requested Proposal for VR head limits implementation

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, Nealius said:

So who regulates swiveling office chairs, then?

It’s not an issue about swiveling. 

26 minutes ago, Nealius said:

TrackIR boundaries, yes they are inconsistent and they can also be edited in a lua file to be limitless. I've done so on many occasions for video footage.

Can this pass the integrity check in MP? My guess is no. 

[pete_auau]

On 11/26/2021 at 2:59 AM, Gunfreak said:

So anyone who plays VR will sometimes find their head outside the cockpit, it's is annoying, but in some planes, it's quite imersion breaking, flying the 109k for the first time today, I had to really be careful or my head would be outside the cockpit half the time, this kinda limits how well you can track  enemies in a fight when you feel you have to limit your movments a lot to stop yourself from gonig outside all the time.

have  you tried  pressing the  re center  option it  will bring  your  head  back  to  center  again

[horstweihrauch]

Please leave it without boundaries. Too much fun leaning the head out oft cockpit in the warbirds and hearing the loud engine

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Can this pass the integrity check in MP? My guess is no.

It used to pass IC. I haven't played a public server in about 6 months, so my info on that is somewhat old. 

  

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not an issue about swiveling.

Not for your specific argument, no. But you aren't the only person in this thread, and that isn't the sole argument for view limits. That's why I addressed both the "unfair advantage" camp and the "immersion" camp....

Edited November 27, 2021 by Nealius

[SharpeXB]

36 minutes ago, Nealius said:

It used to pass IC. I haven't played a public server in about 6 months, so my info on that is somewhat old.

That’s surprising because it means you could probably create a snap view completely outside the canopy. Maybe that’s something which needs to be looked at. 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Nealius said:

If it's an immersion issue, then we have full control of our own heads and can simply not stick them through the canopy glass. [...] Problem solved.

That you can avoid the problem does not solve the problem. I can tell you the same - if you get sick don't use VR.

It's a simulator and it should not be physically possible for the pilot to move his head through the canopy. It's unrealistic. It's a bug. It's a cheat.

[TKu]

In my humble opinion, there are other and more important priorities for VR to work on.

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

That you can avoid the problem does not solve the problem. I can tell you the same - if you get sick don't use VR.

That is not even near equivalent. Head movement can be controlled, and totally by choice. You can choose to not stick your head out the glass. Motion sickness cannot be controlled without medication, and is not a choice. The only reason the head limit (or lackthereof) is a problem is because the user is doing something wrong. Are you saying that those with motion sickness from VR limits should be denied the ability to play VR just because you can't control your own head? How arrogant. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Nealius

[draconus]

9 minutes ago, Nealius said:

That is not even near equivalent. Head movement can be controlled. Motion sickness cannot (without medication).

But it all does not apply to you since you don't hit the limits, right? So what's your business here? Block someone else's wish?

And yes, using VR is also your choice.

Edited November 27, 2021 by draconus

[upupandaway]

Following this line of argument, freedom of movement for TIR should be massively limited, because it´s much harder scanning your rear quadrant with VR goggles.

You siad it yourself - it needs to be optional and I think it´s not worth the effort. There are more important problems or features for DCS.

Edited November 27, 2021 by upupandaway

[draconus]

7 minutes ago, upupandaway said:

There are more important problems or features for DCS.

Now go and say that in every wishlist thread if you think it's any argument.

[Knock-Knock]

So because there is a small percentage taking advantage of this, a small percentage feel its destroying their game and putting them at a disandvantage, so the rest have to suffer limits and nausea? Cancel culture much?

 

We should disable all axis inputs, cause there are people playing this game with a keyboards only.
We should lock the fps to 30, limit the draw distance to low, and set forrest level to 0, cause there are some that cant get better performance than this.
And lastly, we should remove axis inputs for view around the cockpit, cause there are people just using buttons and keys to look around.

If you have to stick your bloody head out the canopy to 'win', then you have lost already. I mean come on, how big is this issue really? I think you are just finding excuses for your own losses.

[Gunfreak]

7 hours ago, pete_auau said:

have  you tried  pressing the  re center  option it  will bring  your  head  back  to  center  again

That's not the problem,  the problem is when I turn my head to find enemies behind me, my head goes outside. 

[schmiefel]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

That's not the problem,  the problem is when I turn my head to find enemies behind me, my head goes outside. 

That's the whole point. Normally 'check your six' means jinking left, right, up, down etc. to take a look at blind spot regions. Plus normally you have to have a good 3D SA. With the 'option' to look back through the backplate / seat or stick your virtual head out of a closed window this tactics become useless as well as sneaking up to one from the typical blind spots. In SP it doesn't matter because AI seems to have eyes in their back already and same goes for PvE MP. In PvP MP it really makes a big difference (like other tricks with not limited to the cockpit views).

[cfrag]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

It's unrealistic. It's a bug. It's a cheat.

 Fair enough. If I may, please let me look at these points individually

• It's unrealistic [putting your head outside the cockpit]
  Definitely. As are many other playability compromises made in DCS, not least of which you don't have to re-purchase the module after you crash it, are allowed to fly a fighter jet without being rated for it, or being able to field-repair a seriously dinged-up bird in three minutes flat. Merely being unrealistic does not imply a show-stopping defect, it can also be a conscious design decision to facilitate or broaden the appeal of a product. Was it a conscious design decision? From the VR SDK framework yes; from DCS's standpoint most probably not. 
   
