Mosquito removable Hispanos

[Krupi]

51 minutes ago, Mogster said:

 

Presumably rockets and Molins would have been too heavy?

 

 

I think it was more about operational effectiveness, in theory the Mossie could carry Bombs and Rockets however operationally they made rocket and bomb squadrons separate so each could train to use the assigned weapon effectively so that might have been the case with the TSETSE? 

[RG2021]

On 8/3/2021 at 5:03 AM, rkk01 said:

not just the aircraft, but crew training as well.  

It seems everyone has misunderstood my point. I didn’t mean that they could swap the cannons for bombs and use the aircraft as a carpet bomber, I meant that they could use it like they would’ve used it.

 

For example, the Mosquito B models were used by the bomber command and carpet bombed targets in formation, yes?

 

Well the normal FB’s dropped bombs on pinpoint targets such as the Amiens prison and the Gestapo HQ. They flew low and fast and were often in a shallow dive.

 

Well a converted FB would STILL drop its bombs like a normal FB, but it would simply have more bombs to drop.
 

I was NOT suggesting that a converted FB would drop it’s bombs like a B model.

[rkk01]

Not sure the Mossie was ever used for “carpet bombing”…

 

…and with the exception of disastrous early war daylight missions, the RAF didn’t go in for formation bombing.  Bomber Command’s night bombing offensive was based on the “Bomber Stream” concept - each crew / navigator responsible for their own route to the target and back, with the overall objective of achieving a time and altitude over the target and with all bombers passing through within a given time window (which could be hours on large raids to minimise collision risk)

 

The Bomber Command B variant Mossies would have been used for nuisance raids - diversionary attacks to draw nightfighters from the main “Heavies” route / target, or for target indicator marking as part of the Pathfinder force.

[Bozon]

3 hours ago, Mogster said:

Presumably rockets and Molins would have been too heavy?

I don’t think that this was a weight issue. It is probably more of an issue of not being able to effectively deploy both weapons.
 

The Mollins was a pretty accurate weapon and in an attack run they would target specific locations on the ship and attempt to release several rounds (fire rate about 1 per sec) in one run. This required too much concentration to be able to fire the rockets at the same time. In reports I’ve read none were able to fire all their 6 pounder ammo even when making multiple passes.

 

The great thing about the rockets is that you can salvo all of them, front load all your damage potential - and bug out of the way for the mosquito behind you to do the same. This is incompatible with a long steady attack run with the Mollins. With Coastal command the rocket toting Mosquitoes and Beau’s would go in first, then the tse-tses, and finally Torbeaus if they had any.

 

[Robi-wan]

6 hours ago, Bozon said:

While 18 FB.XVIII were produced under this version tag, about 9 more came off of the production line as FB.VI and immediately converted to FB.XVIII. This creates some confusion regarding the exact number of XVIII’s that saw action because in most lists they appear as FB.VIs.

 

The only Tsetse airframes I have been able to track down are:

HJ 732 Delivered to AAEE Jun 43 

HX 902 Delivered to AAEE Sep 43 to 248 Sqn* Oct 43 (FTR Nov 43)

HX 903 Delivered Oct 43 to 248 Sqn* (Mid-air Jun 44)

HX 904 Delivered Oct 43 to 248 Sqn* >> 254 Sqn

MM 424 Delivered Feb 44 to 248 Sqn* >> 254 Sqn

MM 425 Delivered Apr 44 to 248 Sqn* (gear collapse Dec 44)

NT 220 Delivered Jun 44 to RAE for testing

NT 224 Delivered Jun 44 to 248 Sqn, (FTR Dec 44)

NT 225 Delivered Jun/Jul 44 to 248 Sqn

PZ 251 Delivered Jul 44 to 248 Sqn (FTR Oct 44)

PZ 252 Delivered Jul  to 248 Sqn >> 254 Sqn

PZ 300 Delivered Aug 44 to 248 Sqn >> 254 Sqn (DBR May 45)

PZ 301 Delivered Aug 44 to 248 Sqn >> 254 Sqn

PZ 346 Delivered Sep 44 to 248 Sqn (FTR Dec 44)

