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"AIM 120 AMRAAM is an FC3 missile" - The hopes and dreams of a community for a full fidelity missile model


Im_TheSaint

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PLS target size and RCS size modelling.

PLS missiles which dont go off the rail dumb when I have a lock

PLS missiles which have correct PK/R modelling.

PLS a full fidelity missile native do DCS, 120 Bs and Cs are FC3 by all standards of virtual modelling. They aren´t full fidelity. We need a full fidelity misisle. Same goes for red force.

 

PS: C7 PLS ?!?!?!?

Its a block 50 viper and a block 20 hornet game.

They are supposed to have propper missiles, especially since DCS is now moving forward now. And the reason why I  am begging today is that I dont wake in 2022 with meteors phoenixes and SD10s being finished fully and debugged, and 120s are still FC3 missiles.


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13 minutes ago, Im_TheSaint said:

Its a block 50 viper and a block 20 hornet game.

No it is definitely not, DCS is a sandbox covering many eras....not just F-16 and F-18.

I understand the 120 still has room for improvement, as of now they aren't actually that bad anymore. Lately I've been enjoying almost perfect 1-1 "kill per amraam" ratio. As of recently I have never had a situation where an AIM-120 has gone dumb off the rails. Just maintain lock and fire at the correct ranges and they'll hit. Too far and the bandit just evades them. I suggest you download tacview, it's very good at teaching you how to fight, you just review your flight at the end of each sortie so you can learn where you went wrong. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Im_TheSaint said:

And the reason why I  am begging today is that I dont wake in 2022 with meteors phoenixes and SD10s being finished fully and debugged, and 120s are still FC3 missiles.

As far as I'm aware, the AIM-54 still has it's issues (someone correct me on this). While the SD-10 uses similar coding to the AIM-120 (at least this is how I understand it). This is why when the AIM-120 was suffering from the bug that made it go for chaff, the SD-10 was suffering with it.

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I agree. And there is a lot more than that to model AIM-120 even is semi realistic way (semi realistic = using only declassified data).

Like MPR / HPR radar modes, dynami lofting, way more parameters and shoot cues, more sophisticated (classified) guidance logic, autopilot, mid course update and so on.

Right now firing an AMRAAM is like throwing a dart, maybe it's going to hit in such conditions, maybe it 's going to miss, who knows? Maybe i should remember at least MAR in every conditions?

 

Another thing is we should remember this are all strictly classified systems, it can be done better and more in depth then it is right now in DCS (and i assume the developers plan to do some rework), but it will never be possible to model as realistic as let's say AIM-7 Sparrow, for obvious reasons.

 

 

There is an old tutorial and even this is not realistic, it shows ONLY non-classified elements.



Removed other sim reference - bignewy

 

 

( But it may be possible the developers are obliged not to disclose even non classified elements and it will never br possible to represent AMRAAM even in semi realistic way. I don't know.)

 

EDIT: a propos Phoenixes and Meteors.

Phoenix is being reworked to use the new missile API and it will be way less effective and way more realistic and in depth

Meteor, i don't think it will be in DCS and even if, i don't believe it will have capabilities even close to the real missile, it could be just a longer legs AMRAAM

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35 minutes ago, kseremak said:

Meteor, i don't think it will be in DCS and even if, i don't believe it will have capabilities even close to the real missile, it could be just a longer legs AMRAAM

We will get the Meteor, not confirmed tho but since it isn't under any disclosure anymore. The German EF-2000 (what we are getting) is using it officially now in the beginning in 2021.

I  can't see any Reason why we wouldn't get it in DCS. It isn't that maneuverable as the 120 so if you fly in curves you can easlily evade it.

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7 hours ago, TrikeFighter said:

I  can't see any Reason why we wouldn't get it in DCS

It most likely won't because of classified info. If it does make it to DCS, I do hope True Grit has access to said information.

