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Eurofighter yes but F14D no


Rikus

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/21/2021 at 3:31 AM, Rikus said:

Eurofighter is a very new jet with lot of classified info, and even that will be developed.

 

So, why F14D can´t be done too?

 

Cuz they have access to the EF docs and NOT the 14D docs. 

 

On 8/24/2021 at 11:44 AM, WobblyFlops said:

We don't know how accurate the Eurofighter will be to begin with. 

 

Yeah lets not open that whole can of worms too early. 

 


Edited by Harlikwin
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On 8/25/2021 at 7:42 AM, DD_Fenrir said:

Here's how I reconcile the decision of the DoD;

 

1. Radar based stealth has been a requirement of 5th Gen and future designs

2. IRST technology is rapidly being developed as a viable counter to radar Stealth

3. of the US fighters of the 90's/2000's the F-14D is the only one equipped with an integrated IRST (and a reportedly pretty good one - was able to track F-22 at useful range in testing)

4. IRST capabilities now becomes something of a sensitive subject based on US reliance on radar stealth force multiplier strategy

5. F-14D IRST maybe 30 years old but if it works why give your opponents any clues what it is A. capable of (even 30 years ago), or B. potentially capable of given 30 years more development?

 

It's a good a reason as any to explain the clamp down, and as Tharos points out, their bloody right to.

 

Amazing how some here measure their computer game desires as more valuable than the security of those who might be called on to give their lives for our freedoms....

 

 

TBH, there is plenty in the public literature about IRST and capabilities of those systems. At best, range finding tech is what's not available at least in the specifics, and even there there is still plenty of information to make very good guesses about it and how to model it. (go look at submarines ZOMG, go learn math ZOMG etc.) 

 

Frankly the US has long been behind the curve on IRST stuff, so maybe thats why there is so much public info out there about it. And the soviets and Europe have been using advanced IRST's for a long time for various reasons.

Moreover there is plenty of literature out there on "IR stealth" coatings, and other techniques to lower IR signatures of AC to what extent can be done.

 

 

 

 

On 8/26/2021 at 3:43 AM, WobblyFlops said:

According to the guy who submitted the FOIA request, the IRST is the only piece of equipment that is still classified. So all those parts would have been redacted from the manual. The issue is that it's an item on the USML, which means that they won't release it to the public. The same thing goes for the A-6E manuals, those don't have any game changing tech (especially considering that those are mids 80s docs) and they still got it denied with similar reasoning.

 

 

 

Wow, thats mindblowingly stupid if true. Literally that system is using absolutely outdated tech by todays standards, and I could make that same statement a decade ago. But at the same time, the powers that be make "poor" decisions all the time.

 

 


Edited by Harlikwin

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8 hours ago, draconus said:

They don't have D-docs, that's the whole point.

 

Lol, typo on my part meant to say NOT the D docs.

 

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  • 5 months later...
  • ED Team

A reminder, please do not post real world documents or links to them here. 

Rule 1.16 

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:megalol: It's always amazing how often the subject of the F-14D is brought up again here. Although Heatblur has made his statement on this so many times...

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Yeah, it's been done to death that the F-14D IRST was too sensitive to have docs released under ITAR, since it is the basis of the LEGION/IRST-21.  And unless something changed since I last looked, the Tiffy being made does NOT have an IRST.

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On 3/10/2022 at 12:18 PM, Spurts said:

Yeah, it's been done to death that the F-14D IRST was too sensitive to have docs released under ITAR, since it is the basis of the LEGION/IRST-21.  And unless something changed since I last looked, the Tiffy being made does NOT have an IRST.

The funny part about that being that the general concepts and principles of how at least some of that IRST stuff is used are reasonably well known. But I guess for DCS you need what buttons to push as well. But passive 54C shots sound fun. 

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On 3/10/2022 at 8:18 PM, Spurts said:

Yeah, it's been done to death that the F-14D IRST was too sensitive to have docs released under ITAR, since it is the basis of the LEGION/IRST-21.  And unless something changed since I last looked, the Tiffy being made does NOT have an IRST.