PZ 467 Delivered Oct 44 to DH >> 27 MU >> USN

PZ 468 Delivered Nov 44 to DH >> 248 Sqn Dec 44 >> 254 Sqn

PZ 469 Delivered Dec 44 to 27 MU 

PZ 470 Delivered Jan 45 to 27 MU

 

I can only find evidence that 13 of the 18 Tsetse Mosquitos saw action. I don't have the exact dates for the the handful that 248 Sqn handed over to 254 Sqn (a Beaufighter squadron where Tsetse Mosquitos made up a special flight). The asterisks indicate those flown by the crews of 618 Sqn attached to 248 Sqn as chronicled by Des Curtiss in A Most Secret Squadron.

 

 

[Robi-wan]

2 hours ago, RG2021 said:

Well the normal FB’s dropped bombs on pinpoint targets such as the Amiens prison and the Gestapo HQ. They flew low and fast and were often in a shallow dive.

 

Well a converted FB would STILL drop its bombs like a normal FB, but it would simply have more bombs to drop.

 

If you happen to be REALLY interested in RAF squadron history you can download PDF versions of their Operations Record Books (ORBs) from the National Archives. Your query might be worded as "107 Squadron Operations Record Book." Just throwing that out there for folks that might not have known this.

 

Anyway...you can find out some pretty interesting stuff. For example: prior to D-Day FB Mosquito squadrons like No. 107 Squadron flew some tests where a gaggle of their FBs flew daylight missions at medium altitude in formation with Oboe Pathfinder Mosquitos attacking V-1 sites. They dropped when the Oboe Mosquito dropped. This method was not effective and was discontinued. 

 

As to your second part, speaking strictly of general purpose bombs of the 500 lb variety, a B could only carry two more than an FB. So here's a brief overview.

 

This image is a summary of FB deliveries by month. Initial deliveries of FB primarily went to Intruder squadrons 418 Sqn and 605 Sqn that operated primarily at night (single ship). As FB Mosquitos appeared in 2 TAF squadrons, each squadron went through periods of mostly daylight missions, but by D-Day they too were primarily flying night (single ship) Intruder/Flower/Ranger sorties. Coastal Command's 333 Sqn only equipped one Flight with Mosquitos, whilst the other flight flew Catalina.

 

 

Looking at Coastal Command squadrons with FBs you see that prior to D-Day only two squadrons were operational but again 333 Sqn was equipped with less than a dozen. 254 Sqn was always a Beaufighter squadron that added a Flight of a half dozen FB very late in the war. 404 Squadron was a late conversion from Beaufighters. From my research, and looking at pictures, only Coastal Command use RPs. 

 

 

 

This truncated image shows B variant deliveries (I cut off the early B.IV Series 1 deliveries to 105 Sqn). Prior to June 1943 105 Sqn and 139 Sqn flew daylight sorties primarily in small formations at low level. In June 1943 those squadrons joined 8 Group switching to night missions. 109 Sqn was the first Oboe squadron (special pathfinder kit) and not a typical bomber squadron. 105 Sqn transitioned to Oboe. 139 Sqn became a pathfinder without Oboe, typically leading missions to Berlin (out of Oboe range). 627 Sqn became a pathfinder squadron and transferred to work primarily with 5 Group squadrons often marking from very low altitude. The other seven squadrons were primarily bombers. You can see when each started flying ops. The squadrons where you see XVI were able to carry the 4,000 lb cookie. Those with XX or XXV typically carried 4 x 500 lb bombs on mission according to their ORBs.

 

Takeaway...FBs could NEVER carry the 4,000 lb cookie.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Robi-wan

[rkk01]

Agreed that the Operations Record Books are an invaluable source of info…

 

Also known, and searchable as AIR 27, they are basically the operational log for each squadron. Must have been completed by the CO or Adj. The style and content can vary depending on the individual writing up the record.

