Apache AH-64D Flight Characteristics / FM - what could I expect?

[Dangerzone]

Hi,

 

Just wondering what I can expect when it comes to the AH-64D flight characteristics compared to other DCS modules. What will VRS be like - will it be similar to the Hind, or is it more or less forgiving? What about agility - again will it be like the hind, or closer to the Huey, or something completely different? What about power? Do generators shut off like the hind if I apply too much collective too quickly - or is it more like the UH-1 where the rev's go down and the RFP alarm goes off?  How forgiving will it be to fly compared to other modules?

 

Will I be "on my toes" with anti-torque control like the Huey every time the collective or cyclic is adjusted - or is it more 'automatic' like the hind? On a level of difficulty of 1-10 where would you rate the current helicopters in DCS and where would you expect the Apache to fit? 

 

The only apache I have ever flown before was in Gunship 2000, so I'm expecting this to be a bit different.  And I know that we won't know for sure until the Apache comes out - but for those who have an understanding of the real life Apache - please let me know what I can be expecting from this module? 

[Raptor9]

@Dangerzone this thread can provide some insight into the flight control logic. As for how the FM will feel, yeah like you said, we'll have to wait for it to come out.

 

The generators will go offline if the rotor RPMs go low enough, like the Hind and Black Shark, but at that point you should be more concerned with the fact the rotor RPMs are so low, probably from applying WAY to much collective or losing an engine.

 

A common mistake when getting into a power limitation is to simply pull more collective to increase the pitch of the blades. But this just causes the RPMs to drop lower.  For whatever lift you gain from an increase in rotor blade pitch, you are actually losing more lift from the rotor blades slowing down.

 

It's the same thing in aircraft. If you start to slow down in an aircraft, you lose lift, and you can pitch back to increase your AoA. However, this creates more drag, causing you to slow down even more, reducing the lift your wings are producing, eventually to the point you stall and fall.  So in an aircraft, to prevent a stall, you lower the nose to regain airspeed. Same thing with a helicopter; you lower the pitch of the blades with a reduction in collective to reduce drag and regain the airspeed over your rotors by regaining RPMs, thereby regaining lift.

 

The key to maneuvering a helicopter that is either very heavily-loaded or operating in a high density altitude environment, is "power management". It's a slightly mis-leading term, because one of the important factors in power management is also managing your airspeed along with your power to take advantage of translational lift and lower drag regimes of the rotor system.

 

TL;DR: rotor RPMs > collective pitch.

Keep a rotor system spinning in it's designed operating RPM range, and you won't have to worry about generators going offline.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Raptor9

[bies]

I can add I've heard an interview with the veteran Apache pilot instructor, available on YT. He said different configuration/variants behave differently.

 

AH-64A - the lightest, the fastest, the most maneuverable and with the best power to weight, called sport variant.

AH-64D - heavier, less maneuverable and less performance due to increased mass, but more modern avionics.

AH-64D with FCR - even heavier and less maneuverable/less excess power due to additional FCR mass + it's mounted on top of the mast which is apparently especially adverse place to add mass.

Edited August 3, 2021 by bies

[ApacheDoctor]

The most lawyer answer ever-it depends.

 

The Apache is a heavy monster. Empty, she sits around the 18000 lbs mark. Add fuel, bullets, missiles, and rockets, you’re going to be reaching the max performance capability of this beast relatively quickly. Go with a standard late OEF load out, which was remove the inboard pylons, a Robbi tank (more gas instead of ammo), 300 rounds of boom boom, rockets on one station and 2 114s on the other, and now you have something that will sit right in the middle of the performance envelope. Helicopters don’t do well in the mountains…

 

Dead mans corner comes to mind same way that coffin corner does for high altitude performance in jets. Add density altitude into the mix, so think some of the potential missions into the Caucuses, and you are going to be in trouble. 

 

Sea level stuff such as Syria and the lower coastal areas of the maps, this conversation is null and avoid. 

 

The Flight model will depend on what you decide to put on it. There is also ITAR concerns too, so don’t expect a perfect match on the whole book answer. 

[salsantana]

Dangerzone, your inquiries echo some of my own about the Apache, and also your points about the UH-1 and Hind 24. My biggest challenge in my initial hours with the Apache is how to deal with rotor RPM and its holistic effects such as overheating and systems failures. I haven't yet found a thread focused on RPM management....... from my personal experience this is quite the challenge but I'm sure that somewhere between propulsion, gravity, and systems tolerances there's a "sweet spot"......... probably a rather narrow window but such is the price for the Apache's incredible agility.

I much appreciate the points throughout these responses....... especially the points about aerodynamic surfaces; except for the rudder, the more air traveling over them the better they work. Once again in response to Dangerzone's quite familiar inquiries, the DCS AH-64D's quality of performance, my confidence in its authenticity and available support made this package WELL worth both the $$$ and wait. "What's not to like????"