Not true in the slightest. Not releasing the docs have absolutely nothing to do with IRST and sensitive tech and everything to do with ITAR, which doesn't care about sensitivity at all. NAVAIR will deny any FOIA request for virtually any platform newer than WW 2. Even the Vietnam era A-4 documents were denied due to ITAR. The IRST is still classified, so that doesn't influence the FOIA process at all, they can just redact that part of the manual. The real issue is that due to the incredibly strict enforcment of ITAR by the DoD, you cannot get your hands on aircraft related technical manuals with FOIA requests. The only legal way is museums like the NHHC but even that loophole will likely close soon. As the political climate shifts, the US DoD will have the same stance on military equipment as the Russian MoD.

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/18/2022 at 8:53 AM, Sajarov said:

Easy, Iran doesn't have Euro fighters.
When Iran retire their Tomcat Fleet, we will be able.to enjoy the 14D.


Sent from my M2102J20SG using Tapatalk
 

 

 

poor line of reasoning considering by that logic we shouldn't have a F14A or a F14B module either.

 

On 9/27/2021 at 10:15 PM, Harlikwin said:

 

 

Wow, thats mindblowingly stupid if true. Literally that system is using absolutely outdated tech by todays standards, and I could make that same statement a decade ago. But at the same time, the powers that be make "poor" decisions all the time.

 

 

 

 

as Harlikwin said. 

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On 5/23/2022 at 7:10 AM, Kev2go said:

 

 

poor line of reasoning considering by that logic we shouldn't have a F14A or a F14B module either.

 

 

as Harlikwin said. 

Well no, Iran indeed has the F14A so everything is known to them.

The Problem with the D is, they fear that Iran could somehow upgrade or modify theirs and they do not want that to happen afaik.

 

So his reasoning is not poor at all

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37 minutes ago, Badger1-1 said:

The Problem with the D is, they fear that Iran could somehow upgrade or modify theirs and they do not want that to happen afaik.

You can reverse engineer if you have the parts but not going just by the manual or a sim.

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On 8/23/2021 at 6:43 PM, Rikus said:

Thank you guys.

 

But for me is difficult to understando why NAVY say yes to Hornet, a much newer jet, also F16 and a NO for F14D.

 

Also for developer will be interesting, some people want more info in the HUD and newer weapons, so there are new customers.

 

Also actual customers could be potential clients too, with a discount code for having the A/B for example.

The Legacy Hornet is not much newer than the Tomcat or Viper
They all started Flying with the USN/USAF in 1974, and were obviously upgraded on their own paths.

Lot 20 Hornets at about 15-20 yrs old today, The F-16C as well, there are newer Lots exported to other countries, the Hornet/Viper were export programs from the start,
The Tomcat was not.

All USN Tomcats were either destroyed or or put on display with specific parts replaced with fake ones to stop parts from being illegally shipped to another Operator.

The Tomcat Manuals for the D are literally under lock and key, good luck getting a fully intact unredacted copy of any of the F-14D Manuals, Legally.

The Delta's in other Sims, A. do not use real data, and fake most of the systems, B. Do not have weapon systems modelled.

 

On 5/29/2022 at 4:52 AM, Badger1-1 said:

Well no, Iran indeed has the F14A so everything is known to them.

The Problem with the D is, they fear that Iran could somehow upgrade or modify theirs and they do not want that to happen afaik.

 

So his reasoning is not poor at all

They already have,
Last time I checked, their flightworthy tomcats now use Eastern Engines and Eastern Upgraded Avionics.


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1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

They already have,
Last time I checked, their flightworthy tomcats now use Eastern Engines and Eastern Upgraded Avionics.

 

I mean as much of a bogey man as Iran is. At this point even with upgrades their Tomcats are really aged out anyway, you can only get so many hours out of an airframe. Though I have no doubt that these days they stuff a more capable radar than an AWG-9 into that huge schnoz. 

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1 minute ago, Harlikwin said:

I mean as much of a bogey man as Iran is. At this point even with upgrades their Tomcats are really aged out anyway, you can only get so many hours out of an airframe. Though I have no doubt that these days they stuff a more capable radar than an AWG-9 into that huge schnoz. 