 

Form AIR 27 has been the only way I have managed to dig into info / records for an aircrew relative… best approach I have found is to search by squadron / year and then browse through the search returns.  Generally, these consist of “Summary of Events” and “Record of Events” forms. The summaries can be monthly but sometimes longer periods and cover general flying, weather, training and promotions, transfers, casualties. The record of events is a log of each operation and gives airframe, crew, weapon load, target and a brief description

 

ETA it is quite sobering to see the operational intensity of some of the main force bomber squadrons. Ops on consecutive nights, long flights, fog bound returns… and looking at monthly records over say a year, how few of the crews were the same

I remember my relative saying he didn’t like Ops to Milan or Turin - an 8-9 hour flight in a Stirling and insufficient ceiling to fly over the Alps. They had to navigate through the mountains… at night in a fully loaded four engined bomber

Edited August 5, 2021 by rkk01

[DD_Fenrir]

20 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

I remember my relative saying he didn’t like Ops to Milan or Turin - an 8-9 hour flight in a Stirling and insufficient ceiling to fly over the Alps. They had to navigate through the mountains… at night in a fully loaded four engined bomber

 

 

[rkk01]

@Robi-wan a quick question about AIR 27 / Operations Record Books…

 

… is there an equivalent searchable record for the OCU / HCU units??

 

Tours start / end with postings from or to these units and the trails for individual aircrew go cold… Particularly interested in 1657 CU and 1699 HCU

 

(apologies drifting a long way from Hispano cannon fit )

[Robi-wan]

1 hour ago, rkk01 said:

@Robi-wan a quick question about AIR 27 / Operations Record Books…

 

… is there an equivalent searchable record for the OCU / HCU units??

 

Tours start / end with postings from or to these units and the trails for individual aircrew go cold… Particularly interested in 1657 CU and 1699 HCU

 

(apologies drifting a long way from Hispano cannon fit )

 

I've not found any equivalent, for OCUs, HCUs or in my case Mosquito OTUs. You are probably well aware of the Royal Air Force personnel guide, you could always try the chat feature to get a better idea. Sorry I couldn't help.

 

 

 

[Bozon]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:35 PM, Robi-wan said:

 

The only Tsetse airframes I have been able to track down are:

HJ 732 Delivered to AAEE Jun 43 

HX 902 Delivered to AAEE Sep 43 to 248 Sqn* Oct 43 (FTR Nov 43)

HX 903 Delivered Oct 43 to 248 Sqn* (Mid-air Jun 44)

HX 904 Delivered Oct 43 to 248 Sqn* >> 254 Sqn

MM 424 Delivered Feb 44 to 248 Sqn* >> 254 Sqn

MM 425 Delivered Apr 44 to 248 Sqn* (gear collapse Dec 44)

NT 220 Delivered Jun 44 to RAE for testing

NT 224 Delivered Jun 44 to 248 Sqn, (FTR Dec 44)

NT 225 Delivered Jun/Jul 44 to 248 Sqn

PZ 251 Delivered Jul 44 to 248 Sqn (FTR Oct 44)

PZ 252 Delivered Jul  to 248 Sqn >> 254 Sqn

PZ 300 Delivered Aug 44 to 248 Sqn >> 254 Sqn (DBR May 45)

PZ 301 Delivered Aug 44 to 248 Sqn >> 254 Sqn

PZ 346 Delivered Sep 44 to 248 Sqn (FTR Dec 44)

PZ 467 Delivered Oct 44 to DH >> 27 MU >> USN

PZ 468 Delivered Nov 44 to DH >> 248 Sqn Dec 44 >> 254 Sqn

PZ 469 Delivered Dec 44 to 27 MU 

PZ 470 Delivered Jan 45 to 27 MU

 

I can only find evidence that 13 of the 18 Tsetse Mosquitos saw action. I don't have the exact dates for the the handful that 248 Sqn handed over to 254 Sqn (a Beaufighter squadron where Tsetse Mosquitos made up a special flight). The asterisks indicate those flown by the crews of 618 Sqn attached to 248 Sqn as chronicled by Des Curtiss in A Most Secret Squadron.

