54 bug being discussed in a competition ... unfortuntely with zero evidence provided

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

I really don't want to start anything so i will leave this thread after this post ,  but being honest i personally don't recall a period where the phoenix worked "perfectly well". 
It has been a 'topic' so to speak from the start. 

I also think that most of the issues are not new at all. It's just that on this F14 subforum they don't get any attention, and if something does pop up it's met with a lot of resisting F14 owners and quickly pushed aside. 
An example: I saw a post on a squadron discord where there was a discussion about the hornet '32 second' thing and another ECM bug i believe.
It was talked about in full openness. 
But as soon someone merely post a link to that (now locked) desync thread here, the post was removed minutes later and the poster banned. 
Turns out that that squadron is also test team for F14 i hear later....Stuff like that does not really help bringing bugs to light to say the least. 

As for the tact tournament: Every match that i have personally watched the MK60's kill count is much higher in absolute numbers. The 80's era analog MK60 is way over represented in kill count especially when considering a team has at most 2x F14's vs twice the F16's/hornets. 




 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[DD_Fenrir]

Nonsense. Your ascribing of that behaviour is a symptom of your issue with the a F-14, your attitude towards HB and the Owners of the Tomcat module; it reflects your own toxic filter, one that has been all too apparent from your very first posts in this part of the forums. 

[Skysurfer]

54 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

As for the tact tournament: Every match that i have personally watched the MK60's kill count is much higher in absolute numbers. The 80's era analog MK60 is way over represented in kill count especially when considering a team has at most 2x F14's vs twice the F16's/hornets. 




 

 

 

Ok but what metric are you using to measure this? Mere anecdotal evidence? I have seen and flown in TACT matches and most the time people eat long range, 60+ nm Pheonixes on the first press because they don't know what they are doing. Either that or they don't expect max range shots. Same applies to your usual airquake servers, it's usually new or unexperienced people dying to the Phoenix who don't respect the range enough and only defend once they get a launch warning. Or don't defend at all even in some cases, thinking it's way too far to be a factor. And guess what, the F-14 was literally made for BVR and those BVR shots - it's literally where its advantage lies. Same can be said about the F-15 or Mig-31 (if we had one flyable). 16's and Hornets fill a completely different role and have their streghts elsewhere, namely in avionics and great SA. 

[dundun92]

On 8/7/2021 at 2:42 AM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Last TACT match i watched all the kills except one were MK60 kills while there were only 2 F14's per team. (it was 6v6)
And this may be personal but to me it's just not fun to these un-notchable and un-outrunnable long range shots hit.

So you look at 1 match that had notable desync issues and then extrapolate AIM-54 OP? Yeah, no, thats not how it works. Im in no way saying the desync and stuff is acceptable, and IMO restricting the AIM-54 for competitive PvP isnt a bad idea for its current state, it does punish those who actually know how to defend missiles. But in general, people are not dieing to Mk60s because they actually knew how to notch and it desynced. Far more often, whether it desynced or not the target didnt know how to properly defend and ran into long range 54s, or attempted to outrun NEZ ones. So looking at TACT kills that are clearly pilot issues doesnt make a very valid point in general (not talking about the last match, but TACT matches as a whole)

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

 

[Katsu]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Nonsense. Your ascribing of that behaviour is a symptom of your issue with the a F-14, your attitude towards HB and the Owners of the Tomcat module; it reflects your own toxic filter, one that has been all too apparent from your very first posts in this part of the forums. 

 
Exactly this!!! this dude don't fly the F-14 and all that he do is this cruzade againt F-14's using "voices of my head" as source. 
He want that phoenix don't manuever, don't track targets, don't go far, and Tomcats drivers have to fight in a plane that had several disadvantages compared to other more modern aircraft in game without the only advantage that they have.

ATM every Phoenix could be easily notched A or C versions, you only die for a Phoenix if you don't know how to defend it.
 

[Skysurfer]

8 minutes ago, Katsu said:

 
Exactly this!!! this dude don't fly the F-14 and all that he do is this cruzade againt F-14's using "voices of my head" as source. 
He want that phoenix don't manuever, don't track targets, don't go far, and Tomcats drivers have to fight in a plane that had several disadvantages compared to other more modern aircraft in game without the only advantage that they have.

ATM every Phoenix could be easily notched A or C versions, you only die for a Phoenix if you don't know how to defend it.
 

 

Yup, if anything the SD-10 is currently probably a little too good to be true and the AMRAAM (C model) probably not good enough in terms of CCM and notch resistence (MPRF anyone?). I have had several amraams just be beamed and fly past behind the target or simply notched sub 5nm, well within the kinetic NEZ. And it's not like there is footage of a 54C hit a highly maneuvering target doing a last ditch spli S maneuver (famous VF-11 firings). The publically confirmed Iranian data on the early 54A's is also rather solid (keep in mind those were probably even downgraded A's).

[DD_Fenrir]

41 minutes ago, Katsu said:

 
....you only die for a Phoenix if you don't know how to defend it.
 

 

Quoted for truth.

[Kula66]

Knowing what to do and actually doing it under pressure, at the exact right time, without ripping the wings off, or crashing into the ground, etc are two very different things!