• It's a bug
  Perhaps. In my book it's an unintended consequence (still a bug, yes) of how VR currently works (the camera follows the HMD that exactly follows the movement of the player's head; differences in movement between camera and HMD can induce nausea). Bugs abound, and are a fact of life in all software. So to me, the real question revolves around a bug's severity: is is a show-stop, a major bug or a nice-to have? We probably disagree in this respect. To me, it's a minor issue as it doesn't break my immersion, and I never fly warbirds online. YMMV.
  That being said, clipping the camera's movement to a box or arbitrary volume is trivial. The fact that ED haven't done so speaks volumes to me of the fact that the underlying issue is anything but trivial.
   
• It's a cheat
  [with 'cheat' being defined as an unfair exploit of a game's limitation] For Warbird MP it can feel like a major cheat if you are on the receiving end of this exploit, so it definitely is an issue there. If you cheat yourself in single play, that's on you and you alone, and I won't judge [I'd even argue that if you manage to be annoyed by cheating yourself, you have more pressing needs to attend ]. From my own experiments (limited as they may be, I may have overlooked a module where this can be an issue), in modern aircraft you can't really use this as a cheat. 
   

Edited November 27, 2021 by cfrag

[draconus]

13 minutes ago, cfrag said:

 Fair enough. If I may, please let me look at these points individually...

Funny, you play DCS and don't know what simulation means. It simulates aircraft, its pilot and the world around it including other AI or player controlled units. It starts and stops whenever and wherever you wish. That's why you don't have to uninstall the game when your aircraft crashes, silly, nor anything bad happens to real you or those around in MP. Aircraft don't fly through the ground, trees or buildings but yet the pilot can move the head through objects in VR like a ghost. There's no place for such things within realms of this simulator. With TiR there mostly are limits - so the ED already thought of that and implemented it. Same they will do for VR, it just takes time. Sure there are some more unrealistic things and I would be glad to see them removed or at least make them optional, like the quick repairs and rearms.

If you think it's a non issue, it's not a cheat, nor a bug then I don't understand what's your business here? It simply doesn't concern you, right?

[Lt_Jaeger]

Just keep you heads in the damn cockpit, end of story. 

Even in the tiny 109 I'm able to not "break thru the glass", but if I want it, it happens. 

Long story short, one has to activly work the head outside,but it might just be me too immersed and scared to bump my head. 

[cfrag]

13 minutes ago, draconus said:

If you think it's a non issue, it's not a cheat, nor a bug then I don't understand what's your business here? It simply doesn't concern you, right?

My apologies, I must have spectacularly failed to get my point across. What I wanted to convey above was that I think that sticking-the-head-outside-the-cockpit thing probably is a bug, it can be used as a cheat, and therefore it can be an issue for some. I also believe that there is no easy fix, and I look forward to see how ED tackles this.

I want DCS to remain the definite VR killer app, bar none - the best show in town. I hope that my opinion adds to the general discussion; that is why I participate. And I hope that you can respect that, even if you don't agree. 

 

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

If you think it's a non issue, it's not a cheat, nor a bug then I don't understand what's your business here? It simply doesn't concern you, right?

Because, since it's a non-issue, not a cheat, and not a bug, there's no need to forcibly induce nausea in a significant portion of players by some hamfisted non-fix. We know for a fact that the “solution” advocated here causes problems — whether it fixes anything is unknown. So the question isn't one of concern but of figuring out if there even is an issue to address here that is worth actively causing that known problem and alienating those players.

And if it's an insignificant portion of players, then guess what? It's right back to being a non-issue that ED should not waste an ounce of time and manpower on, especially next to all the unrealism, bugs, and cheats afforded by other view control systems that should be attended to first since they have a vastly larger impact on everyone. And let's not hypocritically kid ourselves by saying that they don't have just as many advantages that they can exploit that VR players cannot.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Tippis

[Mars Exulte]

These wheezing grognards worrying about trivia like this is always amusing. ''Muhhhh vidya game''

[draconus]

46 minutes ago, Mars Exulte said:

These wheezing grognards worrying about trivia like this is always amusing. ''Muhhhh vidya game''

It is so glaring violation of world physics that it hurts eyes and screams for a fix or an option at least.

[CobaltUK]

5 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

That's not the problem,  the problem is when I turn my head to find enemies behind me, my head goes outside. 

My head NEVER goes outside of the cockpit. Is that because I have my VR restricted to the minimal boundary (chair i think) in steamvr settings or is it that I mostly use the fast jets I dont know.

Edited November 27, 2021 by CobaltUK

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

That you can avoid the problem does not solve the problem. I can tell you the same - if you get sick don't use VR.

It's a simulator and it should not be physically possible for the pilot to move his head through the canopy. It's unrealistic. It's a bug. It's a cheat.

And so is moving your head slightly to the left and looking completely over your shoulder… stop with your one sided arguments 

[Mars Exulte]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

It is so glaring violation of world physics that it hurts eyes and screams for a fix or an option at least.

  This just in... I'm being told video games make concessions for playability due to not being real life, more tonight at five. Shocking! Next up, really clean glass kills more pigeons annually than cats and what YOU can do to change this.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Mars Exulte

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, CobaltUK said:

My head NEVER goes outside of the cockpit. Is that because I have my VR restricted to the minimal boundary (chair i think) in steamvr settings or is it that I mostly use the fast jets I dont know.

 

It almost never happens in modern jets, not unless you do it on purpose. It does happen in the F86 to some degree,  but that's because your head is placed kinda strange in that plane.

And it can happen in most of the warbirds. But in the 109k your head will go through unless you actively work hard to avoid it. I have to like force my head down into my shoulders when I turn my head. Or I'll go through the canopy.