 

 

True, these are 18 numbers that were produced as XVIII (I did not check the registration numbers one by one). I also have excel sheets with lots of mosquito statistics (not compiled by me, I am not that type) that show 18 XVIIIs. Those are probably all come from the same sources (Sharp and Bowyer, etc). I am trying to find where I read about a few FBVIs that were converted and thus appear in the production lists as FB.VIs. 
 

There was a great demand for VIs and thus DH were allowed to produce only a handful of XVIII’s at the expense of VIs (according to Sharp & Bowyer). It is possible that a handful of additional VIs could be spared at a later time and thus were converted after coming off of the production and being registered as VIs. I’ve never seen registration numbers, but this is the reason that some sources claim 23 or 27 total XVIIIs instead of 18. Again, I am not the type to keep lists of such things and I can’t tell how reliable these claims are.

[bart]

Some interesting info surfacing in this thread.

 

Just to throw a spanner in the works so to speak, I was reading on the ED discord yesterday and the conversation was about the infamous bulged bomb bay doors. Folk were talking about what version we were to expect in regards to the bulged doors and most agreed it's probably going to be a TSETSE version and ruled out that we would be getting a bomber version due to the vast differences in the airframe. Then along came BIGNEWY and said "the bulged bomb bay doors were a feature of the bomber version!". As you can imagine this blew the doors clean off their hinges on the new theory that we were getting the TSETSE!. Most took this comment as a hint of a bomber version!. Now take this with a pinch of salt, I'm only repeating here what I read, and make of it what you will, but it may be worth keeping an open mind for now!

 

Meanwhile, hopefully we'll get some news next week....this is dragging on now! the anticipation is killing me lol.

Edited August 7, 2021 by bart

[Mogster]

I find in hard to believe that ED are going to ship several Mosquito versions. The Molins FB VI I can imagine as it seems it wasn’t that different to the regular FB VI. The bomber version though was quite different with a different cockpit, additional crew station for the bombardier, bombsight(s) engines etc etc.

 

We’ll see…

[Bozon]

58 minutes ago, Mogster said:

I find in hard to believe that ED are going to ship several Mosquito versions. The Molins FB VI I can imagine as it seems it wasn’t that different to the regular FB VI. The bomber version though was quite different with a different cockpit, additional crew station for the bombardier, bombsight(s) engines etc etc.

 

We’ll see…

How about an AI bomber version?

[Krupi]

8 minutes ago, Bozon said:

How about an AI bomber version?

 

Perhaps it will be AI for the bomber position?

[Robi-wan]

10 hours ago, Bozon said:

Those are probably all come from the same sources (Sharp and Bowyer, etc). I am trying to find where I read about a few FBVIs that were converted and thus appear in the production lists as FB.VIs. 

 

I'm always looking for better sources. The De Havilland production database [edit the link] only lists the same 18 as Sharp & Bowyers.   Roy Conyers Nesbit in The Strike Wings mentioned 27 Tsetse Mosquitos.

 

Graham Simons in Mosquito: The Original Multi-Role Combat Aircraft has these 16 listed:

FB.Mk.XVIII Powered by two Rolls-Royce Merlin 21, 23 or 25 engines driving three-bladed Hydromatic propellers, this variant was a ground-attack and anti-shipping fighter-bomber. First flew 8 June 1943. Fitted with Molins 6-pounder 57mm gun. Production: HJ732 - Prototype. Converted from FB.Mk.VI Series I; MM424-MM425; NT200, NT224, NT225, NT592-NT593, PZ251-PZ252, PZ300-PZ301; PZ467-PZ470.

 

I quibble with his information regards the motors. I think they all had Merlin 25s. He also omitted HX902-904. Additionally NT592 (assigned to No. 85 and No. 141 Sqns) and NT593 (assigned to No. 157 Sqn) were NF.30s.

 

 

Bowman in De Havilland Mosquito has his own production appendix listing these 25:

HJ732

HX902-HX903-HX904

MM426-MM427-MM428-MM429-MM430-MM431

NT200-NT220-NT224-NT225-NT592-NT593

PZ251-PZ252-PZ300-PZ301-PZ346-PZ467-PZ468-PZ469-PZ470

 

He says MM424-MM425 are both FB.VI while MM426 to MM431 are shown as FB.XVIII. There is reason to quibble with this as well. Looking at this extract from the De Havilland database, MM426-429 didn't serve with Coastal Command squadrons.

