need track replay A10C II MAV IR Will Not Lock on Targets

[zippydoda]

I've seen this question on several threads - mostly older - and no clear resolution.  So not sure if it's a bug or the dreaded 'user error'.  So here we go....

• I have a fresh spawn in Nevada weapons practice.  
• All power is on for weaponry and targeting.
• MAV IR is active weapon according to HUD. and it's armed and ready.  
• The MAV page is SOI.
• I have a Narrow view (China Hat short)
• I have slewed the MAV seeker crosshairs directly over target area 
• I am well within range (the range doesn't matter no matter what it is) 
• TMS Aft Short to Ground Stabilize
• Slew crosshair directly over target and release - no lock.
• Switch back and forth between black and white hot - no difference.
• Switch back and forth between narrow and wide view - no difference. 

 

Sometimes it works sometimes not - on the same mission.  Because it works sometimes I do not believe it's user error unless there's some other configuration that increases or decreases the odds of a lock.  

 

Looking for ideas.  I'm following Chucks A10C II Guide and the A10C II Manual.  

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by zippydoda
Add info

[Yurgon]

Slewing the Mav seeker over a target should indeed get it to track. However, the target needs to have sufficient contrast. If it doesn't, the Mav can't track.

 

The D and G model Mavericks with their infrared (heat) seekers have a typical tracking range around 6 to 7 nautical miles in DCS. Some targets can be tracked from farther away, in other cases you'll have to get closer. The CCD variants H and K typically need something around 3 to 5 miles; anything beyond is actually a pretty good result, at least in DCS.

 

However, slewing the Mav around is a pain; to me it feels like they always try to run away from my intended target. By far the preferred method is to acquire the target in the TGP or via some other sensor, and slave the Mav to it. Then keep hitting TMS Forward Short with Mav as SOI until it starts tracking.

 

If you don't have the luxury of using the TGP or maybe a markpoint, it's still good practice to slew the Mav onto the target, ground stabilize it, and then spam TMS Forward Short until it tracks. At least then it won't slew all over the place until it finally tracks.

[zippydoda]

Thanks Yurgon.  I'm in the process of reviewing/practicing all the targeting and weapons systems, so I'm trying to get to the point where, with a given targeting and weapon scheme, I can reliably perform the mission.  The 'reliable' part of this, at least using the MAV sensor for targeting - not so much and it's been driving me crazy thinking that I'm doing something wrong.  As you mentioned the TPG with Laser designation works more reliably, but it has more workflow and I'm trying to become proficient with  all the different combinations, but the MAV sensor is unreliable.  I can do almost exactly the same thing and get different results.  Pretty picky.  Oh well....    But now that I think about it with the 'new' TGP sensors there's probably no point in using the MAV sensor.  

 

I am using the ground stabilize feature - as you mention it's pretty difficult to get a lock without it, especially with moving targets.  

 

BTW what slew rate do you use on the MAV.  I'm leaving it at 5 until I can get the sensor in the general area, then switching to 9 for fine tuning.  

 

Thanks for your help.  

[Yurgon]

38 minutes ago, zippydoda said:

But now that I think about it with the 'new' TGP sensors there's probably no point in using the MAV sensor.

 

I think it makes sense to be proficient with all the weapons. TGPs can fail mid-flight, and depending on the mission and the scenario, there might not be one at all. Or you want to kill a bunch of targets quickly and efficiently, where the TGP would only slow things down.

 

40 minutes ago, zippydoda said:

BTW what slew rate do you use on the MAV.

 

I'm lazy, I hardly ever change it. And when I do, I usually do it in the wrong direction and make it more sensitive when I wanted it to be less so.

[Hammer1-1]

I always have trouble getting the maverick to lock my TGP target. I can get the crosshairs on, but once I make the AGM65 SOI, it starts to walk again. Irritating.

[Yurgon]

7 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I can get the crosshairs on, but once I make the AGM65 SOI, it starts to walk again. Irritating.

 

That shouldn't happen. Sounds like there's maybe an axis binding or a jittery pot causing this. I'd double check all axis bindings for the slew cursor and possibly add a bit of a deadzone and see if that helps.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Yurgon

[Hammer1-1]

Or maybe the gates arent collapsing on the target like they should be. I have to slew the maverick around just to get the gates to collapse on the target, even if I have it dead center in the seeker FOV. Its about 100% of the time I have to do this. Dont have this problem in the hornet either. Guess I worded that wrong the first time around...it doesnt walk off target, but I have to walk it off target to get the sensor to snap on target.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[Yurgon]

Oh, okay, that's perfectly normal then.

 

As I said above: Then keep hitting TMS Forward Short with Mav as SOI until it starts tracking.

