Why no VOR, ILS, or transponder in F18 Hornet

[SPS48A]

In real life is there some reason the US Navy has decided not to put a functional VOR system and ILS landing system in the F18 Hornet. No doubt a lot of training missions are flown over land and to civilian airports, and an ILS system is always nice to have in IMC. Seems that even during war it would be nice to be able to navigate to world wide available VOR stations and land IFR at any commercial airport. I watched a YouTube video of an F18 pilot declaring a fuel emergency in IMC and asking ATC for vectors to the nearest airport. The civilian controller vectored him to intercept the ILS localizer and he had to declare, "unable." The civilian controller did a great job of talking him down the glideslope safely but it would have been so much easier if the Hornet were equipped with a VOR system, an ILS system, and a transponder for that matter. Surely, for a $70 million aircraft another $5000 wouldn't make that much of a difference. They must of had some operational logic in mind when they made that decision. Any, in the know folks out there who might have insight into this decision?

[Tholozor]

The Hornet has VOR capability, it's only normal ILS it doesn't have (at least on U.S. models). Tune the frequency on one of the radios and use the ADF switch on the UFC to select the radio to use for VOR.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Tholozor

[Hulkbust44]

Any military field they'd fly out of would have a TACAN becon. STL Lambert int airport here has a TACAN too because of Boeing. NAS's would also have the ICLS that of course the Hornet can use.

Mobius708


Our Hornet in DCS is also missing the radar beacon function. (BCN on UFC)

I know very little about it but I'm sure someone here could shed a bit of light in it.

Mobius708

[SPS48A]

4 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Any military field they'd fly out of would have a TACAN becon. STL Lambert int airport here has a TACAN too because of Boeing. NAS's would also have the ICLS that of course the Hornet can use.

Mobius708


Our Hornet in DCS is also missing the radar beacon function. (BCN on UFC)

I know very little about it but I'm sure someone here could shed a bit of light in it.

Mobius708


 

I watched a video of a pair of F18's flying into LAX. Don't recall the mission, just training in Class Bravo airspace I guess. Very stressful for the pilots involved! I can't imagine flying into a major airport like LAX without mode C, VOR, and ILS capability. Hell I can't imagine flying an approach into LAX without a full FMS and autopilot!

4 hours ago, Tholozor said:

The Hornet has VOR capability, it's only normal ILS it doesn't have (at least on U.S. models). Tune the frequency on one of the radios and use the ADF switch on the UFC to select the radio to use for VOR.

 

I don't consider a nondirectional beacon capability as a VOR. To me that is a NDB. Granted you can tune in a VOR signal and get a direction. But, you can't select a radial and get CDI guidance to the VOR station.

[Weasel]

Wags stated some years ago that once the hornet is completed and the devs have some time and ressources left there will MAY be the possibility to use the ICLS also for airfields.

I would really love to have the possibility for an ILS approach on airfields in DCS, even this isn‘t realistic for a USN/USMC hornet

[Hulkbust44]

Wags stated some years ago that once the hornet is completed and the devs have some time and ressources left there will MAY be the possibility to use the ICLS also for airfields.

I would really love to have the possibility for an ILS approach on airfields in DCS, even this isn‘t realistic for a USN/USMC hornet

There is a mod for it already, and it passes integrity check. Does exactly that.

Mobius708

I don't consider a nondirectional beacon capability as a VOR. To me that is a NDB. Granted you can tune in a VOR signal and get a direction. But, you can't select a radial and get CDI guidance to the VOR station.

Hornet's can do mode C.

Mobius708

[Hulkbust44]

I don't consider a nondirectional beacon capability as a VOR. To me that is a NDB. Granted you can tune in a VOR signal and get a direction. But, you can't select a radial and get CDI guidance to the VOR station.

LAX literally has a VORTAC.

VOR and TACAN. Basically the same thing. Civil vs military.


(VOR uses VHF, TACAN uses UHF. Both use UHF for DME afaik.)
Mobius708

[Rick50]

3 hours ago, SPS48A said:

I watched a video of a pair of F18's flying into LAX. Don't recall the mission, just training in Class Bravo airspace I guess. Very stressful for the pilots involved!

 

 

Was it this one?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetstream_(TV_series)

 

In one episode the Canadian fighter pilots travel cross country from Cold Lake Alberta, down to LAX, partly to get experience in very busy civilian airspace while flying Hornets. I think it was also a one or two day relax time during the course, before the final bits.

[IvanK]

Australian,Canadian,Spanish,Swiss,Kuwaiti, Blue Angles and perhaps a few others have VOR and ILS installed replacing the USN ILS system ... its a customer option.

 

On those Hornets equipped VOR or ILS is selected using the AIDS push button on the HI top left button. Once selected other options of VOR or ILS are presented. If you want VOR you box VOR if you want ILS you box ILS. International DME is automatically paired by selection of VOR or ILS frequency. Freq selection is done via the UFC. You press the same UFC ILS function button. The UFC then displays VOR and ILS in the 2 top option windows. Colonise the option you want then allows VOR or ILS freq (which are VHF) to be entered. System is capable of back course approaches as well.