 

 

Nor did NT200 (No. 21 Sqn) fly with Coastal Command. He repeats IMO the error regarding two NF.30s

 

 

The PZ series agrees with the DH database and Sharp & Bowyer. The only squadron ORBs where I've found reference to FB.XVIII is No. 248 and No. 254 Squadrons. The former being especially good.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm always happy to learn. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Robi-wan

[Bozon]

Thanks @Robi-wan this is really good info!

So basically you say that these sources that mention more than 18 XVIIIs incorrectly count some other mosquitoes. I can certainly believe that a mosquito listed as “missing from night intruder” (MM427) was not an VI that was converted to XVIII.

Good job sorting out the inconsistencies between the sources 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Bozon

[Robi-wan]

@Bozon thank you kindly.

 

My little bit of research about FB.XVIII numbers came from my uncertainty WRT the use of RPs. Martin Bowman's prolific writing about the Mosquito didn't make it an easy task. I was under the mistaken impression (as I'm sure a lot of folks are) that RPs were widely used by Mosquitos and that several Coastal Command squadrons were equipped with FB.XVIIIs. Then I began to piece together the very small number of FB.XVIIIs operational at any given time with No. 248 Sqn, the operational introduction of RPs (Nov 44) with No. 143 Sqn and the transfer of all FB.XVIIIs from No. 248 Sqn (Jan 45). I got sidetracked with Tsetse Mosquito numbers thus I'm still checking ORBs and books to confirm my premise that only Coastal Command Mosquitos used RPs.

[Bozon]

3 hours ago, Robi-wan said:

@Bozon thank you kindly.

 

My little bit of research about FB.XVIII numbers came from my uncertainty WRT the use of RPs. Martin Bowman's prolific writing about the Mosquito didn't make it an easy task. I was under the mistaken impression (as I'm sure a lot of folks are) that RPs were widely used by Mosquitos and that several Coastal Command squadrons were equipped with FB.XVIIIs. Then I began to piece together the very small number of FB.XVIIIs operational at any given time with No. 248 Sqn, the operational introduction of RPs (Nov 44) with No. 143 Sqn and the transfer of all FB.XVIIIs from No. 248 Sqn (Jan 45). I got sidetracked with Tsetse Mosquito numbers thus I'm still checking ORBs and books to confirm my premise that only Coastal Command Mosquitos used RPs.

Now that you mention it, all pictures of mosquitoes with rockets that I recall are of coastal command squadrons. There is only one reference to rocket use in 2nd TAF by Sharp & Bowyer (that I noticed) - they mention that 305 Sq. fired rockets on three nights in July: first fired on 25-26 July against trains in Normandy, and on nights of 27-28th and 30-31st (page 251).

 

It does seem that rockets were very rarely used by mosquitoes outside of coastal command. Thank you, I did not realize it was so rare.

 

Maybe this has something to do with mosquito operations as fighter-bombers being mostly at night? Maybe rockets were blinding the pilots and so they preferred to use bombs?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Bozon

[rkk01]

I have to say, that from my recent reading I have been surprised by just how much of the Mosquitos service was based around the dark hours.
 

The Bomber Command B variants of course  - PFF target marking, Light Night Striking Force… and nightfighters.  But the night intruder role was much bigger than I was aware of, especially the constant attacks in the German NF bases. My finding out more about 214 Squadron and other 100 Group Ops has been a real eye opener

[Robi-wan]

21 hours ago, Bozon said:

Now that you mention it, all pictures of mosquitoes with rockets that I recall are of coastal command squadrons. There is only one reference to rocket use in 2nd TAF by Sharp & Bowyer (that I noticed) - they mention that 305 Sq. fired rockets on three nights in July: first fired on 25-26 July against trains in Normandy, and on nights of 27-28th and 30-31st (page 251).