[zippydoda]

Yeah - I change the slew rate to 9 so I can have a finer control over positioning.  TGP is not an issue - it's the MAV sensor mode I'm having problems with.  Anyway the crosshairs and gate are exactly on position but it won't get a lock much of the time.  Frustrating.  It's a TM Warthog HOTAS and it's only a year old so jittering etc is not an issue.  I had that with a less expensive joystick and replaced it.  

7 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Oh, okay, that's perfectly normal then.

 

As I said above: Then keep hitting TMS Forward Short with Mav as SOI until it starts tracking.

 

7 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Oh, okay, that's perfectly normal then.

 

As I said above: Then keep hitting TMS Forward Short with Mav as SOI until it starts tracking.

That works in TGP mode - not MAV sensor.  

 

Guys this is off topic so I won't ask for answers here as I know it's frowned upon - but I also have an unanswered question regarding the limited speed of this aircraft.  If you would search for that I would appreciate any thoughts.  

[Yurgon]

3 hours ago, zippydoda said:

That works in TGP mode - not MAV sensor.

 

Now I'm not tracking. The TGP is ground stabilized on its own. What do you mean with "TGP mode", and with "MAV sensor"? If you could refine the description in terms of SOI and SPI, that would make it a bit more clear.

 

If you could record a short track or a short video, this would probably help.

 

3 hours ago, zippydoda said:

Guys this is off topic so I won't ask for answers here as I know it's frowned upon - but I also have an unanswered question regarding the limited speed of this aircraft.  If you would search for that I would appreciate any thoughts.

 

You mean the one I already commented on 4 days ago? I wouldn't strictly call that question "unanswered", seeing as it has two answers.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Yurgon

[Frederf]

It's possible to use the Maverick as a sensor and not as a weapon. It should behave the same though.

 

TGP has much better range capability than the missile, especially at low light or thermal crossover times of day. It's common for pilots to be commanding track at 8-10-15 miles away and wondering why the missile isn't tracking. If you're using a sensor to slave missile to target LOS and it's accurate the seeker should not wander while slaved. For TGP cueing one simply repeatedly commands track until the track occurs. The missile should either be slaved to TGP LOS or autonomously tracking, neither of which should wander.

[zippydoda]

9 hours ago, Yurgon said:

 

Now I'm not tracking. The TGP is ground stabilized on its own. What do you mean with "TGP mode", and with "MAV sensor"? If you could refine the description in terms of SOI and SPI, that would make it a bit more clear.

 

If you could record a short track or a short video, this would probably help.

 

 

You mean the one I already commented on 4 days ago? I wouldn't strictly call that question "unanswered", seeing as it has two answers.

 

Using the TGP sensors to find and acquire targets vs using the Maverick's sensor for the same.  The MAV IR sensors can be ground stabilized - the TGP doesn't need that as you mentioned.  My issue is with using the MAV IR sensors - TGP is fine.  

 

A10-C post on speed - my notifications didn't show any responses to that - must not have been following it properly.  Thanks.  

4 hours ago, Frederf said:

It's possible to use the Maverick as a sensor and not as a weapon. It should behave the same though.

 

TGP has much better range capability than the missile, especially at low light or thermal crossover times of day. It's common for pilots to be commanding track at 8-10-15 miles away and wondering why the missile isn't tracking. If you're using a sensor to slave missile to target LOS and it's accurate the seeker should not wander while slaved. For TGP cueing one simply repeatedly commands track until the track occurs. The missile should either be slaved to TGP LOS or autonomously tracking, neither of which should wander.

Yes - as I mentioned previously I am studying all modes of targeting and weapon usage.  I know how to use TGP and the Mav sensor and they do not behave the same on my system - which is the point of this post.  It should - but it actually doesn't.  

Edited August 21, 2021 by zippydoda

[Frederf]

Maverick as sensor and Maverick as weapon should have identical track performance. TGP should not have identical performance to Maverick.

 

What I'm not seeing is any track or other quantitative info about the conditions of bugged missile performance.

 

Here's a track of getting a missile lock on a tank in that exact mission at 8.1nm with AGM-65D.

A10iiIIRMaverickTrack.trk

Edited August 21, 2021 by Frederf

[zippydoda]

I think we're crossing our wires here.  I'm using the IR  sensor capability of the Maverick to lock on the target and fire.  I'm not saying the TGP should be the same.  What I am noticing is that the Mav IR sensor mode often does not reliably achieve a lock even under the best of circumstances.  The TGP is more reliable in that regard, but the workload is heavier especially when working with multiple targets in a short period of time.  But never mind - not germane to my issue.   Anyway I think we've explored this about as far as it's going to go - thanks for your help with that Frederf!