with slightly lower thrust to weight and much straighter (draggier) wing profile has an almost 1.5 degree sustained turn rate advantage and significantly lower AoA over the entire speed range.

Tight radius, better nose authority, higher max AoA better sustained rate at low speed is all something I can understand.

The current numbers, I do not.

[Spurts]

Lot 20 is not overperforming.  Not every video or pilot story was in/against a Lot 20.  Of the 1,480 Legacy Hornets made only 18 were Lot 20s from what I am seeing, 10 Cs and 8 Ds.  So, you can basically bank on any video you see or story you hear NOT being a Lot 20.  Why does this matter?  Lot 20 got the F414 EPE.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Spurts

[Versor]

55 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Lot 20 is not overperforming. 

 

Nobody knows because we don't have any real information but you know  From where? You are real F-18 C pilot ?

[Noctrach]

1 hour ago, Spurts said:

Lot 20 is not overperforming.  Not every video or pilot story was in/against a Lot 20.  Of the 1,480 Legacy Hornets made only 18 were Lot 20s from what I am seeing, 10 Cs and 8 Ds.  So, you can basically bank on any video you see or story you hear NOT being a Lot 20.  Why does this matter?  Lot 20 got the F414 EPE.

 

Pretty sure the Lot 20 -C models got the 404-GE-402 in place of the 404-GE-400 (16000 lbf -> 17700 lbf). The 414 is Super Hornet.

The point being that the aircraft that is provably modeled accurately, has 10% better thrust and is aerodynamically designed to be an excellent rate fighter, is being significantly outperformed by its draggier brother designed for tight radius and unlimited AoA. I don't think a 2% wing loading advantage can explain that.

But we're drifting extremely off-topic and this subject has been done to death and will mostly likely never improve, since physics can be ignored for the lack of EM diagrams and customer satisfaction. It's an F/A-18DCS after all and ED can model it how they want, we'll just have to deal with the result.

We're all gonna have to deal with Typhoons at some point anyway...

I hope the G-onset tweaks for the Viper will give us another tool in our box to work with

Edited October 13, 2021 by Noctrach

[wilbur81]

2 hours ago, Noctrach said:

Pretty sure the Lot 20 -C models got the 404-GE-402 in place of the 404-GE-400 (16000 lbf -> 17700 lbf). 

The point being that the aircraft that is provably modeled accurately, has 10% better thrust and is aerodynamically designed to be an excellent rate fighter, is being significantly outperformed by its draggier brother designed for tight radius and unlimited AoA. I don't think a 2% wing loading advantage can explain that.

 

All Lot 20's have the EP -402 engine... that is correct. As for your statement: "is being significantly outperformed by its draggier brother" -> Prove it. Show us a video of our current Hornet out-rating our current Viper. No paddle switch allowed. Make sure you confirm it's the latest O.B. version, weapons loadouts, pylons, and fuel weight as well when you do your testing. And no TacView...which gives notoriously strange numbers. It must be in-game.

I've fought a good number of Vipers in BFM. IF I win in gunzo BFM, I NEVER win by rate. I one-circle and enter the fight below 370 kts. If I get the kill, I'm typically at or below 200 kts. And I'm not a "paddle-puller." Try it for yourself: The current DCS Hornet bleeds like a pig at or below 370 kts. Again, my guess is that the Hornet, entering into a fight at 450kts with the paddle pulled can probably match rates pretty close with a Viper depending on configurations... but it destroys the airframe, which is one of the reasons why it is limited to 7.5 g. The Hornet is a VERY capable 9 G aircraft in Finland... but they've got a tweaked FCS and don't have to worry about salt water and Carrier crashe.... I mean landings. People like to talk a lot about the thrust to weight on the Viper being better than the Hornet... but it depends doesn't it? The -402 C Hornet has more thrust than a Viper, but it is also heavier and draggier... except under certain conditions. If I enter a fight in the hornet with no stores remaining and only 4500 lbs of gas, I'm going to have a slightly better T/W ratio than the adversary Viper whose carrying 85-90% fuel, 2 winders, and a couple of AMRAAMS...

And I agree... the Typhoon will be the BFM death of us all. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by wilbur81

[Versor]

28 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

All Lot 20's have the EP -402 engine... that is correct. As for your statement: "is being significantly outperformed by its draggier brother" -> Prove it. Show us a video of our current Hornet out-rating our current Viper. No paddle switch allowed. Make sure you confirm it's the latest O.B. version, weapons loadouts, pylons, and fuel weight as well when you do your testing. And no TacView...which gives notoriously strange numbers. It must be in-game.

I've fought a good number of Vipers in BFM. IF I win in gunzo BFM, I NEVER win by rate. I one-circle and enter the fight below 370 kts. If I get the kill, I'm typically at or below 200 kts. And I'm not a "paddle-puller." Try it for yourself: The current DCS Hornet bleeds like a pig at or below 370 kts. Again, my guess is that Our Hornet, entering into a fight at 450kts with the paddle pulled can probably match rates with a Viper... but it destroys the airframe, which is one of the reasons why it is limited to 7.5 g. The Hornet is a VERY capable 9 G aircraft in Finland... but they've got a tweaked FCS and don't have to worry about salt water and Carrier crashe.... I mean landings.

And I agree... the Typhoon will be the BFM death of us all. 

 

Are you kidding me right?

F-18vsF-16.zip.acmi

[wilbur81]

2 minutes ago, Versor said:

Are you kidding me right?