 

It does seem that rockets were very rarely used by mosquitoes outside of coastal command. Thank you, I did not realize it was so rare.

 

Maybe this has something to do with mosquito operations as fighter-bombers being mostly at night? Maybe rockets were blinding the pilots and so they preferred to use bombs?

 

 

LOL, let's look at the ORB. Indeed on three nights it looks like they carried bombs, flares, and ~3 RPs in July 1944. I suspect it was a test, and your conclusion about blinding is probably right. In August they did not carry any RPs.

 

 

 

 

The Summary portion of the ORB doesn't go into detail WRT this being a test. But I suspect it is. More research is in order. 

 

Edit: after reading all of No. 305 Sqn ORB from the time they switched to Mosquitos, looks like those three nights in Jul 1944 are the ONLY time the carried rockets. On some nights their "bomb load" was 2 sticks/bundles/clusters of flares, or a combination of flares and bombs, or just bombs.

 

2nd Edit: My reading of No. 613 ORB show that they did NOT use rockets. I still need to check No. 107 Sqn since along with No. 305 Sqn these squadrons comprised 138 Wing.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Robi-wan

[Robi-wan]

5 hours ago, rkk01 said:

I have to say, that from my recent reading I have been surprised by just how much of the Mosquitos service was based around the dark hours.
 

The Bomber Command B variants of course  - PFF target marking, Light Night Striking Force… and nightfighters.  But the night intruder role was much bigger than I was aware of, especially the constant attacks in the German NF bases. My finding out more about 214 Squadron and other 100 Group Ops has been a real eye opener

 

Indeed it is eye opening when so much of the mystique and love of the Mosquito is based upon the Amiens and Copenhagen raids. Even as 100 Group was increasing the number of Mosquito squadrons, No. 418 Sqn and No. 605 Sqn (still part of Fighter Command's 11 Group until Nov 1944) were increasingly tasked with Bomber Command support (or Flower) missions. 

 

 

[Mogster]

On 8/4/2021 at 1:25 PM, Mogster said:

The few Molins Mosquitos do seem to have seen a fair amount of action been effective and popular with crews. It appears there was a rockets faction and a BFG faction within the RAF and the rockets faction won.

 

Presumably rockets and Molins would have been too heavy?

 

More

https://www.keymilitary.com/article/mosquito-added-bite

 

This article suggests Molins + RPs were a standard loadout. The Molins equipt Mossies had the outer 30 cals removed to reduce strain on the airframes.

 

[drmorrish]

Just my .02 but we need the B version with the level sighted bombing function more than we need a fighter bomber. This would also make MP dynamic stuff more interesting opportunities for escorts for runs against airports and radar stations etc. Fingers crossed we get a B version sometime in the future.

[zcrazyx]

having used the FB in multiplayer against AI and players it is in a rather strange place. 

It has the speed of a spitfire but not the manauvering potential. Has a load similiar to a mustang though with smaller bombs unless you run 4 straight bombs, where as the mustang can take both. has less secondary ordanance then a p47 but with similar primary ordanance. 

 

So against 1943 opponents it has a chance but against anything newer it struggles, the AAA being rather accurate does not help either as the inlines are particularly prone to being critically hit. 

 

A bomber version or Tsetse version would be really nice as the heavier cannon could be used on ships or tanks perhaps and the bomber version was capable of carrying a 4000lb cookie bomb which is a rather nice FU to the ai  . Even 150 octane or higher boost would be nice though i'm not sure what marks had such capabilty. 

if we did get a new varient much like how the 47 has an older one now, i would prefer to see the bomber one first, especially with the bulged bomb bay that has the bigger bomb load, it would add a nice change to mission role, being able to either chug down low with delayed fuse, or up at 20k ft with a bomb sight. (which would be amazing to model as i dont know any sim with a working bomb sight from ww2 that also lets you drop bombs)

As far as changes to the current mossie we have i think the most sorely needed feature is the fuzing as that 500lb bomb packs a punch big enough to do a lot of damage even with a fair amount of height. it would also allow a lower mission profile to help avoid getting smited by AI defenses.