You must understand that in order for something to be simulated accurately in a flight sim. Developers need a lot of information, information that might be classified and not for the public to see. This is the primary thing that stops ED from making something like an F-35 and we have modules like the F-18 and F-16 that are from around the mid 2000s era.

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6 minutes ago, Sajarov said:

Whinning starts again.

Booooring!

Learn to fight against competent enemies instead of fight obsolete fighters.

 

Well, that might be difficult seeing as peer REDFOR is as good as basically off the table at this point.

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9 hours ago, TrikeFighter said:

 

I  can't see any Reason why we wouldn't get it in DCS. It isn't that maneuverable as the 120 so if you fly in curves you can easlily evade it.

 

With all respect, I'm not even going to say you are wrong, but instead i'll say you cook that up.

Without the data which we'll never see, we can never say one of the two very similar missiles is more maneuverable than the other 🙂

 

If anything, real life pilots talking about the Meteor missile, stating it's lot MORE maneuverable than AMRAAM because it still has the propulsion in the final phase of the interception, when AMRAAM has reduced maneuverability because, except the first few seconds, it just glides to the target without any propulsion. And having the thrust even right before the impact is a big deal.

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14 hours ago, Im_TheSaint said:

...and the reason why I  am begging today is that I dont wake in 2022 with meteors phoenixes and SD10s being finished fully and debugged, and 120s are still FC3 missiles.

 


That's why you should fly "Red" fighters exclusively. The R-27R/ER were crap (compared to AIM-120) since the AMRAAM's upgrade, so after a while you get used to it. For me, the Meteor will just be an AMRAAM on steroids, but for you guys (shooting Slammers), it might be time to adjust.

Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH 😉

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  • ED Team

work on data link / ins remains and is high priority. 

 

But if you think there is a problem you will need to provide unclassified data that something is wrong. 

 

We are not interested in balance, its about getting as close to real world as possible. 

 

thanks

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Im a competetive player bro. Dont tell me to get good  I did.
Oh, sorry, do you fight in a Mig-29?
For me, it looks like you just want to win, easily, without effort and instant satisfaction. That's a reflection of our society.

If you wanna be competitive, be good, as they told you, play with the Soviet junk for s while.

It is easy to be competitive fighting against rusty and old obsolete Soviet junk. It is most rewarding when you turn that into a fighting machine.


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:megalol:

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On 8/10/2021 at 11:44 AM, Im_TheSaint said:

Im a competetive player bro. Dont tell me to get good 😄 I did.

 

Is there even such a thing as "competitive players" in DCS now? Maybe I'm picking on, but this sentence sounds a bit cockily.

 

I could imagine "competitive players" in WW2 warbirds, Korea or Cold War jets when you actually have to have the skill - which take many months - and most things depend on the pilot, the things he is doing manually, putting the thing on the thing, firing guns or some simple rear aspect position requiring IR missiles, controlling an aircraft by manual flight control system etc. Hell even late Cold War like Tomcat you have to work hard and really know what you are doing to make a good use of the raw radar system. Or support Sparrow/R-27 missile all until the hit.

 

But how could the AMRAAM exchange be a competitive activity? What is to compete about here? It's all too simple to be better than the other guy. You accelerate, press the button before MAR and run. You have roughly 50% chance to win.

I've been doing that for slightly more than a year, sometimes it was more fun, sometimes less, but i would never name it a competitive activity.

Or maybe it's not even an AMRAAM exchange, but as @Sajarov said, the swift and effortless execution of the 1980s MiG-29 with totally different era AMRAAM armed 2007 F-16?

 

Developers are modeling what they are allowed to model. Remember all the details of the AMRAAM and similar modern missiles are classified. What man can find on "Wikipedia" or other publicly available www pages is mostly BS, speculations or insignificant parameters.

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5 minutes ago, bies said:

Is there even such a thing as "competitive players" in DCS now?