F-18vsF-16.zip.acmi 597.72 kB · 0 downloads

"Show us a video of our current Hornet out-rating our current Viper. No paddle switch allowed. Make sure you confirm it's the latest O.B. version, weapons loadouts, pylons, and fuel weight as well when you do your testing. And no TacView...which gives notoriously strange numbers. It must be in-game."

[Versor]

8 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

"Show us a video of our current Hornet out-rating our current Viper. No paddle switch allowed. Make sure you confirm it's the latest O.B. version, weapons loadouts, pylons, and fuel weight as well when you do your testing. And no TacView...which gives notoriously strange numbers. It must be in-game."

No TacView? In game ? OK we could do some BFM. And why with no paddle switch??

[Spurts]

OMG!  I'm so sorry about the "414" typo, 404 EPE is what I was referring to.  I'm glad @Noctrach caught it and corrected me.  Sorry everyone!

[TheBigTatanka]

Hey guys.... Original poster here.....

Thanks for all the feedback and thoughts on this. The question i asked had to do just with how pylons affected performance in sustained turns.

Last night we went and flew 6 F-16s against 6 Hornets in a series of 1v1 BFM high aspect sets. We were all 2x2 with one bag. Hornets had 2 pylons. Everyone was pretty competent in terms of skill level. The results were that the Viper was able to patiently out-rate the hornets after beating them down on energy within about 3 merges.

The hornet was very dangerous if playing to its strengths, but not so much when the opponents are aware of the sight pictures that lead to misaligned turn circles and hornet gameplans.

Thanks everyone for your input here. Bottom line is that the lot 20 hornet can rate about as well as an F-16, unless the hornet is carrying 2-4 pylons, which generally checks with what I've been told about the real lot 20.

Thanks.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[wilbur81]

1 hour ago, TheBigTatanka said:

Hey guys.... Original poster here.....

Thanks for all the feedback and thoughts on this. The question i asked had to do just with how pylons affected performance in sustained turns.

Last night we went and flew 6 F-16s against 6 Hornets in a series of 1v1 BFM high aspect sets. We were all 2x2 with one bag. Hornets had 2 pylons. Everyone was pretty competent in terms of skill level. The results were that the Viper was able to patiently out-rate the hornets after beating them down on energy within about 3 merges.

The hornet was very dangerous if playing to its strengths, but not so much when the opponents are aware of the sight pictures that lead to misaligned turn circles and hornet gameplans.

Thanks everyone for your input here. Bottom line is that the lot 20 hornet can rate about as well as an F-16, unless the hornet is carrying 2-4 pylons, which generally checks with what I've been told about the real lot 20.

Thanks.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Thread solved.  

[SCPanda]

22 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

perhaps you like the generic profile pic so that you can appear neutral?

No. I'm just too lazy to change my profile picture. But I'm not neutral, I like the Viper more. Hornet is ugly. 

22 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

Invitation is still there, SCP: Show us a video of you out-rating our current Viper with our current Hornet...and no cheating with the paddle switch.

PS - It's been discussed ad nauseum around here, but I still wonder how many people judge the Hornet as outsiders because they are flying against someone in the Hornet MP that crushes them because they are using the paddle switch/g-limiter override?

So you just ignored the link I posted in my previous reply? Whatever, I will post it again. https://dcs.silver.ru/77,71,IAS_kts,turnrate Hornet rating at 350 knots at 1000m (altitude is on the top left corner of the page in case you failed to see) at 6.5G (so no paddle, like you asked), STR is 19.08 degrees per second. Viper rating at 440 knots at 1000m at 7.94G, STR is 18.58 degrees per second. Also, anyone can see in the graph Hornet's turn rate is better at the Viper in all speed ranges. So paddle or no paddle, DCS Hornet outrates the DCS Viper. I don't need to show you a video. A video of two players dogfighting has too many factors involved and proves nothing. Test data says it all (I didn't do those tests btw, in case you want to question something I deliberately did to make the Hornet rate better). Your bad Hornet piloting skills in BFM casuing you to lose to a Viper doesn't mean Viper can outrate a Hornet in DCS. I fly the Hornet almost exclusively in dogfight severs everyday, I can take on a Viper anytime without a sweat. 

If you look at the data and still deny the facts, then there's nothing I need to discuss with you anymore. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by SCPanda

[wilbur81]

2 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Hornet is ugly. 

 I don't need to show you a video. .

I didn't do those tests

Your bad Hornet piloting skills 

I fly the Hornet almost exclusively in dogfight severs everyday, I can take on a Viper anytime without a sweat. 

Nice 

That's interesting that you fly a jet "almost exclusively" in MP that you find ugly and believe to be over-performing. Do you get satisfaction out of those "anytime" and "without a sweat" victories over those underperforming Vipers, knowing that you have (in your assessment) an unfair advantage?

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by wilbur81

[Enduro14]

LOL,  Viper is WIP

[Wizard_03]

There's no hard data out here that says the EPE hornet without pylons CANT out rate the viper. Just a lot of pilot testimony and antidotal stories. All of who will almost certainly have had pylons/stores (which by the way makes a huge difference for the hornet specifically) and or have not flown the EPE version, and furthermore are absolutely not sharing hard numbers.

So no factual or definite, way to say it's over performing compared to the real thing. We're going to have to trust ED  either now the way it is or to fix it if there is an issue. 

The viper has charts available and ED has posted their targets for it so not really worth comparing the two. Since we don't have the information we need. But the premise that the viper is just a rate monster compared to the hornet and should STR the hell out of it across the envelope may just turn out to be false and or is only representative of early versions of the jets or unrealistic configurations.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Wizard_03