Edited August 10, 2021 by Kula66

[Katsu]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Yup, if anything the SD-10 is currently probably a little too good to be true and the AMRAAM (C model) probably not good enough in terms of CCM and notch resistence (MPRF anyone?). I have had several amraams just be beamed and fly past behind the target or simply notched sub 5nm, well within the kinetic NEZ. And it's not like there is footage of a 54C hit a highly maneuvering target doing a last ditch spli S maneuver (famous VF-11 firings). The publically confirmed Iranian data on the early 54A's is also rather solid (keep in mind those were probably even downgraded A's).

https://streamable.com/ztcb7n

[Kula66]

Great video ... did you see the 'desync' in that 54!
 

[Skysurfer]

13 hours ago, Katsu said:

https://streamable.com/ztcb7n

 

Yup. And that seemed to be an ACM shot even. 

[DoorMouse]

The Aim54 can absolutely pull 20g. People hear "it's less maneuverable irl" and then characterize like it's a 20 ton rocket or something.... They don't know what they are talking about.

 

Putting aside that noise, the maneuverability of the Phoenix is not in question, and has nothing to do with Desync... Again 90% of players hear this but have no idea what they are talking about.

 

There are two issues. 1) the state of the game today, all missiles have very poor network sync between shooter and target. I suspect the methods they use to do this are quite old and buried in the 20 year old code.... But what do I know. All I know is the results are poor.

 

2) the Aim54 CAN have issues like this 

 

https://gyazo.com/bdc8ff7a1ff793fa13433badf07ac7fd

 

Where the missile appears to be flying a complete different direction according to the target aircraft. 

 

So far all I've heard is that the mythical Missile API will fix this, but it's been years we have been hearing that. 

 

What we need is Heatblur to step up and figure out why this wasn't a problem a few patches ago (last year), and how it was introduced. 

 

It sounds like they are generally aware of it, but what would be more helpful is the community to submit track files, videos, or steps to reproduce it. Frankly I've never been able to do it myself, but I've seen a few videos and Instructions 

[Kula66]

When I asked a video similar to (2) on Discord, I was told that was from before Christmas ... is that from a recent test?

[GGTharos]

You need the other side's track as well.   The desync here isn't just the 54.

[Skysurfer]

Yeah if this is the serverside tacview then it's legit, if it's clientside then this is not what happened on the server.

[Reax178]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:42 AM, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

However in case of the F14 the problems are of a different nature.
Completely silent phoenixes due to desync or exploits, or 100% safety if you simply turn on your 'blinking ECM' are actual problems.  

Is the "blinking ECM" is really an issue with the F14 ? I already tried with a friend (who was in a f16) and he could lock me easily from 50 nm + at high altitude (both in TWS and RWS), even if i was "making the ECM blink" by pressing it on/off every seconds. It seems pretty far away from being the "100% safety exploit"

[Kula66]

@GGTharosThe one I saw had 2 videos, apparently of the same engagement, showing one hitting and one veering off.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Kula66

[Breakshot]

Is the "blinking ECM" is really an issue with the F14 ? I already tried with a friend (who was in a f16) and he could lock me easily from 50 nm + at high altitude (both in TWS and RWS), even if i was "making the ECM blink" by pressing it on/off every seconds. It seems pretty far away from being the "100% safety exploit"

F16 isnt affected by ECM at all, just yet.

There is nothing wrong with Tomcat ECM apart from the fact that it is itself not affected by other ECM emissions.

Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk

[DSplayer]

Also on the F-14, the ECM automatically "blinks" unlike other aircraft where it does a constant jam.

[Silverphinex]

I think the Blinking ECM is more of a combo of unfortunate things. First to my understanding the EW suite in the 14B is a reactive system not an always on Jammer like the Flankers wingtip pods. So to mirror the more realistic function that a reactive EW system would have HB made it where it only starts the music when the aircraft is hard locked. Tho i do not know exactly how EW works in DCS atm my understanding is that all jammers are just white noise with a chance to break the lock and that the more powerful the jammer the better chance you will break said lock. If i am wrong on any of these points please let me know

[Spurts]

26 minutes ago, Silverphinex said:

I think the Blinking ECM is more of a combo of unfortunate things. First to my understanding the EW suite in the 14B is a reactive system not an always on Jammer like the Flankers wingtip pods. So to mirror the more realistic function that a reactive EW system would have HB made it where it only starts the music when the aircraft is hard locked. Tho i do not know exactly how EW works in DCS atm my understanding is that all jammers are just white noise with a chance to break the lock and that the more powerful the jammer the better chance you will break said lock. If i am wrong on any of these points please let me know

That is "noise jamming", of which there is Barrage, Sweep, Spot, etc, and operate by raising the Noise floor so that the return Signal does not meet the Signal to Noise ration required to be considered a target.  There is also Deceptive Jamming, which breaks active locks.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

19 hours ago, Reax178 said:

Is the "blinking ECM" is really an issue with the F14 ? I already tried with a friend (who was in a f16) and he could lock me easily from 50 nm + at high altitude (both in TWS and RWS), even if i was "making the ECM blink" by pressing it on/off every seconds. It seems pretty far away from being the "100% safety exploit"

 

Here's the thread, i do not know if this has been fixed or not at this moment. 

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

 

Here's the thread, i do not know if this has been fixed or not at this moment. 

been fixed for several weeks now, do you like not look at patchnotes?

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

You're reaching in an attempt to be a meanie lol

 

The guy was asking about the ECM thing.
I merely pointed him to the thread where the whole thing is explained because from his post i gathered he does not really understand what it's about.