[Dangerzone]

3 hours ago, salsantana said:

Dangerzone, your inquiries echo some of my own about the Apache, and also your points about the UH-1 and Hind 24. My biggest challenge in my initial hours with the Apache is how to deal with rotor RPM and its holistic effects such as overheating and systems failures. I haven't yet found a thread focused on RPM management....... from my personal experience this is quite the challenge but I'm sure that somewhere between propulsion, gravity, and systems tolerances there's a "sweet spot"......... probably a rather narrow window but such is the price for the Apache's incredible agility.

I much appreciate the points throughout these responses....... especially the points about aerodynamic surfaces; except for the rudder, the more air traveling over them the better they work. Once again in response to Dangerzone's quite familiar inquiries, the DCS AH-64D's quality of performance, my confidence in its authenticity and available support made this package WELL worth both the $$$ and wait. "What's not to like????"

Well, the wait is over and we're able to experience it first hand. Keep in mind that it is Open Beta + Early Access, so flight characteristics might be subject to change (although It's also my understanding that ED have done significant work to 'get it right' before release), so may not... but anyway:

VRS is much more forgiving than the hind. 

Rotor RPM I think is WIP. I've managed to fly it at 130% for a while to see what happens, and nothing falls off (yet). Haven't managed to shut off the generators in flight despite flying it beyond any normal realms trying to punish it. Does seem that you can get yourself into trouble with power though if you're not managing it (or being ahead of it with what you want to do) - but I think with time that will become more instinctual as to when you can and can't do stuff.

Definitely need a bit of anti-torque (rudder) to get it right - which I actually enjoy the challenge of, but it's not over the top either. Honestly - first impressions on the flight model are that which I can see I'm going to enjoy a lot of. 

Biggest gripe I probably have is no "Force Trim Reset" option. I find that getting me in trouble at the moment, and have to have the axis dialog up (CTRL+Enter) as a reminder of where the trim is set and how to get it back to centre when needed. 

[dburne]

6 minutes ago, Dangerzone said:

Well, the wait is over and we're able to experience it first hand. Keep in mind that it is Open Beta + Early Access, so flight characteristics might be subject to change (although It's also my understanding that ED have done significant work to 'get it right' before release), so may not... but anyway:

VRS is much more forgiving than the hind. 

Rotor RPM I think is WIP. I've managed to fly it at 130% for a while to see what happens, and nothing falls off (yet). Haven't managed to shut off the generators in flight despite flying it beyond any normal realms trying to punish it. Does seem that you can get yourself into trouble with power though if you're not managing it (or being ahead of it with what you want to do) - but I think with time that will become more instinctual as to when you can and can't do stuff.

Definitely need a bit of anti-torque (rudder) to get it right - which I actually enjoy the challenge of, but it's not over the top either. Honestly - first impressions on the flight model are that which I can see I'm going to enjoy a lot of. 

Biggest gripe I probably have is no "Force Trim Reset" option. I find that getting me in trouble at the moment, and have to have the axis dialog up (CTRL+Enter) as a reminder of where the trim is set and how to get it back to centre when needed. 

Yeah I am with you on that last part. One can get very much in trouble if not careful with that force trim. Don't try to do too much with it at a time. Small steps.

[razorseal]

13 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Biggest gripe I probably have is no "Force Trim Reset" option. I find that getting me in trouble at the moment, and have to have the axis dialog up (CTRL+Enter) as a reminder of where the trim is set and how to get it back to centre when needed. 

 

Same here... I gotta open up the controls view and center it myself. Wish there was a cheat button to reset it since our joysticks don't stay in the position like a FFB or the real thing would.

[Tepnox]

On 8/1/2021 at 10:42 AM, Dangerzone said:

Hi,

 

Just wondering what I can expect when it comes to the AH-64D flight characteristics compared to other DCS modules. What will VRS be like - will it be similar to the Hind, or is it more or less forgiving? What about agility - again will it be like the hind, or closer to the Huey, or something completely different? What about power? Do generators shut off like the hind if I apply too much collective too quickly - or is it more like the UH-1 where the rev's go down and the RFP alarm goes off?  How forgiving will it be to fly compared to other modules?

 

Will I be "on my toes" with anti-torque control like the Huey every time the collective or cyclic is adjusted - or is it more 'automatic' like the hind? On a level of difficulty of 1-10 where would you rate the current helicopters in DCS and where would you expect the Apache to fit? 

 

The only apache I have ever flown before was in Gunship 2000, so I'm expecting this to be a bit different.  And I know that we won't know for sure until the Apache comes out - but for those who have an understanding of the real life Apache - please let me know what I can be expecting from this module? 

Expect a very weak hover but very agile and stable in-flight characteristics. I own the KA-50 and flew the Huey and Hind in a trial-period.

I would say the Apache is on par with the Hind (but with much more technical stuff packed like the enormous amount of sensors and night-flight capabilities). Definately harder to fly than the KA-50.

The hover is a weakspot for the Apache - not as forgiving as with the KA-50. But the Hind was similar but more stable in hover-mode. Difficulty would be 7/10 when the KA-50 is a 5/10.

[poochies]

Yes definitely tough to master the hover and transitioning from fwd flight to hover, gotta trim in that sweet spot ....