 

Steering for VOR is the same as for TACAN. ILS is almost the same as for the USN ILS system with the addition of marker beacon cueing that appears in the HUD as you pass each marker. ILS QDM is entered via the CSEL switch.... as is the desired radial for VOR course line steering.

 

The USN old manual ILS tuning panel on the left console is still strangely present (though non functional) on those Hornets fitted with VOR/ILS.

 

It would be a great "option" to have in DCS ... perhaps tied with the nationality you select in FMB.

 

Its an Old image from the last century   as evidenced by the map ... what the VOR,ILS and International DME steering options looked like in an RAAF FA18A. This was before the AIDS legend was next to the top left HI button.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by IvanK

[SPS48A]

1 hour ago, Rick50 said:

 

 

Was it this one?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetstream_(TV_series)

 

In one episode the Canadian fighter pilots travel cross country from Cold Lake Alberta, down to LAX, partly to get experience in very busy civilian airspace while flying Hornets. I think it was also a one or two day relax time during the course, before the final bits.

Yep, here is is on YouTube as well.  

 

[Bunny Clark]

The Hornet has full civilian ATC transponder capability, it's built into the IFF system. Military Mode 3C IFF is interoperable with civilian transponders and the 4-digit squawk code can be set with the IFF button on the UFC (which isn't modeled in DCS).

 

TACAN is partially interoperable with VOR if you do the correct frequency to channel conversion. Quite a few major airports around the US have VORTAC systems which operate as co-located VOR and TACAN beacons. Overall this functionality wasn't considered to be critical for the Hornet because of its waypoint based-navigation system which does not need to rely on beacons to navigate to a fixed location. 

[Bremspropeller]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:21 AM, IvanK said:

It would be a great "option" to have in DCS ... perhaps tied with the nationality you select in FMB.

 

 

+1!

[drPhibes]

On 8/6/2021 at 12:10 AM, Bunny Clark said:

TACAN is partially interoperable with VOR if you do the correct frequency to channel conversion.

 

Not really. TACAN is compatible with DME (TACAN is a DME system with the bearing waveform modulated onto the ranging pulses), but no part of a VOR is compatible with TACAN.

[Frederf]

Tactical fighters have limited space and other resources to accommodate equipment. USN F-18s get by with TACAN and ICLS (and ACLS) because that is necessary and sufficient for their needs. Interoperability with civilian navaids is deemed of little value. In some cases, Blue Angels, foreign customers the F-18s are equipped with non-naval navigation equipment.

 

TACAN facilities must have both azimuth and distance capability. It's part of their design. They can operate in azimuth-only mode or distance-only mode (often airplane-airplane links) but when you see a TACAN on an aviation chart it's giving both. The azimuth component of TACAN is only on military craft. The distance component of TACAN is civilian DME. All civilian navigation equipment which does distance measuring is utilizing military DME technology.

 

Civilian navaids in their basic form: NDB, VOR, ILS are purely directional in nature without any distance ability. Expanded civil service may sometimes include DME like NDB-DME, VOR-DME, ILS-DME or DME-only facilities. TACANs and VORTACs (which are just combined VOR-TACANs) have DME ability. TACANs may or may not be usable by civilians as usually the civil radio equipment can only use some of the DME channels.

 

Often civil radio equipment will link two or more radio frequency services according to a single setting. For example when you tune 110.3 MHz ILS localizer the system also tunes the glideslope radio to the appropriate glideslope frequency paired with that localizer frequency (I think about 400MHz if I remember). Just like ILS localizer and ILS glideslope most VOR equipment will also attempt to tune the paired DME frequency associated with that VOR frequency. Not all airplanes, some which are old or low cost won't have the DME radio anyway. This is why basic IFR equipment was 2 radios; you were expected to utilize two crossing radials for fixes. Also common is the ability to tune the DME radio separately not linked to another radio's frequency setting. You can do some tricks like monitor the distance to one navaid and the bearing to another by having control over both frequencies independently.

 

And lastly this frequency-pairing behavior can sometimes be exploited to get DME service when the primary navigational equipment is fictional. For example you see a 010X TACAN on your chart. You can't get azimuth to this station with anything in your Cessna but you might be able to get DME. So you look up a chart which says that 10X TACAN is frequency paired with 999 VOR (I don't have real numbers). So you set your VOR receiver to 999. Your navigation instrument which shows azimuth won't work but you'll get distance because the DME radio was tricked to using the DME frequency of the TACAN. This doesn't always work. If the TACAN doesn't have a paired frequency for your VOR radio (about half of them don't) then you're out of luck.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Frederf

[Tholozor]

Paired TACAN/VOR frequencies can be found here: https://www.ntia.doc.gov/legacy/osmhome/redbook/4d.pdf