When there is skill involved there can be competition when people compare their skills. This is true in combat in DCS regardless of what plane you are flying. Now obviously, there is very little skill involved in splashing an AI Mig-21 with an AIM-120C-7. There is really talk of skill and competition when you match a human in an F-18 vs a human in another F-18, F-16, F-14 and so on. PVP is a thing and is a place where people testing their skills against the skills of other people. Warbirds tests pilot's ability to BFM, Modern aircraft test pilot's ability to do BVR, splash the enemy and come home in 1 piece.

 

10 minutes ago, bies said:

It's all too simple to be better than the other guy. You accelerate, press the button before MAR and run. You have roughly 50% chance to win.

This statement can't be anymore wrong. The challenge to BVR is knowing when to shoot and when to skate or to banzai or being able to quickly recommit without sacrificing too much energy to try and regain an advantage in the fight. Do you shoot early for a posturing shot? Do you wait a little and lit the bandit get closer for a more lethal shot but risking yourself more? What's my escape plan? What direction do I crank to? So many things are happening in such a short amount of time. BVR is a different kind of skill set which people can compete in.

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On 8/11/2021 at 7:57 AM, bies said:

But how could the AMRAAM exchange be a competitive activity? What is to compete about here? It's all too simple to be better than the other guy. You accelerate, press the button before MAR and run. You have roughly 50% chance to win.

I've been doing that for slightly more than a year, sometimes it was more fun, sometimes less, but i would never name it a competitive activity.

That statement is so wrong on so many levels, and TBH it just shows your ignorance on the issue. You clearly havent even put any effort into trying to coordinate an effective 4, even 2 ship of AMRAAM carriers in BVR, and figuring out how to execute a tactic that allows you to exploit the enemies mistakes and make as few as possible yourself. Because if you had, you would certainly not make the above statement. Its as far from "simple" as it gets. Again, like I pointed out in the other thread, this whole idea that 80s combat is somehow more "skill based" and requires so much effort is just, wrong.

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On 8/11/2021 at 8:57 AM, bies said:

 

But how could the AMRAAM exchange be a competitive activity? What is to compete about here? It's all too simple to be better than the other guy. You accelerate, press the button before MAR and run. You have roughly 50% chance to win.[/quote]

If this were true online would be completely different. In fact real life combat would be different. Why train? The pilot doesn't matter.

 

BVR is competitive in the same way WWII dogfights are. Skill matters and skill determines the winner. You have to build up and maintain SA, coordinate with allies, come up with an attack plan, and execute it. Head to head missile jousting is the simplest way to perform BVR, but you obviously want to avoid it to better your chances at winning. Why allow the enemy to be able to shoot at you?

 

I completely respect your preference for earlier eras of air combat, and I also enjoy SARH missiles and gun fights, but the modern age isn't as different as you think it is. The details have changed but AMRAAM fighters are still trying to outfly their enemies just like gun fighters did.

 

On 8/11/2021 at 8:57 AM, bies said:

I've been doing that for slightly more than a year, sometimes it was more fun, sometimes less, but i would never name it a competitive activity.

Or maybe it's not even an AMRAAM exchange, but as @Sajarov said, the swift and effortless execution of the 1980s MiG-29 with totally different era AMRAAM armed 2007 F-16?

Even that 80's MiG-29 is a threat to 2007 F-16. The nice thing about flying online is that you can find adversaries that are smarter than the AI. Good pilots don't charge head on into an unfavorable situation. They won't give you an effortless kill. The MiG is certainly at a disadvantage 1 on 1, but it's not helpless. This is why DCS is still perfectly playable despite imbalanced sides in single and multiplayer.

 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 8:57 AM, bies said:

 

Developers are modeling what they are allowed to model. Remember all the details of the AMRAAM and similar modern missiles are classified. What man can find on "Wikipedia" or other publicly available www pages is mostly BS, speculations or insignificant parameters.

Not all the details, there is some information available, and as ED has shown there are also ways to produce reasonably accurate data that is not readily available (CFD, etc). There is a middle ground between perfect accuracy and speculation.

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