IIRC,
FCS, RWR, RADAR, INS, FCR (For R-27/R-73), HUD, ENGINES were all replaced for F-14AM (though the engines didnt happen until after Iran published images of the new AM Firing Russian Missiles (as they were not able to procure US/NATO Missiles).

Of 69, there's images of at least 26 Different Aircraft flying, the rest are likely being kept for parts, they only plan to keep them Active to 2030.

From what I remember from stories from troops in that area, IIAF used them mostly in low stress AWACS roles, and of course intercept if needed.
They didn't have enough certified pilots to fly all 69, so they likely flew a few dozen to the point where hours on the airframe got high, and they grounded those for parts and flew the lower hour airframes.

and dont ask for a F-14AM either, IIAF has been tight lipped about which Eastern Avionics they have replaced in the Tomcat.

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1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

IIRC,
FCS, RWR, RADAR, INS, FCR (For R-27/R-73), HUD, ENGINES were all replaced for F-14AM (though the engines didnt happen until after Iran published images of the new AM Firing Russian Missiles (as they were not able to procure US/NATO Missiles).

Of 69, there's images of at least 26 Different Aircraft flying, the rest are likely being kept for parts, they only plan to keep them Active to 2030.

From what I remember from stories from troops in that area, IIAF used them mostly in low stress AWACS roles, and of course intercept if needed.
They didn't have enough certified pilots to fly all 69, so they likely flew a few dozen to the point where hours on the airframe got high, and they grounded those for parts and flew the lower hour airframes.

and dont ask for a F-14AM either, IIAF has been tight lipped about which Eastern Avionics they have replaced in the Tomcat.

Thats gotta be a nightmare to keep flying at this point. 

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22 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Thats gotta be a nightmare to keep flying at this point. 

No different than keeping a '69 Chevy Chevelle Relevant while you got 2010 Corvette's in the Garage.

IIAF has nothing New, they are literally a Hand Me Down Military, Take away the Tomcats, and they have nothing to compete with surrounding nations.

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4 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

No different than keeping a '69 Chevy Chevelle Relevant while you got 2010 Corvette's in the Garage.

IIAF has nothing New, they are literally a Hand Me Down Military, Take away the Tomcats, and they have nothing to compete with surrounding nations.

Oh I get it, but sourcing/replacing/re-engineering parts must be a nightmare. 

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3 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Oh I get it, but sourcing/replacing/re-engineering parts must be a nightmare. 

cheaper than developing their own fighters. Remember the F-313, lmao.

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2 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

cheaper than developing their own fighters. Remember the F-313, lmao.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Once again, Iran has NO influence on the release of NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1A, the primary manual HB needs for the SMS pages and IRST/Radar data they need. What DOES have influence is the fact the AN/AAS−42 Infrared search and track system on the F-14D formed the basis for the F-35's new Legion targeting pod. If you release data on the F-14D's IRST then it could quite possibly give out the information to infer the performance of the Legion pod.

This is why you can get info of the F-4/F-14A's IRST but not the F-14D. 

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14 hours ago, Southernbear said:

Once again, Iran has NO influence on the release of NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1A, the primary manual HB needs for the SMS pages and IRST/Radar data they need. What DOES have influence is the fact the AN/AAS−42 Infrared search and track system on the F-14D formed the basis for the F-35's new Legion targeting pod. If you release data on the F-14D's IRST then it could quite possibly give out the information to infer the performance of the Legion pod.

This is why you can get info of the F-4/F-14A's IRST but not the F-14D. 



There is more than 1 reason the F-14D Manuals are still classified, and those reasons do not involve IIAF nor the IRST System.

PS the NAVAIR01-F14AAD-1A is already public, and that's not what HB Needs.

 

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Imho it would be just nice to get a late version of our Cats with the PTID und Sparrohawk HUD just to put her in the same Timeframe as the Bug and the Viper - could be done as upgrade the same way Ed did it with the A-10C Tank Killer II

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